At what ppm can you taste butane?

SkyHighLer said:

The ppm of residual solvent in an oil sample isn't equal to the ppm of residual solvent in the oil sample vaporized and diluted with air.

The residual standards are BS, at the actual concentration level the residuals are non-toxic, and undetectable to the unaided senses.

Click to expand...

Gray Wolf said:

Could you elaborate?

Click to expand...

Definition of elaborate

1 : planned or carried out with great care - took elaborate precautions
2 : marked by complexity, fullness of detail, or ornateness elaborate prose


I'm done elaborating.


GW, the table of odor thresholds you linked to states 1,200 ppm for butane. For your senses to experience 1,200 ppm of butane the BHO would need to have a butane residual of 15,900 ppm, assuming the 13.25x dilution factor from my presentation.

Also the 1,200 ppm odor threshold referenced is against a neutral background of pure nitrogen, not a vaporized terpene rich dab diluted with ambient air.

"Measurement of Odor Threshold by Triangle Odor Bag Method"

https://cschi.cz/odour/files/world/Measurement of odor threshold by Triangle Odor Bag Method.pdf



Could you respond?

SkyHighLer said:

Definition of elaborate

1 : planned or carried out with great care - took elaborate precautions
2 : marked by complexity, fullness of detail, or ornateness elaborate prose


I'm done elaborating.


GW, the table of odor thresholds you linked to states 1,200 ppm for butane. For your senses to experience 1,200 ppm of butane the BHO would need to have a butane residual of 15,900 ppm, assuming the 13.25x dilution factor from my presentation.

Also the 1,200 ppm odor threshold referenced is against a neutral background of pure nitrogen, not a vaporized terpene rich dab diluted with ambient air.

"Measurement of Odor Threshold by Triangle Odor Bag Method"

https://cschi.cz/odour/files/world/Measurement of odor threshold by Triangle Odor Bag Method.pdf



Could you respond?

Click to expand...

SkyHighLer said:

The ppm of residual solvent in an oil sample isn't equal to the ppm of residual solvent in the oil sample vaporized and diluted with air.

The residual standards are BS, at the actual concentration level the residuals are non-toxic, and undetectable to the unaided senses.

Click to expand...

Could you elaborate?

SkyHighLer said:

Definition of elaborate

1 : planned or carried out with great care - took elaborate precautions
2 : marked by complexity, fullness of detail, or ornateness elaborate prose


I'm done elaborating.

GW, the table of odor thresholds you linked to states 1,200 ppm for butane. For your senses to experience 1,200 ppm of butane the BHO would need to have a butane residual of 15,900 ppm, assuming the 13.25x dilution factor from my presentation.

Also the 1,200 ppm odor threshold referenced is against a neutral background of pure nitrogen, not a vaporized terpene rich dab diluted with ambient air.

"Measurement of Odor Threshold by Triangle Odor Bag Method"

https://cschi.cz/odour/files/world/Measurement%20of%20odor%20threshold%20by%20Triangle%20Odor%20Bag%20Method.pdf



Could you respond?

Click to expand...

I can now. I was reacting to your comment, "The residual standards are BS, at the actual concentration level the residuals are non-toxic, and undetectable to the unaided senses."

I was curious as to why you said the residual FDA standards are BS, as well as what concentration level you were referring to.

I had already stated there was competition, so I inferred your issue wasn’t competing odors.

“Butane is a subtle odor and taste, so as noted is easily masked by the unsubtle monoterpenes. It's more detectable extracting old material mostly devoid of the competing aromatic odors and flavors.

Here is a link showing sensory thresholds for different solvents when isolated.”

What isn’t clicking is:

SkyHighLer said:

When you get your head around the above, do the math for the other residual solvents, here's an interesting example, benzene. Benzene should be limited to 2 ppm before dilution due to possible oral ingestion toxicity, the second calculation is to show how high a ppm of benzene you could have in your oil and still have only 2 ppm in the diluted vapor.

Click to expand...

In my vernacular, 2ppm is the dilution.

