Malaysian airliner crashes in E. Ukraine

like i said before in war the first casualty is the truth.

the black boxes will tell the story up to the moment and maybe up to the impact on the ground.

satellite imagery should show more. so far we have seen nothing, only words, words making it all look as one sided as possible. you know both sides are filming every inch of ground 24/7 over there. so give them time to show the pics.

in the Russian news they are showing the peoples Governor of Donesk region pleading with the investigators to come, it's hot and the bodies are doing what dead bodies do in 30° temps, so they are filming them, taking pics and packing them in body bags where after they are transported to cooled facilities. you think you should leave the dead bodies laying around? i saw an interview with an observer from the organization for European security on site, they were taking pics and saying how today there was an actual cordon around the site. he didn't seem to have any complaints about the way the bodies were being removed and taken away.

you have to understand the west have been bad mouthing the rebels there since the beginning, so they are doing more of the same. of course these guys have no real idea how to deal with such a situation either. many of them are just locals who took up arms.

as i said before this is a propaganda war, or an information war. Kiev is not exactly known for it's truthfulness since they came to power in the maidan revolution. trusting them when they say the rebels are hiding evidence is a bit naive, as they really do have ulterior motives to make the rebels look as bad as possible.

we should think back to the Iranian jet that was shot out of the sky and the amazing lies that were told by the US in the after math till finally years later they paid 500 million to settle it. Kiev has also shot down a passenger plane in the not too distant past over the black sea. they lied about it back then too, till international investigators finally confirmed that they had done it during a military exercise accidentally.

so yeah, only time will tell who is telling the truth. you certainly can't trust the mass media to make the call, they blindly report what ever government representatives tell them and they will always be political before anything else. not a one of them would place integrity, before political posturing and opportunism.

edited to add, i was told by pm that the reparations sum paid by the US was not 500 million, point remain they apologized and paid up making their guilt apparent.

You are a little generous Gaius: In 1996 (incident occurred in 1988) the US paid $131,800,000 with an apology with about $62 million of that going to the 'heirs and legatees' of the 248 Iranian victims. As part of their settlement agreement they did not accept legal responsibility. This link leads to the full settlement agreement:

http://www.icj-cij.org/docket/files/79/11131.pdf

As far as I know their was no financial settlement from Russia when they shot down Korea Air Flight 007 in 1983...

no one is saying "leave the bodies where they fell." what I am saying is that, according to news reports from that part of the world, the separatists may be hauling off pieces of the plane critical to identifying exactly what happened to it before international investigators see them/test for various explosives. or are you suggesting that the rest of the world should just take their word for it? moving pieces of the wreckage BEFORE they are investigated will prevent the truth from ever being made public...

duplicate post

gaiusmarius said:

the black boxes will tell the story up to the moment and maybe up to the impact on the ground.

Click to expand...

According to the aviation experts who I saw interviewed, when a missile hits a plane, the black box will record the initial "bang", and then, in milliseconds, go blank. There will be nothing more after that.
I don't see the mystery, though. We have satellite imagery of the missile being fired 30 seconds before impact. Now under "normal" circumstances, I would be skeptical of anything the government tells me, however, I would not believe a word that comes out of Putin's mouth. He is KGB, and killing people is/was part of his job. Even the Russian news reporters have resigned in protest, because they were tired of being forced to lie on a daily basis. Propaganda is still alive and well in Russia. Not much has really changed from the communist state.

watts said:

Well Malaysian airlines suck

Click to expand...

No they fucking dont

I flew with them half a dozen times on long haul journeys and i must say they have beautiful stewardesses and good food.

FUCK THE HATERS

I just have to laugh at the conversation being had here. You guys don't know who is responsible? You can't figure out what kind of hardware is required to shoot a plane out of the sky at 30,000ft. The second this story broke before I heard anything from news outlets I knew what happened. Only one answer when you break down the facts. No false flag.

Just in case you didn't think Russia was capable of something like this.....
http://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/korean-airlines-flight-shot-down-by-soviet-union

http://rt.com/news/174412-malaysia-plane-russia-ukraine/

Ukrainian Su-25 fighter detected in close approach to MH17 before crash - Moscow



The Russian military detected a Ukrainian SU-25 fighter jet gaining height towards the MH17 Boeing on the day of the catastrophe. Kiev must explain why the military jet was tracking the passenger airplane, the Russian Defense Ministry said.

