Is there a standard LOS seedling mix?

Bush Doctah · May 1, 2019

Curious to know if there is a "standard" seedling mix similar to Coot's mix? I can't find anything in my notes, and I have seen examples that range from very simple (limed peat, compost/EWC, aeration) to a full on Coot's mix.
I presume that the container is important (solo cups vs. germ trays). I'll be using solo cups for the first few weeks then TPing up twice. This is because I can't take a seedling to the sexing stage in a solo cup, nor can I TP all the seedlings into 30 gal. containers before sexing unless I put multiple plants in a container and then cull (when to inoculate with mychorrizae then? another TP within a 30 gal. container seems crazy, no?). Is this correct? Also,should I go straight to a regular strength mix with the first TP? (One note: this grow will be outdoors, if that matters).
Thank you all so much for all your help with these newbie questions!
BD

thailer · May 1, 2019

I've tried quite a few different types of seedling mixes and i am currently loving one i found.

Using a 2cup measuring cup as a 'part':

9 parts (18 cups) Peat Moss
1 part (2 cups) ewc
2 parts (4 cups) Perlite
light 1/4 cup kelp meal
1/3 cup CaCO3 lime or 1/4 cup dolomite

mixed everything in a 5gal bucket, then added water to totally saturate. Ended up with about 2 1/2 gallons of mix.

I've tried regular coot mix in the past and it works too but i like the higher peat content of this because it stays moist longer. I prefer solo cups filled half way to germinate the seed and then i back fill the solo cup with regular soil when it has at least two sets of nodes with full leaves up to the coty leaves. then after i get more growth i TP into 2.5 gallons and they should be ready to sex by the time they need to be TP again. sometimes i go up to a five gallon to sex depending on vigor. you can cull the ones you don't want then and TP into their 30 gallon easily. they will take off in growth after a week. my experience is indoors tho. i've read some people do more up potting to keep them smaller for outdoor before they go into the final pot.

but that seedling mix worked great for me this last round and i am switching from using normal soil now. if you have a liquid myco, then moisten the soil first before planting with it. if its a clay just add some to the soil mix when you mix it up. a seedling heat mat with a thermostat is going to be your best friend.

Bush Doctah · May 3, 2019

Hi thailer and thanks very much for the seedling mix recipe! You can read minds, or we are on the same wavelength for sure. I was thinking about adding some leaf mold to help with water retention, but some extra peat does the same thing and is easier. And on my list of questions at the very top is: when can I add kelp?
Yesterday I mixed everything up except for the EWC, which I will add today. Does it need to cook/cycle before planting? I am thinking no based on my prior use of kelp, but just wanted to make sure. Hoping to plant tomorrow, so hoping not.
Thanks also for your feedback on TPing. That solves that and clears my fears. My mychos will be in powder form so I'll have to dust them on. Do you cut away/trim roots before the final TP? I was told to do this by an old school gardener (non canna).
Re: heating pad use. I was told by the seed vendor, who has a good reputation, not to use a heating pad. He knows that the seeds will be grown outdoors - they are all specifically outdoor strains bred for this climate - the great white north that is still feeling entirely white! I will pose this question to the outdoor peeps.
Thanks again so much for sharing your recipe with me and taking the time to answer my questions! I'll let you know how it works (fantastically I'm sure).
BD

thailer · May 3, 2019

when can I add kelp? when you mix the soil. mix it all up at once for less work.

Does it need to cook/cycle before planting? not this one although i would mix it up today and get the soil moist and then TP tomorrow. if you mix it up and the soil is not fully saturated, its hard to get it saturated when the plants are in it without over watering.

Do you cut away/trim roots before the final TP? not really. i think some people do that but its mostly because plants that are in containers grow enough roots to hold the shape of the container. so when you transplant, you need to break it up a little with your fingers. if you don't, the root ball keeps its shape and the new soil around it doesn't make contact with it as easily and water isn't distributed evenly. you'll be able to see the rootball sometimes at the top of the soil after watering because the fresh soil moves away from the root ball. i guess its easier to see with your own eyes than describe it.

a seed mat makes them warm enough to pop so you get a higher germination rate. i haven't herd that before but i also don't frequent a lot of outdoor threads. Good Luck!!

Microbeman · May 3, 2019

For seeding I use very similar to thailer but with 60/40 peatmoss to good quality vermicompost and a bit of rocky sand for drainage. I did not use kelp but that is a good idea.

I made the mistake of using mineral 'dust' once and burnt the seedlings badly. I had a small room dedicated to this with shelving and T5s. I could section off individual shelves with the black/white plastic.

Using this, I could grow the seedlings in small pots (I use small squares) enough to take small cuttings (2 or 3) from each plant, number them and place the seedlings under 12 hour light for sexing. The small plants showed their sex quite quickly and I could then relate this to the numbered cuttings. The desired plants were planted into living soil in a bed in both greenhouses and outdoors.

