Silicone Bronze Nuts

HWY36 · Oct 16, 2017

So I've rethought a lot of things ever since my PRV valve incident with my 100# tank from Open Source Steel (negative plug intentional). I was reading threads about nuts and clamps etc. Are a lot of you guys using silicone bronze nuts? Where can I find them online? I've searched everywhere locally to no avail.

Also, where do you buy quality high pressure clamps? Thx all.

Gry · Oct 16, 2017

had me running for google: "Silicon bronze is a low-lead brass alloy that is generally composed of 96 percent copper. The remainder can be made from silicon and a variety of other alloys such as manganese, tin, iron, or zinc. Silicon Bronze is known for its easy pouring ability, appealing surface finish and superior corrosion resistant properties, even when submerged in liquids and chemicals. Silicon Bronze was originally developed for the chemical industry but later expanded due to its good casting characteristics."

Pangea · Oct 16, 2017

I think that www.austenitex.com stocks some quality products, including replacement nuts, hp clamps, as well as some not so common gaskets.

Ive also looked into silicone bronze nuts, but I havent gone that route yet. I just do regular replacements on the brass and dont over torque them. It'd be nice if the silicon bronze sheds less than the standard brass, not certain what the exact benefits are, the mentioned site says to use brass on the 12"clamps for some reason??

Old Gold · Oct 16, 2017

I used to use them, and could get them on Amazon. I think last time i checked, the seller was out of stock indefinitely. They definitely don't strip like brass haha. I have never used a brass nut without seeing it strip.

I've heard silicon bronze doesn't need to be lubricated and it won't gall against 300 series stainless steels.

From a mechanics standpoint, the nuts are really the fasteners, so they should be the strongest material (304 stainless steel), and the bolts should be a different alloy of stainless steel to help prevent galling (316 would make sense here). Silicon bronze is a step in the right direction though, as it is waaaayyyy stronger than brass.

Gray Wolf · Oct 17, 2017

HWY36 said:
So I've rethought a lot of things ever since my PRV valve incident with my 100# tank from Open Source Steel (negative plug intentional). I was reading threads about nuts and clamps etc. Are a lot of you guys using silicone bronze nuts? Where can I find them online? I've searched everywhere locally to no avail.

Also, where do you buy quality high pressure clamps? Thx all.

We get our high SSH high pressure clamps from LJ Star.

HWY36 · Oct 17, 2017

Gray Wolf said:
We get our high SSH high pressure clamps from LJ Star.

Do you use silicone bronze nuts?

SkyHighLer · Oct 17, 2017

GW,

"Si Bronze is a very good choice for the application, which is strong, self lubricating, and doesn't gall with stainless.

You could use a Carbon steel bolt and a thread lubricant. If you use the thread lubricant, your torque values won't work."

https://www.icmag.com/ic/showpost.php?p=6928802&postcount=244

That was the general conclusion from past discussions.

divine moments · Oct 18, 2017

Why not just correctly torqued stainless nuts?

Gray Wolf · Oct 18, 2017

HWY36 said:
Do you use silicone bronze nuts?

Yes I do. And we torque them to specification.

Si Bronze actually has a higher tensile strength than the stainless, though not as much elongation. It is also self lubricating, so no Antiseize is required.

If you over torque them repeatedly, you will however shear the threads.

Stainless to stainless of course galls badly without Antiseize, and with it torque values are worthless.

http://elginfasteners.com/resources/materials/material-specifications/silicon-bronze-655/

BigJohnny · Oct 18, 2017

divine moments said:
Why not just correctly torqued stainless nuts?

have you tried this without using any kind of lubrication?

You only screw the nut on the bolt once.....and then cut the bolt to remove it.
Without any kind of lube SS on SS binds right the fuck up.

HWY36 · Oct 18, 2017

Gray Wolf said:
Yes I do. And we torque them to specification.