“A Ukraine Air Force military jet was detected gaining height, it’s distance from the Malaysian Boeing was 3 to 5km,” said the head of the Main Operations Directorate of the HQ of Russia’s military forces, Lieutenant-General Andrey Kartopolov speaking at a media conference in Moscow on Monday.

“[We] would like to get an explanation as to why the military jet was flying along a civil aviation corridor at almost the same time and at the same level as a passenger plane,” he stated.
“The SU-25 fighter jet can gain an altitude of 10km, according to its specification,” he added. “It’s equipped with air-to-air R-60 missiles that can hit a target at a distance up to 12km, up to 5km for sure.”
The presence of the Ukrainian military jet can be confirmed by video shots made by the Rostov monitoring center, Kartopolov stated.
At the moment of the MH17 crash an American satellite was flying over the area of eastern Ukraine, according to Russia’s Defense Ministry. It urged the US to publish the space photos and data captured by it.
‘Ukrainian Buk missile system transported to militia-held area’

In addition, MH17 crashed within the operating zone of the Ukrainian army’s self-propelled, medium-range surface-to-air ‘Buk’ missile systems, the Russian general said.
“We have space images of certain places where the Ukraine’s air defense was located in the southeast of the country,” Kartapolov noted.

The first three shots that were shown by the general are dated July 14. The images show Buk missile launch systems in about 8km northwest of the city of Lugansk – a self-propelled vehicle and two launchers, according to the military official.
Another image shows a radar station near Donetsk.

Photo courtesy of the Russian Defense Ministry


While the third picture shows the location of the air defense systems near Donetsk, he explained. In particular, one can clearly see the self-propelled system, about 60 units of military and special equipment, he elaborated.

Photo courtesy of the Russian Defense Ministry


“Images from this area were also made on July 17. One should notice that the missile launcher is absent [from the scene]. Image number five shows the Buk missile system in the morning of the same day in the area of settlement Zaroschinskoe – 50km south of Donetsk and 8km south of Shakhtyorsk," the Kartapolov said

Photo courtesy of the Russian Defense Ministry



Photo courtesy of the Russian Defense Ministry


The question that has to be answered is why the missile system appeared in the area controlled by the local militia forces shortly before the catastrophe, he stated.

Images taken on July 18 show that the missile systems left the area of the MH17 crash on July 17, the military official said.

Kartapolov also pointed to the fact that on the day of the plane crash Ukraine’s military increased the intensity of the radar stations of the Buk missile systems.
In response to Moscow’s evidence, Kiev said on Monday it had proof the missile that brought down a Malaysian airliner last week came from Russia.

"There is evidence that the missile which struck the plane was fired by terrorists, who received arms and specialists from the Russian Federation," spokesman for Ukraine's Security Council Andrey Lysenko told a news conference. "To disown this tragedy, [Russia] are drawing a lot of pictures and maps. We will explore any photos and other plans produced by the Russian side."
4.7K2K21

yeah yeah of course, big bad Putin, the one who drone kills all over the place, the one who tortures, the one who starts wars in Afghanistan, Iraq, Yemen, Somalia, the one who destroyed Lybia, oh wait hang on, that wasn't Putin was it? he was against every one of those, oh right, thats why he's the bad guy, i get it. can't be against bombing countries to the middle ages when the US says its time to do so. sorry but you are being misinformed about this event, Russia has just reported on their preliminary satelite and radar data investigation and they have some very interesting pictures to show the world. not just words, turns out the Ukrainian army actually deployed those buk systems near the area a day or 2 before and took them away a day after the plane was shot. like i said it's breaking news now on Russian TV. they are actually presenting a bunch of facts and asking questions, they are still not throwing wild accusations around like the amatuers in charge at the state department.

really think about it, why would the Russians do such a thing? it destroys everything they have been trying to achieve with the Brics organization and it endangers all the diplomatic initiatives in every part of the world. it's the stupidest thing they could have done at the stupidest time they could have done it. they have been making hard core efforts for the last 5 years to try and get this planet back to a multipolar rule, they have been making deals with every one who had something to offer, all their efforts have been focused on diplomacy and business relations with as many nations as possible, so really, why risk the ire of the whole world when all you have to do is wait and watch as the Kiev government colapses due to going bankrupt. Ukraine as a country is in so much economic trouble that it needs 30 billion just to stay afloat, their industry is in tatters, their agriculture is a mess. the one thing they have is the gas fields that were discovered last year in the western part. they actually got Bidens son a job in the Ukrainian gas company, at the same time congress has decided to help Ukraine double its gas output in 1 year. anyway back to the point, the Russians also have radar data showing that a Ukrainian military plane was picked up close to the boing 777 at the time of the event. they are asking their American counterparts to share images from a satellite they say could see everything perfectly.