Once they grew up a little, additional cuttings could be taken to create mothers.

Mycorrhizal spores were dusted on seeds, cuttings and transplant roots.

I never trim roots. I cannot see the logic to this. Most of our ultimate transplants were peat pellets so they were just plopped into the hole. Some roots trailing from these were 12 inches from sitting in the rooting tray and being 'fed' on ACT.

Bush Doctah · May 5, 2019

Hey thailer. Thanks for the follow up advice.
I hydrated the peat on Thursday, mixed it up on Friday and let it sit until this morning when I got my first seeds to sprout! Can't believe they did... 5 (at least) years old, subjected to high heat and humidity for 2 weeks 4 years ago, stored in the fridge since then. I tried and mostly mangled Chimera's seed prep method by inadvertently putting them in a solution with WAY more than 5% bleach after scuffing them... I was so pissed with myself I could hardly sleep last night. I wrote them off when I checked them at 4:00 am.
Then I followed your advice and went and bought 2 seed mats. I had the seeds in a distilled water and coconut water solution under my T5 and they were warm at the top of the glass, but it was cold at the bottom (by touch). Being a social scientist by training, I had to see for myself, not that I had dismissed your advice... thanks for sticking with it.
When I got back I checked them again and to my TOTAL surprise I saw wee little roots poking out of 3 of the seeds! I immediately planted them, tail side down as best I could, spritzed them with some distilled water and put them on the heat mat. I just checked them and I can see condensation forming at the bottom of the solos cups, so they are warm and cozy, just like you said they would!
I am certain they're going to love your mix! Thanks again for your recipe and for taking the time to share your knowledge with me and all the rest of us LOS lovers!
BD

Bush Doctah · May 5, 2019

Greetings Microbeman! I have to say that it is an honour to have you reply to my post. Not trying to suck up, just paying my respect to someone who so richly deserves it. I have read many of your 4,900+ posts and always find them filled with great information and none of the other stuff that sometimes people fall prey to here. Total respect!
Thanks for your seedling mix recipe. I will definitely use vermicompost when I develop my skills enough to produce some. Still working on my composting skills but VC is next on my list. I will try your rocky sand method next time. How rocky is the sand? I used lava rock that, in retrospect, was a bit large. I tried for 1/4" but some of the chunks are a bit bigger than that and kind of got in the way when I was planting.
I am REALLY tempted to try your seedling cloning technique. The seeds I tortured might not be available in the future - is there something going on with with some breeders up here seemingly disappearing? Anyway, I've yet to begin learning cloning, so it might have to wait, but I will definitely keep it in mind.
Your method of inoculating with mychorrizae is yet another gem. Obviously I had never thought of doing that, but it makes total sense. That ensures that a plant cannot help but be innoculated. Brilliant! Do you use the liquid or dry form? Do you recommend doing this for every TP if there are more than one?
Re: root trimming. Having thought about this, the guy who recommended it buys all his plants, he almost never germinates his own. I think he must get a lot of them root bound, so maybe that's why he recommended this. I won't be following his advice regardless.
Again, thanks so much for your reply and the golden nuggets of knowledge you always expand our minds with! Off to hydrate some peat before mixing my first canna LOS batch.
BD

Microbeman · May 5, 2019

Sand; Previously just creek bed sand with a mix of sand and tiny pebbles; 1/8 - 1/16 inch
Now I used 'cement' grade sand in a pre-screened form ready for mixing rough tough concrete - eh hh?

I use powder form mycorrhizal spores. If you have enough use at every stage.

h.h. · May 6, 2019

You're probably using masonry sand. Used for mortar and plaster. Angular quartz.

Concrete sand won't be so closely graded. A mixture of particle size and aggregate material.
But don't let me interrupt... :tiphat:

Microbeman · May 6, 2019

h.h. said:
You're probably using masonry sand. Used for mortar and plaster. Angular quartz.

Concrete sand won't be so closely graded. A mixture of particle size and aggregate material.
But don't let me interrupt...

nope - concrete sand with biggish pebbles/gravel I think its all delivered the same here and then screened for purpose. We built some ramps and then screened for mortar.

dank.frank · May 6, 2019

This is what I use for clones and seeds. I have around 50 clones in a standard tray, just inserted into this mix about two days ago. Once rooted, I'll just cut them out in cubes, (as the whole tray can become a root mat if you leave them in it) and transplant. Mix makes 1.5 cut ft.

5 gal peat
2.75 gal coir
.75 gal EWC
.75 gal composted cow manure
.5 gal chunky perlite
.5 gal vermiculite

1c alfalfa meal
1c crab meal
1c kelp meal
2/3c pH mineral mix* ---> 2/3c dolomite, 1/3c gypsum, 1/3c aragonite, 1/2c azomite
1/4c DE/Calcium Bentonite
2 tbsp Bio-Vam
2 tbsp Bio-Ag Endo Vam
2 tbsp BTi granules

Also use this exact same mix to grow microgreens. shhhhhhhhh. :joint:

dank.Frank

h.h. · May 6, 2019

Microbeman said:
nope - concrete sand with biggish pebbles/gravel I think its all delivered the same here and then screened for purpose. We built some ramps and then screened for mortar.

