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Can someone help me identify this deficiency/ deficiencies please?

there goes edro

Well-known member
Veteran
Ever since I started growing in organic amended soil I've been having micronutrient problems of one kind or another. Wrinkling leaves, putting of mid and upper leaves and inveinal chlorosis all over the plant. It's been attempting to throw all this organic shit away and go back to chem fertilizer where I didn't struggle with these problems but my wife and I both agree that we enjoy the finish product better from organic but my yields have declined. I've heard that ph shouldn't be a factor in organics but I have a pen anyways because of these constant headaches! Ph at 6.2. Runoff at 1550 ppm but once again I hear ppm is not really relevant in organic growing but wanted to see what it is.
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These are all different plants. First 3 pics are all clones of the same strain. Last pic is a much older plant that I'm begging. Any help would be much appreciated IC!
 

unregistered190

Senior
Veteran
Hey edro, I have only recently started growing in soil with organic nutes but I still pH my nutrients to ~6.0 - 6.4ish. I used fox farm soil amended with some EWC, bio-char, and volcanic rock dust. Feed them fish fertilizer.

Some more info about your soil and nutes may help someone help you better.

Good luck and hope they get happy for you!
 

slownickel

Active member
ICMag Donor
Veteran
What pH are your watering/fertilizing at? Looks like Mg may be low. Could be several things. What all are you applying?

As a large organic farmer (300+acres) I can tell you pH does matter whether your are organic or not. Lot of BS out there in the Organic community. Ph has a lot to do with how light your mix is.
 

there goes edro

Well-known member
Veteran
I'm going to have to get another soil test. To make a long story short probs started third time recycling soil. Lightly amended with ewc, blood meal, bone meal, and kelp meal. That round I added some compost because I heard it was a good soil conditioner and been having problems ever since. Soil has been flushed multiple times dolomite lime added. Eventually I got my soil tested and all nutrient levels were thru the roof. I've flushed and mix in fresh peat and Organic Mechanic soil to dilute the high nutrient soil. Since problems started when I moved I thought maybe it's my water source so I tried using distilled water but same problems occurring. I didn't amend for a few runs to allow the plants to use to nutrients in soil. Sending some more soil in to get tested to if I can find a solution. Think I might have to face facts that somehow I've fucked this soil up to the point I can't fix it and throw away. Just with all the other soils I've added to dilute I'll be throwing a couple hundred gallons of soil. Never been the giving up type but after years of disappointing crops it may be time to say fuck it and go back chem nutes and stop wasting time and money. I really love the whole ideology of growing organically but it may not be for me.
 

there goes edro

Well-known member
Veteran
Hey edro, I have only recently started growing in soil with organic nutes but I still pH my nutrients to ~6.0 - 6.4ish. I used fox farm soil amended with some EWC, bio-char, and volcanic rock dust. Feed them fish fertilizer.

Some more info about your soil and nutes may help someone help you better.

Good luck and hope they get happy for you!

Seen you around for a few years around here! Thanks for checking in!
 

there goes edro

Well-known member
Veteran
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I don't want y'all to think it's all doom and gloom. For the most part the plants pull thru and improve in flower but I know my yields would be better if I can keep the nute lock from happening in veg. Here a few plants in the same soil at 4 weeks into flower.
 

slownickel

Active member
ICMag Donor
Veteran
Ah, I see said the blind man.

You are reusing your mix, this means that things are breaking down. That is good and bad. Good because there are lots of goodies left over, bad because the mix is getting heavier and heavier. When you water exactly as before, you are probably now over watering. All the worm castings and compost, if well made, just plugged the soil even more. And to add the last knife to the heart, you added dolomite. Dolomite is calcium and MAGNESIUM carbonate. Mg can easily go toxic. Never add Mg to a soil, even in mediums or hydro, if you grow correctly, you can use a fraction of that magnesium. And Mg is what gives you the scratchy weed. This is a science pal.

Sodium is building up. Soon as you said you are adding kelp. Dang. Stuff is loaded with sodium.

Get an analysis done, in the meantime gets some Diamond 95 water sol gypsum and water through 5 gr/gal of gyp.

Then start feeding good quantities of K. 2 or 3 gr/gal of KS or KN.