try find the press conference that was just given today by the Russian military. just wish they had better translators. still with time the transcript will come out, probably only in the alternative media, but yeah he who seeks will find.

http://ronpaulinstitute.org/archive...ort-about-malaysian-airlines-flight-mh17.aspx

What the Media Won’t Report About Malaysian Airlines Flight MH17

Written by Ron Paul

Sunday July 20, 2014




Just days after the tragic crash of a Malaysian Airlines flight over eastern Ukraine, Western politicians and media joined together to gain the maximum propaganda value from the disaster. It had to be Russia; it had to be Putin, they said. President Obama held a press conference to claim – even before an investigation – that it was pro-Russian rebels in the region who were responsible. His ambassador to the UN, Samantha Power, did the same at the UN Security Council – just one day after the crash!

While western media outlets rush to repeat government propaganda on the event, there are a few things they will not report.

They will not report that the crisis in Ukraine started late last year, when EU and US-supported protesters plotted the overthrow of the elected Ukrainian president, Viktor Yanukovych. Without US-sponsored “regime change,” it is unlikely that hundreds would have been killed in the unrest that followed. Nor would the Malaysian Airlines crash have happened.

The media has reported that the plane must have been shot down by Russian forces or Russian-backed separatists, because the missile that reportedly brought down the plane was Russian made. But they will not report that the Ukrainian government also uses the exact same Russian-made weapons.

They will not report that the post-coup government in Kiev has, according to OSCE monitors, killed 250 people in the breakaway Lugansk region since June, including 20 killed as government forces bombed the city center the day after the plane crash! Most of these are civilians and together they roughly equal the number killed in the plane crash. By contrast, Russia has killed no one in Ukraine, and the separatists have struck largely military, not civilian, targets.

They will not report that the US has strongly backed the Ukrainian government in these attacks on civilians, which a State Department spokeswoman called “measured and moderate.”

They will not report that neither Russia nor the separatists in eastern Ukraine have anything to gain but everything to lose by shooting down a passenger liner full of civilians.

They will not report that the Ukrainian government has much to gain by pinning the attack on Russia, and that the Ukrainian prime minister has already expressed his pleasure that Russia is being blamed for the attack.

They will not report that the missile that apparently shot down the plane was from a sophisticated surface-to-air missile system that requires a good deal of training that the separatists do not have.

They will not report that the separatists in eastern Ukraine have inflicted considerable losses on the Ukrainian government in the week before the plane was downed.

They will not report how similar this is to last summer’s US claim that the Assad government in Syria had used poison gas against civilians in Ghouta. Assad was also gaining the upper hand in his struggle with US-backed rebels and the US claimed that the attack came from Syrian government positions. Then, US claims led us to the brink of another war in the Middle East. At the last minute public opposition forced Obama to back down – and we have learned since then that US claims about the gas attack were false.

Of course it is entirely possible that the Obama administration and the US media has it right this time, and Russia or the separatists in eastern Ukraine either purposely or inadvertently shot down this aircraft. The real point is, it's very difficult to get accurate information so everybody engages in propaganda. At this point it would be unwise to say the Russians did it, the Ukrainian government did it, or the rebels did it. Is it so hard to simply demand a real investigation?

Ron Paul is as insightful and inteligent as ever.

Obama is lying as ever, he still says investigators are not being allowed out to the site, but the OSCE organization for security cooperation Europe made statements saying they are having complete access. the more time passes the more the lies are getting disproved. it's why they rush to judgement, they know any real investigation will show the truth.

any objective investigator in the aviation field will tell you that no one can know yet.

this is being used against Russia.

even the tale of looting turns out to be a distortion. they show a pic from a segment of footage. when you see the whole footage you see the guy is crossing himself and putting the teddy back after a brief head bow and self crossing. but the pic they use is the moment he picks it up and then the caption is about looting. it's disgusting, they did it on purpose, they want to dehumanize these people and make us think they are not just like our moms and dads, brother and sisters wifes etc. no they are inhumane who would loot a teddy bear from a airplane wreck. but people will believe anything if it's written in a free newspaper or on the so called news. nowadays all those news organizations take all their news from 1 source, no investigation is done. don't you guys remember the weapons of mass destruction? we were all sure, the gov and all the media were saying the same thing.