Si Bronze actually has a higher tensile strength than the stainless, though not as much elongation. It is also self lubricating, so no Antiseize is required.

If you over torque them repeatedly, you will however shear the threads.

Stainless to stainless of course galls badly without Antiseize, and with it torque values are worthless.

https://elginfasteners.com/resources/materials/material-specifications/silicon-bronze-655/

Thank you. Sorry to belabor the point, but Old Gold said he was "taking out nuts like nobody's business" when torqueing brass to spec.
Is the "not as much elongation" an issue in any way? Is there any reason (other than cost) not to use Si Bronze over brass?

SkyHighLer · Oct 18, 2017

All of this has been covered thoroughly in excruciating detail. :biggrin:

https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=315058&highlight=bronze+nuts

From post #11,

Ricky's bong, "There's nothing wrong with using high grade plated steel nuts for this application. The reason brass is sold with these is for washdown applications where steel is not acceptable.
Stainless nuts can gall and seize of course on SS bolts.

For that matter, buy high grade steel bolts as well, this will offer the most reliable bolted connection when it is being dis-assembled regularly. Make sure they are lubed."

From post #27,

GW, "It isn't the carbon content causing the galling, but you can switch to a 400 series stainless bolt, or a regular steel bolt. If I were to use a steel bolt, I would use a Grade 8, which is high carbon and heat treated."

Gray Wolf · Oct 19, 2017

SkyHighLer said:
All of this has been covered thoroughly in excruciating detail.

https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=315058&highlight=bronze+nuts

From post #11,

Ricky's bong, "There's nothing wrong with using high grade plated steel nuts for this application. The reason brass is sold with these is for washdown applications where steel is not acceptable.
Stainless nuts can gall and seize of course on SS bolts.

For that matter, buy high grade steel bolts as well, this will offer the most reliable bolted connection when it is being dis-assembled regularly. Make sure they are lubed."

From post #27,

GW, "It isn't the carbon content causing the galling, but you can switch to a 400 series stainless bolt, or a regular steel bolt. If I were to use a steel bolt, I would use a Grade 8, which is high carbon and heat treated."

300 Series austenitic stainless steel is high Chromium, 16% to around 30% and about 2 to 20% Nickle, which is what smears and galls.

400 Series has both Ferritic and Martensitic stainless steel.

The Ferritic has about 10 to 20% Chrome added for strength and corrosion resistance, but are low carbon and can't be hardened and tempered by heat treat. They are typically the ones used for things like fasteners.

The Martensitic 400 series like 410H, 420, and 420HC has about 11 to 18% Chromium and are high carbon, which can be hardened and tempered. They are highly corrosion resistant and hard enough to make knife blades out of.

Grade 8 Carbon Steel fasteners are hardened and tempered, just not corrosion resistant.

Gray Wolf · Oct 19, 2017

HWY36 said:
Thank you. Sorry to belabor the point, but Old Gold said he was "taking out nuts like nobody's business" when torqueing brass to spec.
Is the "not as much elongation" an issue in any way? Is there any reason (other than cost) not to use Si Bronze over brass?

I prefer Si Bronze because it is self lubricating, and is high strength.

We found the manufacturers torquing specification to be too optimistic as well, and developed our own. Looks like I used manufacturers recommended 20 ft/lbs for the high pressure clamps and as I recall we ended up closer to 15ft/lb.

Elongation is a measurement of how far an alloy will stretch after it reaches yield, before reaching ultimate tensile. 304 SS has an elongation of around 70% and Si Bronze about 13%. 410SS is about 25%.

HWY36 · Oct 20, 2017

SkyHighLer said:
All of this has been covered thoroughly in excruciating detail.

https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=315058&highlight=bronze+nuts

From post #11,

Ricky's bong, "There's nothing wrong with using high grade plated steel nuts for this application. The reason brass is sold with these is for washdown applications where steel is not acceptable.
Stainless nuts can gall and seize of course on SS bolts.