I've offered ample evidence to prove no one ever 'tasted' butane in a vaporized dab.

A residual level of >15,000 ppm in the oil would be necessary to exceed the butane odor threshold level of 1,200 ppm in the vaporized and diluted dab.


115F down to -29.5" Hg until the bubbling slows to a crawl, and I'm done, and with nearly all the terpenes retained. Sorry you guys can't follow the logic, I'm really trying.

SkyHighLer said:

I've offered ample evidence to prove no one ever 'tasted' butane in a vaporized dab.

A residual level of >15,000 ppm in the oil would be necessary to exceed the butane odor threshold level of 1,200 ppm in the vaporized and diluted dab.


115F down to -29.5" Hg until the bubbling slows to a crawl, and I'm done, and with nearly all the terpenes retained. Sorry you guys can't follow the logic, I'm really trying.

Click to expand...

Certainly ample argument, if not evidence.

Not hard to follow the logic brother John, but on the other hand I have tasted butane in a vaporized dab, which also made my nose crawl.

One issue is that odor and taste thresholds aren't the same.

Another is they results aren't the same for the unrefined and adapted palate.

Then there is the crawly nose thing.........

I suggest what is making your "nose crawl" is the terpenes you didn't vacuum off, not the residual butane.


Attached are the range of odor threshold values for butane and propane from:

Odor Thresholds for Chemicals with Established Occupational Health Standards, 2nd edition
Edited by Sharon S. Murnane, Alex H. Lehocky, and Patrick D. Owens
Number of Pages: 182
Date Published: 4/23/2013
ISBN: 978-1-935082-38-5

SkyHighLer said:

I suggest what is making your "nose crawl" is the terpenes you didn't vacuum off, not the residual butane.


Attached are the range of odor threshold values for butane and propane from:

Odor Thresholds for Chemicals with Established Occupational Health Standards, 2nd edition
Edited by Sharon S. Murnane, Alex H. Lehocky, and Patrick D. Owens
Number of Pages: 182
Date Published: 4/23/2013
ISBN: 978-1-935082-38-5

Click to expand...

I don't agree for a couple reasons. The first is that in some cases, terpenes were notably lacking, and the second is that I continue to experiment with the terpene concentrates by themselves without that reaction.

After considering your math, I suggest that your model is flawed, in that the vapor is not evenly mixed with the air before inhaling. It comes in rather concentrated, and the balance of the air is added after it has already passed the mouth.

Gray Wolf said:

Certainly ample argument, if not evidence.

Not hard to follow the logic brother John, but on the other hand I have tasted butane in a vaporized dab, which also made my nose crawl.

One issue is that odor and taste thresholds aren't the same.

Another is they results aren't the same for the unrefined and adapted palate.

Then there is the crawly nose thing.........

Click to expand...

Gray Wolf said:

I don't agree for a couple reasons. The first is that in some cases, terpenes were notably lacking, and the second is that I continue to experiment with the terpene concentrates by themselves without that reaction.

After considering your math, I suggest that your model is flawed, in that the vapor is not evenly mixed with the air before inhaling. It comes in rather concentrated, and the balance of the air is added after it has already passed the mouth.

Click to expand...

I'm reading you think the initial butane concentration being sucked in through your mouth and down your throat during inhalation is also being diverted directly up your nasal passage, bombarding your olfactory bulb with nasty irritating butane, making your "nose crawl." Interesting the cannabinoids and terpenes at the supposed high initial concentration your conjecturing aren't offensive to your nose.

I just squirted some butane in a Mason jar, and with the liquid butane sloshing around and boiling off I stuck my nose in the jar and tried to "make my nose crawl," couldn't do it. Other than the faint petroleum odor and the coolness of the vapor, nothing, zip, nada.

