number of tops vs total yield

doams · Feb 23, 2019

was thinking:
:laughing:

is there a max. total amount of buds/yield/total dry possible to be produced per plant but its divided between all the top colas?

4 top colas will produce same as 8/12/16 top colas they will be smaller the more top colas are there but total amount of buds possible is set?

but there must be certain amount of tops after which there is no difference in yield like with 20 top colas you will get same yield as with 4 top colas just those 4 top colas will be bigger than 20 top colas but yield is divided between all the tops so there is no point in 20 top colas..

anyone tried to do side by side with same strain / pot size and measured the yields?

but if total amount of buds possible to be produced per plant is not divided between all the tops then more colas means more yield?

but still think that more tops = more yield even if there are lots of smaller tops
I was bad at math :biggrin:

Frylock · Feb 23, 2019

I often wonder the same thing but i think you need to experiment on a plant by plant basis.
Some will benefit from multiple tops and some benefit from fewer tops.... but i generally like fewer plants and more tops.

dank.frank · Feb 23, 2019

No. Ultimately, root space, availability of nutrients, and environmental factors are what allow the genetic to reach maximum potential, and therefore achieve yields.

That is to imply, the plant must first possess the genetic potential to produce high numbers in the first place.

More or less tops, as a stand alone comparative, does not equate to any sort of determination of final yield.

dank.Frank

Frylock · Feb 23, 2019

dank.frank said:
More or less tops, as a stand alone comparative, does not equate to any sort of determination of final yield.

dank.Frank

How is that so?

If you have 2 identical clones grown in the exact same conditions and prune them differently and end up with different yields, how can that not be a useful test?

Isn't that why people scrog to begin with?

FrozenFire · Feb 23, 2019

Scrog is a low plant count technique to maximize the canopy area. There are many other methods for achieving this like stadium, doughnuts, sog, ect. Each method aims to make better use of available light with a controlled canopy at optimum distance from the light source. The main trade off with topping and scrog techniques is the additional veg time it requires as the plant heals and grows the extra biomass.

Personally I'm a huge fan of topping and scrogging in general as it's super effective for my grow style. I agree with dank frank. Yield is directly related to how well you can match your plants needs. Give a plant everything it needs in a dialed in environment and it will give you the best of its genetic potential. Maximizing plant canopy will boost yeild dramatically when good genetics are in play. It's a fun little puzzle to play with.

Frylock · Feb 23, 2019

So, you guys are saying pruning or training has ZERO effect on yield, given the same conditions?

Earlmarne · Feb 23, 2019

Ive never left a plant un topped be pretty amazing to have a 1 lb bud

popta · Feb 23, 2019

I'd say it's more like there's an ideal number of colas and whether that number is 1 or 10 in any particular case depends on the size of the plant, the strain, and the environment it's in.

So there's no single answer to your question. There would be situations when topping would hurt your yield and others where topping or training would be just the thing to maximize it.

GOT_BUD? · Feb 23, 2019

Frylock said:
So, you guys are saying pruning or training has ZERO effect on yield, given the same conditions?

No. What they are saying is there are too many variables to give you an accurate answer.

Douglas.Curtis · Feb 23, 2019

Frylock said:
How is that so?

If you have 2 identical clones grown in the exact same conditions and prune them differently and end up with different yields, how can that not be a useful test?

Isn't that why people scrog to begin with?

Frank is correct. :tiphat:

He's saying if you have 2 clones in the exact same conditions and prune them differently, there's no telling which one will yield more. You have to flower it out to find how it responds to your environment and management.

Genetics are the main factor. Some plants simply do not like growing more than one main flower. Scrog it and you end up with a screen full of popcorn and a huge flower wherever the true 'top' ends up in the screen. Some genetics love scrog, so the more tops (and veg time) you give it, the more flowers of the same size it will produce. (Cinderella-99 is sooo nice for this.)

Lots and lots and lots of variables. This is the main reason I like clones. Flower it out repeatedly and really get to know it.

theJointedOne · Feb 23, 2019

this thread makes my head hurt

Mr. Greengenes · Feb 23, 2019

"To a man who only has a hammer, everything he encounters begins to look like a nail" M. Twain

Of course I'm in agreement with Frank and Douglas and everyone saying genetics is the determining factor here, but I say that all the time so....

I do think there are certain plant structures that are better for Plant Jiu Jitsu (bending), which is probably the only environmental parameter that can actually increase yields. Bending works by increasing the 'light print' of the plant as viewed from above. When more light can penetrate to inner parts of the plant it will respond by increasing photosynthesis which you'll notice immediately because it will need more water and nutrients. All kinds of genetic traits play into how a plant responds to PJJ. For example, some plants have thick, strong stems than are not too woody. These plants will not spring back as much, but will stay put where you bend them, even if they have very short internodes. 'Beasty' fast growing plants with very short internodes are a real challenge, and basically need either a lot of PJJ or heavy lolly popping to keep air circulation up.

I guess what I'm saying is, some structures lend themselves better to training methods that actually DO increase yields a bit over what is genetically determined.

Illuminate · Feb 23, 2019

The variables equate to a simple conclusion.

dank.frank · Feb 23, 2019

Frylock said:
How is that so?