Much better. Fatter mix.
Should work the same for soil. Sort of.
All things being the same.

I thought you were getting it from the hardware store.

Microbeman · May 6, 2019

h.h. said:
Much better. Fatter mix.
Should work the same for soil. Sort of.
All things being the same.

I thought you were getting it from the hardware store.

Pumice from the hardware store and cement.

CannaRed · May 6, 2019

Microbeman said:
For seeding I use very similar to thailer but with 60/40 peatmoss to good quality vermicompost and a bit of rocky sand for drainage. I did not use kelp but that is a good idea.

I made the mistake of using mineral 'dust' once and burnt the seedlings badly. I had a small room dedicated to this with shelving and T5s. I could section off individual shelves with the black/white plastic.

Using this, I could grow the seedlings in small pots (I use small squares) enough to take small cuttings (2 or 3) from each plant, number them and place the seedlings under 12 hour light for sexing. The small plants showed their sex quite quickly and I could then relate this to the numbered cuttings. The desired plants were planted into living soil in a bed in both greenhouses and outdoors.

Once they grew up a little, additional cuttings could be taken to create mothers.

Mycorrhizal spores were dusted on seeds, cuttings and transplant roots.

I never trim roots. I cannot see the logic to this. Most of our ultimate transplants were peat pellets so they were just plopped into the hole. Some roots trailing from these were 12 inches from sitting in the rooting tray and being 'fed' on ACT.

So you start feeding your microbe teas at seedling stage? Was wondering about this last night.
Just popped 10 purple Satellite, 6 bangi Haze, and 4 nl5 x Haze.
Wondering how early to start with microbes.

h.h. · May 6, 2019

Microbeman said:
Pumice from the hardware store and cement.

One hell of a starter mix.
Maybe BAS might pick up on it and start selling Cemex. :biggrin:

h.h. · May 6, 2019

My new sunflower mix.

dank.frank said:
This is what I use for clones and seeds. I have around 50 clones in a standard tray, just inserted into this mix about two days ago. Once rooted, I'll just cut them out in cubes, (as the whole tray can become a root mat if you leave them in it) and transplant. Mix makes 1.5 cut ft.

5 gal peat
2.75 gal coir
.75 gal EWC
.75 gal composted cow manure
.5 gal chunky perlite
.5 gal vermiculite

1c alfalfa meal
1c crab meal
1c kelp meal
2/3c pH mineral mix* ---> 2/3c dolomite, 1/3c gypsum, 1/3c aragonite, 1/2c azomite
1/4c DE/Calcium Bentonite
2 tbsp Bio-Vam
2 tbsp Bio-Ag Endo Vam
2 tbsp BTi granules

Also use this exact same mix to grow microgreens. shhhhhhhhh.

View Image

dank.Frank

Microbeman · May 6, 2019

CannaRed said:
So you start feeding your microbe teas at seedling stage? Was wondering about this last night.
Just popped 10 purple Satellite, 6 bangi Haze, and 4 nl5 x Haze.
Wondering how early to start with microbes.

Cuttings actually. We began this practice to accommodate our massive spring undertaking to produce around 5000 cuttings to plant 3500 good ones outside. Also for a long wait until harvest of indoor setups.

Because we did not have sufficient mothers and time to do all cuttings at once, many had to wait for a couple or three weeks in trays in peat pellets under T8s or T5s. We came up with putting about 1/4 inch of ACT in the trays. The trays were checked and the liquid was 'slopped' back and forth each day to mix and aerate a bit. It was like mini hydroponics.

I wish I had taken photos but in those days it was important to stay under the radar.

CannaRed · May 6, 2019

Microbeman said:
Cuttings actually. We began this practice to accommodate our massive spring undertaking to produce around 5000 cuttings to plant 3500 good ones outside. Also for a long wait until harvest of indoor setups.

Because we did not have sufficient mothers and time to do all cuttings at once, many had to wait for a couple or three weeks in trays in peat pellets under T8s or T5s. We came up with putting about 1/4 inch of ACT in the trays. The trays were checked and the liquid was 'slopped' back and forth each day to mix and aerate a bit. It was like mini hydroponics.

I wish I had taken photos but in those days it was important to stay under the radar.

Mm, did you start adding the act before or after the cuts were rooted?

Any hints on when to begin act with seedlings? Should I wait till cotys yellow and die?

Microbeman · May 7, 2019

CannaRed said:
Mm, did you start adding the act before or after the cuts were rooted?

Any hints on when to begin act with seedlings? Should I wait till cotys yellow and die?

after

Is there a standard LOS seedling mix?

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