I think it´s time to come back and clear the situation.

Hermanthegerman said:

I think it´s time to come back and clear the situation.

View Image

Click to expand...

It might work the second time?...or is it the third time?

Pinball Wizard said:

It might work the second time?...or is it the third time?

View Image

Click to expand...

Definitivly one time to much

yes they generally crash and burn after an explosive is shot at it...

Malaysia Airlines' Black Boxes 'to be Handed Over' to Investigators, Says Malaysian Prime Minister Najab Razak

The two black boxes of downed Malaysia Airlines plane that left 298 people dead will be "handed over" today to Malaysian officials and that independent investigators will be given safe access to the debris site, according to Malaysian Prime Minister Najib Razak.

Click to expand...

Certainly this contradicts these claims.

Russia 'Told Rebels To Hide MH17's Black Boxes'

Ukraine's security service has released a recording it says features pro-Russian separatists talking about trying to hide the black boxes from flight MH17 at the request of Moscow.

Click to expand...

Hm, i think I have to apologize, made my bloody jokes here, read before some minutes about the tragedy in the Familys.

Sorry, I had to know better!

https://www.facebook.com/hdeborst?hc_location=timeline

gaiusmarius said:

yeah yeah of course, big bad Putin, the one who drone kills all over the place, the one who tortures, the one who starts wars in Afghanistan, Iraq, Yemen, Somalia, the one who destroyed Lybia, oh wait hang on, that wasn't Putin was it? he was against every one of those, oh right, thats why he's the bad guy, i get it. can't be against bombing countries to the middle ages when the US says its time to do so. sorry but you are being misinformed about this event, Russia has just reported on their preliminary satelite and radar data investigation and they have some very interesting pictures to show the world. not just words, turns out the Ukrainian army actually deployed those buk systems near the area a day or 2 before and took them away a day after the plane was shot. like i said it's breaking news now on Russian TV. they are actually presenting a bunch of facts and asking questions, they are still not throwing wild accusations around like the amatuers in charge at the state department.

really think about it, why would the Russians do such a thing? it destroys everything they have been trying to achieve with the Brics organization and it endangers all the diplomatic initiatives in every part of the world. it's the stupidest thing they could have done at the stupidest time they could have done it. they have been making hard core efforts for the last 5 years to try and get this planet back to a multipolar rule, they have been making deals with every one who had something to offer, all their efforts have been focused on diplomacy and business relations with as many nations as possible, so really, why risk the ire of the whole world when all you have to do is wait and watch as the Kiev government colapses due to going bankrupt. Ukraine as a country is in so much economic trouble that it needs 30 billion just to stay afloat, their industry is in tatters, their agriculture is a mess. the one thing they have is the gas fields that were discovered last year in the western part. they actually got Bidens son a job in the Ukrainian gas company, at the same time congress has decided to help Ukraine double its gas output in 1 year. anyway back to the point, the Russians also have radar data showing that a Ukrainian military plane was picked up close to the boing 777 at the time of the event. they are asking their American counterparts to share images from a satellite they say could see everything perfectly.

try find the press conference that was just given today by the Russian military. just wish they had better translators. still with time the transcript will come out, probably only in the alternative media, but yeah he who seeks will find.

Click to expand...

It was a mistake. We know that. They (Ukranian seperatists) fucked up. Their own voice communications make that pretty clear. And, in no way am I defending the actions of the U.S. government in other theaters of war. We don't need to be bombing muslim countries. They are destroying one another and themselves anyway. They enjoy the stone age, so let them be. Bush and Obama are both criminals, IMO.
But that doesn't make Putin a "good guy". He is a scumbag, murdering KGB agent.

With Obama sending the signal to the world of Non American Military intervention, Putin and the rest of the world's warlords have the green light and that includes killing as many civilians as needed to achieve their political objectives.

Nothing will happen to Putin until the Russian People rise up and remove their dictator.