Thinking maybe I wasn't getting a concentrated enough dose to replicate the "nose crawl" experience reported by GW, I repeated the experiment using a piece of tubing, one end deep in the jar of boiling butane, the other in my mouth or up my nose. Inhaling the highly concentrated butane vapor through my mouth never made it to my nose, no effect. Inhaling through my nose with the other nostril closed off it was odorous and somewhat irritating, but at that high of a concentration I almost passed out, and it's impossible to get anywhere near that concentration from a dab.

Does your brain/mind analyze the 'flavor' of the dab during inhale, while your holding it, during exhale, or after exhale?

The 'flavor' isn't revealed to me until I've held it and have begun releasing it, it is only at that time the slowly released wafts of vapor hit my nose.

As an adjunct to the above test, I squirted some butane into a one gallon Zip-Lock bag, removed the air, sealed it, let the butane turn to vapor, and took note of the expansion.

To remove the air I let the bottom edge with the liquid butane hang over the sink, and 'squeegeed' the air out with my arm.

The result was interesting, very little expansion. I tried it with larger amounts of butane, and could then see some expansion, but it would take a quite a lot of liquid butane to fill the bag with vapor.

A residual level of 5,000 ppm is .005 of a gram of butane in a gram of BHO. A tenth of a gram dab would contain .0005 of a gram of butane.

That five ten-thousandth (.0005) of a gram of butane when vaporized would be infinitesimal in volume, nothing compared to the volume of the rest of the vapor from the dab.

Interesting discussion guys. What happens if you do 10x dabs for 356 days straight at .0005 grams per dab? That would be 1.78 grams of butane. Is it bad for you over the very long term?

Is Mercaptan included in that butane ppm?

Most people can't taste anything you don't tell them about. Thats why the market is in the shape its in. Leafly description trumps all lol. "ah yeah that must be skunk!"

WaterFarmFan said:

Interesting discussion guys. What happens if you do 10x dabs for 356 days straight at .0005 grams per dab? That would be 1.78 grams of butane. Is it bad for you over the very long term?

Click to expand...

But it's not all absorbed by the lungs, you exhale it. Same goes for the 356 grams of oil (10 x .1g x 356 days.)

SkyHighLer said:

As an adjunct to the above test, I squirted some butane into a one gallon Zip-Lock bag, removed the air, sealed it, let the butane turn to vapor, and took note of the expansion.

To remove the air I let the bottom edge with the liquid butane hang over the sink, and 'squeegeed' the air out with my arm.

The result was interesting, very little expansion. I tried it with larger amounts of butane, and could then see some expansion, but it would take a quite a lot of liquid butane to fill the bag with vapor.

A residual level of 5,000 ppm is .005 of a gram of butane in a gram of BHO. A tenth of a gram dab would contain .0005 of a gram of butane.

That five ten-thousandth (.0005) of a gram of butane when vaporized would be infinitesimal in volume, nothing compared to the volume of the rest of the vapor from the dab.

Click to expand...

Sniffing butane doesn't make my nose crawl either brother John, but vaporizing it at high enough levels in a concentrate sure does. Try a dab from some concentrate right out of the Pyrex dish before purging and see if you don't get a nose hit.

As for when I taste or smell, inhaling or exhaling, I do at any point in the process. Back to that in a moment.

Before answering your question, I sat down and took some dabs. Didn't have any butane laden samples to try, so I just checked out taste using some quality Box Extracts Hash Berry.

To further bugger your math, I also don't fill my lungs anywhere close to their limit in normal breathing, and even less dabbing, so as to not have a deep lung tickle coughing fit.

As for the taste, start a pull of the dense vapors from the pipe, and stop at any point, hold your breath and smack your lips. Do you not get a burst of flavor when the air hits your taste buds?

As the saying goes, there are lies, damn lies, and statistics, which I'm not knocking, because I used them to my professional advantage convincing common folks, technocrats, and bean counters to sign capital equipment requests back in the day.

As an old wolf in the hen house however, I saying that I don't agree with your initial assumptions of volumes and sensory points, so didn't check your math.

In truth, I was also was taken back by your calling the standards BS, rather than possibly not appropriate in this case.