Always pH to 5.9 - 6.0 (except with gyp or any Ca product)
 
Last edited:

TanzanianMagic

Well-known member
Veteran
Ever since I started growing in organic amended soil I've been having micronutrient problems of one kind or another. Wrinkling leaves, putting of mid and upper leaves and inveinal chlorosis all over the plant. It's been attempting to throw all this organic shit away and go back to chem fertilizer where I didn't struggle with these problems but my wife and I both agree that we enjoy the finish product better from organic but my yields have declined. I've heard that ph shouldn't be a factor in organics but I have a pen anyways because of these constant headaches! Ph at 6.2. Runoff at 1550 ppm but once again I hear ppm is not really relevant in organic growing but wanted to see what it is.View Image View Image View Image View Image

These are all different plants. First 3 pics are all clones of the same strain. Last pic is a much older plant that I'm begging. Any help would be much appreciated IC!
Two points.

1. The pH is too low for organics.

It should be closer to 7.0, especially at the start of the grow. High pH enables uptake of macro-nutrients, N, P, K and Mg.

The solution is to feed (low concentration) at 8.0 pH a couple of times and go back to 7.0.

2. Check for bugs

Some of the dots look like leafhopper damage. Mites are also dangerous, nearly invisible (and look like small specks of dirt when you do see them), and are so small that they create nutrient deficiency before anything else.
 

slownickel

Active member
ICMag Donor
Veteran
Two points.

1. The pH is too low for organics.

It should be closer to 7.0, especially at the start of the grow. High pH enables uptake of macro-nutrients, N, P, K and Mg.

The solution is to feed (low concentration) at 8.0 pH a couple of times and go back to 7.0.

2. Check for bugs

Some of the dots look like leafhopper damage. Mites are also dangerous, nearly invisible (and look like small specks of dirt when you do see them), and are so small that they create nutrient deficiency before anything else.

Organics or not has little to do with pH. If the mix is very loose, you need a lower pH. If it is more of a soil, no problem with a pH of 7.

Moving pH up and down is a good idea and should be practiced most definitely BUT with lots of care. If the soil is a loose mix, that high a pH will lock the most important elements out.

Not that a higher pH doesn't work, lots of things WORK. I am talking about if you want higher oil content and active ingredients where one can get consumer pull from the WOW effect.
 

TanzanianMagic

Well-known member
Veteran
Organics or not has little to do with pH. If the mix is very loose, you need a lower pH. If it is more of a soil, no problem with a pH of 7.

Moving pH up and down is a good idea and should be practiced most definitely BUT with lots of care. If the soil is a loose mix, that high a pH will lock the most important elements out.

Not that a higher pH doesn't work, lots of things WORK. I am talking about if you want higher oil content and active ingredients where one can get consumer pull from the WOW effect.
PH is always important, however it changes with the medium and grow style.

If you have a thriving micro-herd, then the pH should be 7.0, because that is best for bacteria.

Many 'organic' grows are just using heavily chelated liquid organic nutrients, which aren't that different fom synthetic nutrients.

Anyway, early on in the grow you need uptake of NPK and Mg, and that happens at a higher pH. They are also mobile nutrients, so when a mobile nutrient deficiency presents itself, pH is one of the first things to look at.

And you can always lower the pH at the end of the grow for better non-mobile trace element uptake.
 

there goes edro

Well-known member
Veteran
Been chasing issues for a couple of years now. Turns out it was broad mites all the long. It's one of things that while I'm reading it I'm thinking that could never happen to me. I only start from seeds and keep my own clones. Guess again.
 

slownickel

Active member
ICMag Donor
Veteran
PH is always important, however it changes with the medium and grow style.

If you have a thriving micro-herd, then the pH should be 7.0, because that is best for bacteria.

Many 'organic' grows are just using heavily chelated liquid organic nutrients, which aren't that different fom synthetic nutrients.

Anyway, early on in the grow you need uptake of NPK and Mg, and that happens at a higher pH. They are also mobile nutrients, so when a mobile nutrient deficiency presents itself, pH is one of the first things to look at.

And you can always lower the pH at the end of the grow for better non-mobile trace element uptake.

At that high a pH you will not get enough Cu or Mn uptake, both of which are critical.

Highly recommended to only try one plant with experimentation. Too many talking heads out there with opinions, not based on a lot of science.