For that matter, buy high grade steel bolts as well, this will offer the most reliable bolted connection when it is being dis-assembled regularly. Make sure they are lubed."

From post #27,

GW, "It isn't the carbon content causing the galling, but you can switch to a 400 series stainless bolt, or a regular steel bolt. If I were to use a steel bolt, I would use a Grade 8, which is high carbon and heat treated."

I have previously read that thread thoroughly, several times, thank you. There doesn't appear to be any consensus on Si Bronze. Furthermore, torque specs seem to be somewhat inaccurate and lubricating SS apparently negates torque specs. Given that the results of over torqueing nuts, which may be simply torqueing them to spec, could result in DEATH, I figured the topic worthy of some clarification. Sorry if you feel otherwise. :tiphat:

HWY36 · Oct 20, 2017

Gray Wolf said:
I prefer Si Bronze because it is self lubricating, and is high strength.

We found the manufacturers torquing specification to be too optimistic as well, and developed our own. Looks like I used manufacturers recommended 20 ft/lbs for the high pressure clamps and as I recall we ended up closer to 15ft/lb.

Elongation is a measurement of how far an alloy will stretch after it reaches yield, before reaching ultimate tensile. 304 SS has an elongation of around 70% and Si Bronze about 13%. 410SS is about 25%.

Regards

Gray Wolf · Oct 20, 2017

For what its worth, the 12" ASME clamp on our WolfWurx ASME recovery pot, uses three Grade 8 socket head steel bolts and nuts. We torque them dry and they have to be replaced regularly due to wear and stretch.

HWY36 · Oct 21, 2017

Gray Wolf said:
For what its worth, the 12" ASME clamp on our WolfWurx ASME recovery pot, uses three Grade 8 socket head steel bolts and nuts. We torque them dry and they have to be replaced regularly due to wear and stretch.

We've replaced them frequently with ss bolts and brass nuts. From all I've read, I think we're moving to bronze nuts. Thx for the heads up.

WhiteTyrus · Nov 7, 2017

I purchased some Si bronze nuts for my system however it seems that the nuts aren't as high as the nuts that came with my system, I'm curious to whether the height difference in the original brass nut vs. The Si Bronze nuts I purchased from McMaster, will matter in my system?

The two bolts have the same amount of threads inside the brass ones just taller.

SkyHighLer · Nov 7, 2017

Thanks for the nice pictures!!

I checked eBay, and it's brass ubiquitously. Here's just one, it's direct from China, but shows the same nuts everyone else shows, and here they're identified.

"Item description

The high pressure clamps are used to connect two tri clamp/tri clover style connections. It is secured with two SS316 bolts, lock washers and brass hex nuts. The bolts, lock nuts and brass hex nuts can be replaced easily as needed."

https://www.ebay.com/itm/2-5-Bolted...641996?hash=item4666df9f0c:g:fVYAAOSw~e5ZXFDN

BVV carries four lines of tri clamps, and the nut material is not identified in any of the ads. They also sell separately what appears to be stainless steel nuts.

https://www.bestvaluevacs.com/categ...amp-extractor-parts/high-pressure-clamps.html

Brass nuts from Xtractor Depot,

"DESCRIPTION
High quality brass nuts sold individually
Used with Heavy Duty High Pressure clamps"

https://xtractordepot.com/collections/xtractor-parts/products/brass-nut-only

Terpp Extractors,

"Brass Nut

For use with high pressure clamps.

Brass is highly corrosion resistant, however, it is a relatively soft metal and wears down over time. Be sure to replace your brass nuts when they show signs of wear.

Brass nuts for high pressure clamp."

https://terppextractors.com/collections/accessories/products/brass-nut

An eBay link to 3/8"-16 silicon bronze nuts,

https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_od...S0&_nkw=silicon+bronze++nuts+3/8"-16&_sacat=0

Silicone Bronze Nuts

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