Most especially given all the doctorates involved and keen equipment they have to come up with their numbers, vis a vis us'n poor shy and reserved humble folks with a less splendid array of keen thangs to generate statistics with.

We are in agreement that as GRAS, we are not discussing issues of toxicity under 5000 PPM, and that b-Butane/Propane flavor are more subtle than the monoterpenes masking them, if they are in fact present to do the masking.

^ "Sniffing butane doesn't make my nose crawl either brother John, but vaporizing it at high enough levels in a concentrate sure does."

The statement begs an explanation, and I offered a logical one, you're mistaking an abundance of low boiling point terpenes for butane.


May I suggest "Everything You Know Is Wrong?"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dAcHfymgh4Y

SkyHighLer said:

^ "Sniffing butane doesn't make my nose crawl either brother John, but vaporizing it at high enough levels in a concentrate sure does."

The statement begs an explanation, and I offered a logical one, you're mistaking an abundance of low boiling point terpenes for butane.


May I suggest "Everything You Know Is Wrong?"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dAcHfymgh4Y

Click to expand...

It must be comforting to be so certain. Have you ever gotten seltzer or coke up your nose from the carbonation?

You can suggest the premise, or the utube, but I couldn't get very far into the video and if it is the premise, I don't accept you as the authority on the subject of what is right and wrong.

Sorry, my personal experience trumps your logical wild ass guesses, searching for an alternate theory.

So far your argument has involved starting from unsound initial ASSumptions about volumes and expanding on them mathematically to prove your point.

I find it deceptive you didn't mention everyone starts inhaling on their dab rigs before dabbing down on the e-nail. There is dilution, something to study.


I received a full tuition four year Merit Scholarship in Pharmacy at USC, should be good enough to have a say.

The National Merit Scholarship Program is a United States academic scholarship competition for recognition and university scholarships administered by the National Merit Scholarship Corporation (NMSC), a privately funded, not-for-profit organization based in Evanston, Illinois. The program began in 1955.

NMSC conducts two annual competitions for recognition and scholarships: the National Merit Scholarship Program, which is open to all students who meet entry requirements, and (until 2015) the National Achievement Scholarship Program (est. 1964) reserved for African-American students. The highest-achieving students in the National Merit Scholarship Program are designated as National Merit Scholars. Finalists and semi-finalists are also given recognition for their academic and extracurricular achievements. Commended Students are named on the basis of a nationally applied Selection Index score, which may vary from year to year and is typically below the level required for participants to be named Semi-finalists in their respective states. Each year's Preliminary SAT/National Merit Scholarship Qualifying Test (PSAT/NMSQT®) is the qualifying test for a student's entry to a particular year's competitions.

About 1.6 million students in some 22,000 high schools enter the National Merit Scholarship competition annually when they take the Preliminary SAT/National Merit Scholarship Qualifying Test (PSAT/NMSQT®). This serves to screen program entrants, measuring critical reading ability, mathematics problem-solving ability, and writing ability, rather than existing knowledge. Semifinalists are designated on a state representational basis, contingent on the total number of entrants and in proportion to each state’s percentage of the nation’s high school graduating seniors. Semifinalists are the highest-scoring program entrants in each state and represent the top 0.5% percent of the state’s senior students.

To be considered for a National Merit Scholarship, Semifinalists have to fulfill requirements to advance to Finalist standing. Each Semifinalist submits a detailed scholarship application, which includes essays and information about extracurricular achievements, awards, and leadership positions. Semifinalists also have to have an outstanding academic record, be endorsed and recommended by a school official, and earn SAT scores that confirm their qualifying test performance. From the Semifinalist group, a certain number of students, varying from year to year, advance to Finalist standing depending on the above criteria. By the conclusion of the competition, a select group of Finalists are chosen to receive prestigious National Merit Scholarships totaling nearly $35 million. Winners are the Finalist candidates judged to have the strongest combination of academic skills and achievements, extracurricular accomplishments, and potential for success in rigorous university studies. Scholarship winners represent fewer than 1% of the initial pool of student entrants, based on official statistics released by the National Merit Scholarship Corporation.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Merit_Scholarship_Program

Hospice said over and over I was the best male caregiver they'd come across, the exception was a guy taking care of his father. It's been five years since my mom, Dorothy Mary Schuyler passed under my care, best reality checking experience of my life.