If you have 2 identical clones grown in the exact same conditions and prune them differently and end up with different yields, how can that not be a useful test?

Isn't that why people scrog to begin with?

Try to get 20 tops on a plant in a 1 gallon container of soil. Sure, you can veg it to that, try to flower it and watch it starve itself to death. That same plant side by side with a single cola may not starve itself as badly because the demand for it's energy has not been spread out so far.

Yields are achieved first and foremost by having adequate root mass. 2nd by having the proper environmental conditions. 3rd the plant must possess the genetic ability to produce in the first place. Not all plants are equal in that regard, no matter how you train them.

Yields are the result of many combined factors coming together in harmony. Not just creating more tops.

dank.Frank

f-e · Feb 23, 2019

This is much like a thread asking if defoliation gives gains. People will sit on the fence. There is a 3rd identical question though. Does training produce greater yields. Only this question has obvious enough answers to get an agreeable answer. Though it's the same question your asking, which just isn't specific enough to pin people down to a simple yes/no

Often low yielding strains just don't have the budding power for multiple heads, and trying will produce more than it can sustain, will lead to sparse and/or small buds with little bag appeal. However, I believe the weight has probably gone up. If you can be bothered to harvest it all.
Most strains will yield more. I'm not aware of any that will produce less. Some people certainly believe that the best outcome is to never touch their plants though. So they certainly don't agree with me.
I read in the 80s that nipping made more buds, of lower quality. That the root system was the limiting factor. Like a conservation of energy equation, where energy coming from the roots is distributed between bud or resin formation. You can't have it both ways.

I have only had one keeper that didn't want nipping. I don't think that helped with it's potency, and nor have I ever noticed lower potency from training for more bud sites. It just didn't want nipping, because it's main head would become unimpressive. Also.. It had to keep going straight up, or get left behind, as competition is fierce in my grow space.

As a blanket answer, where sitting on the fence just isn't an option, I would say yes without any hesitation. You get more bud from more bud sites. Presuming you can use them.

aridbud · Feb 23, 2019

dank.frank said:
No. Ultimately, root space, availability of nutrients, and environmental factors are what allow the genetic to reach maximum potential, and therefore achieve yields.

That is to imply, the plant must first possess the genetic potential to produce high numbers in the first place.

More or less tops, as a stand alone comparative, does not equate to any sort of determination of final yield.

dank.Frank

Spot on!
Too, don't concern yourself with yield. How good a finished product is most important!

Frylock · Feb 23, 2019

Douglas.Curtis said:
Frank is correct.
He's saying if you have 2 clones in the exact same conditions and prune them differently, there's no telling which one will yield more. You have to flower it out to find how it responds to your environment and management.

Genetics are the main factor. Some plants simply do not like growing more than one main flower. Scrog it and you end up with a screen full of popcorn and a huge flower wherever the true 'top' ends up in the screen. Some genetics love scrog, so the more tops (and veg time) you give it, the more flowers of the same size it will produce. (Cinderella-99 is sooo nice for this.)

Lots and lots and lots of variables. This is the main reason I like clones. Flower it out repeatedly and really get to know it.

Well, that's what i said in my first post.... you would have to test on a plant by plant basis....

Frylock · Feb 23, 2019

dank.frank said:
Try to get 20 tops on a plant in a 1 gallon container of soil. Sure, you can veg it to that, try to flower it and watch it starve itself to death. That same plant side by side with a single cola may not starve itself as badly because the demand for it's energy has not been spread out so far.

Yields are achieved first and foremost by having adequate root mass. 2nd by having the proper environmental conditions. 3rd the plant must possess the genetic ability to produce in the first place. Not all plants are equal in that regard, no matter how you train them.

Yields are the result of many combined factors coming together in harmony. Not just creating more tops.

dank.Frank

No sh*t.... it doesn't change what i said in my first post.

dank.frank · Feb 23, 2019

People come in here and sincerely try to help you because you don't understand basic biology or plant management and you want to get an attitude? If you already knew the answer to your question - why did you waste our time and server space posing the question.

Yeah. Never mind. I don't waste time on people like you. If this were a conversation in real life, I'd just get up and walk away. If there was a way to prevent you and only you from seeing every post on this site that I have ever made, I'd do it. #nofuckboys

dank.Frank

Frylock · Feb 23, 2019

dank.frank said:
People come in here and sincerely try to help you because you don't understand basic biology or plant management and you want to get an attitude? If you already knew the answer to your question - why did you waste our time and server space posing the question.

Yeah. Never mind. I don't waste time on people like you. If this were a conversation in real life, I'd just get up and walk away. If there was a way to prevent you and only you from seeing every post on this site that I have ever made, I'd do it. #nofuckboys

dank.Frank

I appreciated your input, thanks.... but i felt you guys were missing the point of his question (maybe i was missing the point IDK :dunno:

), that's all.

All things being equal, if you top or train the same clone and give them the same conditions, some WILL benefit and give a better flower to larf etc. ratio.

Maybe you will get the same weight (maybe not) but i am pretty confident that with certain clones you will get a better PERCENTAGE of your yield being choice tops (and vice versa).

As for wanting to block me from seeing any of your content #dramaqueen :redface:

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