If God walks in tomorrow and gives you a recommendation, only try on ONE PLANT!!!!
 

slownickel

Active member
ICMag Donor
Veteran
Been chasing issues for a couple of years now. Turns out it was broad mites all the long. It's one of things that while I'm reading it I'm thinking that could never happen to me. I only start from seeds and keep my own clones. Guess again.

Use hot water for your treating your mediums, especially if you are reusing your mix.

Important to have a constant scoping methodology in place.
 

there goes edro

Well-known member
Veteran
I've killed off everything I had vegging. In the process of bleaching down the entire room. Planning on treating soil with hot water and then top dressing with diatomaceous earth before using again. Plan on spraying down new plants on a weekly basis with green cleaner to prevent any reemergence of these little bastards! I had no idea that I needed to regularly mix my plants. I didnt even know bugs could be an issue if you hadn't introduced outsourced clones. I still have no idea how they got into my garden but you live and you learn. I must say it was an eye opening experience actually seeing something so small that does so much damage sk quick. I only noticed a few on each plant. Any other advice or recommendations much appreciated. Thanks!
 

there goes edro

Well-known member
Veteran
Off to a much better start

Off to a much better start

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After trashing everything and a complete bleaching my newest around of plants look much happier. Just a few yellow leaves from me under feeding them a little but seem in good condition. Used Diatomaceous Earth for top dress and applied to stems. No signs of mites yet. I will be spraying some green cleaner today for the first time just as ipm. Will also be doing a mic session later on. Still paranoid because of multiple reports of broad mites on reappearing so must practice due diligence. Enjoy that weekend IC!
 

there goes edro

Well-known member
Veteran
Off to a much better start

Off to a much better start

picture.php
picture.php

After trashing everything and a complete bleaching my newest around of plants look much happier. Just a few yellow leaves from me under feeding them a little but seem in good condition. Used Diatomaceous Earth for top dress and applied to stems. No signs of mites yet. I will be spraying some green cleaner today for the first time just as ipm. Will also be doing a mic session later on. Still paranoid because of multiple reports of broad mites on reappearing so must practice due diligence. Enjoy that weekend IC!
 

TanzanianMagic

Well-known member
Veteran
At that high a pH you will not get enough Cu or Mn uptake, both of which are critical.
7.0 is not too high a pH for organics.

Different media have different optimal pH ranges. And in organics, 7.0 is the middle of the range of 6.0 to 8.0 that you want for aerobic bacteria and fungi.

Also, you should primarily create your pH through your media. If it is under 7.0 or there is peat in it, add magnesium lime.

In growing in pure coco coir, the optimal pH is 6.0, which also happens to be the pH of the medium itself (5.8 to 6.2). If you feed with a liquid solution and pH that to 6.0 for most of the grow, you don't challenge the buffering capacity of the coco coir, and you don't have any pH swings.

In hydroponics, the optimal pH is even lower.
 

TanzanianMagic

Well-known member
Veteran
I've killed off everything I had vegging. In the process of bleaching down the entire room. Planning on treating soil with hot water and then top dressing with diatomaceous earth before using again. Plan on spraying down new plants on a weekly basis with green cleaner to prevent any reemergence of these little bastards! I had no idea that I needed to regularly mix my plants. I didnt even know bugs could be an issue if you hadn't introduced outsourced clones. I still have no idea how they got into my garden but you live and you learn. I must say it was an eye opening experience actually seeing something so small that does so much damage sk quick. I only noticed a few on each plant. Any other advice or recommendations much appreciated. Thanks!
The plants are looking great.

So it were bugs who did it.

You can also preventively use predatory mites.

Great to see your grow is doing great.

Cheers
 

Cactus Wes

Active member
I just had a hand full of seedlings stunt out on me and die too. I moved some soil away from the stem to peek at some root action on a young seedling; and I found a soil bug munching away at the seedling. lol
It's a ROOKIE mistake to not heat sterilize the soil even if only doing it for seedling soil.
Once I done that the next hand full of seedlings cracked out and sprouted up much quicker and sturdier. I have near 100% germination rates when soil is heat sterilized and seedling is washed with hydrogen peroxide.
And the one recent time I didn't do it; I got bugs.
Congratulations; you just got your soil badge.
 

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