I've been planning on sharing pictures of how I cured a supposed incurable bedsore on my mother's back with Manuka honey. Talk about something that needs more study, bedsores are a leading source of death in nursing homes. My mother was in a nursing home for a month, I was there 24/7 with her, what goes on in those places is gut wrenching. She spent the last six months of her life in bed with a full length cast on her leg, the surgeon said she wouldn't survive surgery, so I did one on one hospice with her in our home, family was beyond useless, an actual imposition. I'm still recovering from the sleeping on the floor at her bedside, and the just plain trauma of having no one to lean on. Sorry to go on and on, now you know a bit about me.

Mom's natal chart, quite a lady, and loving mother, daughter of 'Jack' E Hilleson, where I got my name John Edward Schuyler,

https://alabe.com/cgi-bin/chart/ast...s+&COUNTRY=USA&STATE=MO&INPUT9=&Submit=Submit

SkyHighLer said:

I find it deceptive you didn't mention everyone starts inhaling on their dab rigs before dabbing down on the e-nail. There is dilution, something to study.


I received a full tuition four year Merit Scholarship in Pharmacy at USC, should be good enough to have a say.

The National Merit Scholarship Program is a United States academic scholarship competition for recognition and university scholarships administered by the National Merit Scholarship Corporation (NMSC), a privately funded, not-for-profit organization based in Evanston, Illinois. The program began in 1955.

NMSC conducts two annual competitions for recognition and scholarships: the National Merit Scholarship Program, which is open to all students who meet entry requirements, and (until 2015) the National Achievement Scholarship Program (est. 1964) reserved for African-American students. The highest-achieving students in the National Merit Scholarship Program are designated as National Merit Scholars. Finalists and semi-finalists are also given recognition for their academic and extracurricular achievements. Commended Students are named on the basis of a nationally applied Selection Index score, which may vary from year to year and is typically below the level required for participants to be named Semi-finalists in their respective states. Each year's Preliminary SAT/National Merit Scholarship Qualifying Test (PSAT/NMSQT®) is the qualifying test for a student's entry to a particular year's competitions.

About 1.6 million students in some 22,000 high schools enter the National Merit Scholarship competition annually when they take the Preliminary SAT/National Merit Scholarship Qualifying Test (PSAT/NMSQT®). This serves to screen program entrants, measuring critical reading ability, mathematics problem-solving ability, and writing ability, rather than existing knowledge. Semifinalists are designated on a state representational basis, contingent on the total number of entrants and in proportion to each state’s percentage of the nation’s high school graduating seniors. Semifinalists are the highest-scoring program entrants in each state and represent the top 0.5% percent of the state’s senior students.

To be considered for a National Merit Scholarship, Semifinalists have to fulfill requirements to advance to Finalist standing. Each Semifinalist submits a detailed scholarship application, which includes essays and information about extracurricular achievements, awards, and leadership positions. Semifinalists also have to have an outstanding academic record, be endorsed and recommended by a school official, and earn SAT scores that confirm their qualifying test performance. From the Semifinalist group, a certain number of students, varying from year to year, advance to Finalist standing depending on the above criteria. By the conclusion of the competition, a select group of Finalists are chosen to receive prestigious National Merit Scholarships totaling nearly $35 million. Winners are the Finalist candidates judged to have the strongest combination of academic skills and achievements, extracurricular accomplishments, and potential for success in rigorous university studies. Scholarship winners represent fewer than 1% of the initial pool of student entrants, based on official statistics released by the National Merit Scholarship Corporation.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Merit_Scholarship_Program

Hospice said over and over I was the best male caregiver they'd come across, the exception was a guy taking care of his father. It's been five years since my mom, Dorothy Mary Schuyler passed under my care, best reality checking experience of my life.

I've been planning on sharing pictures of how I cured a supposed incurable bedsore on my mother's back with Manuka honey. Talk about something that needs more study, bedsores are a leading source of death in nursing homes. My mother was in a nursing home for a month, I was there 24/7 with her, what goes on in those places is gut wrenching. She spent the last six months of her life in bed with a full length cast on her leg, the surgeon said she wouldn't survive surgery, so I did one on one hospice with her in our home, family was beyond useless, an actual imposition. I'm still recovering from the sleeping on the floor at her bedside, and the just plain trauma of having no one to lean on. Sorry to go on and on, now you know a bit about me.

Click to expand...

So now I'm deceptive and the proof of our debate is your NMSP credentials?

A man has his word. Before me the word of my father Harold Stanley Schuyler, and his father Earle Stanley Schuyler, back to the founders of this country, brother.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philip_Schuyler


Earle married a gal from Oklahoma, Jeanette Adamson. Roger that G.O. Joe. That's my jeans/genes back to Adam....


I ought to post my mother and father's birth certificates, the coincidences of the names and places is... well, the tune.


Picture of Jeanette's wedding band. Earle knew his gold, he was a "mining man" from Denver according to my father's birth certificate. Also a picture from the late '50's of Earle and myself in the driveway of my family's home on 108th Street in LA, just west of Denker and George Washington High School.

SkyHighLer said:

A man has his word. Before me the word of my father Harold Stanley Schuyler, and his father Earle Stanley Schuyler, back to the founders of this country, brother.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philip_Schuyler


Earle married a gal from Oklahoma, Jeanette Adamson. Roger that G.O. Joe. That's my jeans/genes back to Adam....


I ought to post my mother and father's birth certificates, the coincidences of the names and places is... well, the tune.


Picture of Jeanette's wedding band. Earle knew his gold, he was a "mining man" from Denver according to my father's birth certificate. Also a picture from the late '50's of Earle and myself in the driveway of my family's home on 108th Street in LA, just west of Denker and George Washington High School.

Click to expand...

Who could possibly argue with that logic??

Logic is for those that can't handle drugs.

John's legendary dad, Harold Stanley Schuyler,

Harold of the Rocks, Primus

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HOIa_EfOx0A


lyrics:

It was a weekend's eve,
I had sex on my breath
I was lookin' for somethin' to see.
With a borrowed black
leather and my best fishin' hat.
Well it was just Wendy O. and me.
We called old Swamp
Up on the telephone
And said we was comin' on
Down to pick him up
and then, he said,
"Hey Snappy, me and Greeny'll come along -
But only if we can bring a friend."
"His name is Harold."
I said "Okay."
Now, we had a
Swamper, Greeny, Wendy O, Stanley, Harold of the Rocks and me.
We hopped into my dart
And headed for the nightbreak
To see a man they call Schooly D.
Harold he's a friendly guy.
He rambles on and on.
He'll talk the balls off
a rhinosaurus.
fact is he jsut doesn't
make much sense.
Well Stan said
"This guy's pretty bizarre Gus."
Harold of the Rocks.

I saw Harold at a
party Trouzy threw
Late one night.
I said, "hey man,
Do you remember me?"
He said, "O' course
I do Snapdad and
Let me tell ya right
'Bout now I'm lit
Up like an ol' Christmas tree."
Hey bro you know I'd
like to thank you once
Again for let'n me
Hang with ya' all across
The bay. when I
Look back at that
night I get me a
Warm spot across my heart."
Then he shook my
hand, and walked away.
That's teh last I
Seen of Harold.
Harold of the Rocks.
So in the end,
Swamper and Greeny
Finally succumb to
The ways of Harold.
And in doing so
Each gave just a little bit
Of his soul away.
What a couple of dumbshits.


Pictures of 'my book' and of Harold Stanley Schuyler with my sister Cheryle Marie's son Danny Ray Clark showing off a slew of trout.

Ohmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1

Back to the present..............