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Myths about THC and CBD's

headband 707

Plant whisperer
Veteran
Many people claim that high amounts of CBD in marijuana causes that body stone/sedative effect associated with indica plants. However, there is much scientific evidence against that idea. Indeed, studies have shown that adding CBD to THC causes one to be more awake!
By contrast, THC alone has more sedative effects. Indeed, CBD is just an antagonist of CB1 receptors. It is probably true then that indica plants have a very high THC % compared to sativas and this has a stronger biphasic stimulant/sedative effect (CB1 receptors are the most widespread receptors in the brain, so its not unlikely that they can do both). The amount of CBD in most drug strains probably has no effect at all since CBD is not present in large amounts and has a much lower affinity for CB1 receptors compared to THC.
Here are some articles to prove my point.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16844117

FEBS Lett. 2006 Aug 7;580(18):4337-45. Epub 2006 Jul 10.
Cannabidiol, a constituent of Cannabis sativa, modulates sleep in rats.
Murillo-Rodríguez E, Millán-Aldaco D, Palomero-Rivero M, Mechoulam R, Drucker-Colín R.
Depto de Neurociencias, Instituto de Fisiología Celular, Ciudad Universitaria, Circuito Interior, Universidad Nacional Autónoma de México, México DF, CP 04510, Mexico.
Abstract
Delta(9)-tetrahydrocannabinol (Delta(9)-THC) and cannabidiol (CBD) are two major constituents of Cannabis sativa. Delta(9)-THC modulates sleep, but no clear evidence on the role of CBD is available. In order to determine the effects of CBD on sleep, it was administered intracerebroventricular (icv) in a dose of 10 microg/5 microl at the beginning of either the lights-on or the lights-off period. We found that CBD administered during the lights-on period increased wakefulness (W) and decreased rapid eye movement sleep (REMS). No changes on sleep were observed during the dark phase. Icv injections of CBD (10 microg/5microl) induced an enhancement of c-Fos expression in waking-related brain areas such as hypothalamus and dorsal raphe nucleus (DRD). Microdialysis in unanesthetized rats was carried out to characterize the effects of icv administration of CBD (10 microg/5 microl) on extracellular levels of dopamine (DA) within the nucleus accumbens. CBD induced an increase in DA release. Finally, in order to test if the waking properties of CBD could be blocked by the sleep-inducing endocannabinoid anandamide (ANA), animals received ANA (10 microg/2.5 microl, icv) followed 15 min later by CBD (10 microg/2.5 microl). Results showed that the waking properties of CBD were not blocked by ANA. In conclusion, we found that CBD modulates waking via activation of neurons in the hypothalamus and DRD. Both regions are apparently involved in the generation of alertness. Also, CBD increases DA levels as measured by microdialysis and HPLC procedures. Since CBD induces alertness, it might be of therapeutic value in sleep disorders such as excessive somnolence.
PMID: 16844117 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

In conclusion, we found that CBD modulates waking via activation of neurons in the hypothalamus and DRD. Both regions are apparently involved in the generation of alertness. Also, CBD increases DA levels as measured by microdialysis and HPLC procedures. Since CBD induces alertness, it might be of therapeutic value in sleep disorders such as excessive somnolence.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15118485
With the concomitant administration of the drugs (5 mg THC and 5 mg CBD to 15 mg THC and 15 mg CBD), there was a decrease in stage 3 sleep, and with the higher dose combination, wakefulness was increased. The next day, with 15 mg THC, memory was impaired, sleep latency was reduced, and the subjects reported increased sleepiness and changes in mood. With the lower dose combination, reaction time was faster on the digit recall task, and with the higher dose combination, subjects reported increased sleepiness and changes in mood. Fifteen milligrams THC would appear to be sedative, while 15 mg CBD appears to have alerting properties as it increased awake activity during sleep and counteracted the residual sedative activity of 15 mg THC
Clin Psychopharmacol. 2004 Jun;24(3):305-13.
Effect of Delta-9-tetrahydrocannabinol and cannabidiol on nocturnal sleep and early-morning behavior in young adults.
Nicholson AN, Turner C, Stone BM, Robson PJ.
QinetiQ Ltd, Centre for Human Sciences, Cody Technology Park, Ively Road, Farnborough, Hampshire GU14 0LX, UK.
Abstract
The effects of cannabis extracts on nocturnal sleep, early-morning performance, memory, and sleepiness were studied in 8 healthy volunteers (4 males, 4 females; 21 to 34 years). The study was double-blind and placebo-controlled with a 4-way crossover design. The 4 treatments were placebo, 15 mg Delta-9-tetrahydrocannabinol (THC), 5 mg THC combined with 5 mg cannabidiol (CBD), and 15 mg THC combined with 15 mg CBD. These were formulated in 50:50 ethanol to propylene glycol and administered using an oromucosal spray during a 30-minute period from 10 pm. The electroencephalogram was recorded during the sleep period (11 pm to 7 am). Performance, sleep latency, and subjective assessments of sleepiness and mood were measured from 8:30 am (10 hours after drug administration). There were no effects of 15 mg THC on nocturnal sleep. With the concomitant administration of the drugs (5 mg THC and 5 mg CBD to 15 mg THC and 15 mg CBD), there was a decrease in stage 3 sleep, and with the higher dose combination, wakefulness was increased. The next day, with 15 mg THC, memory was impaired, sleep latency was reduced, and the subjects reported increased sleepiness and changes in mood. With the lower dose combination, reaction time was faster on the digit recall task, and with the higher dose combination, subjects reported increased sleepiness and changes in mood. Fifteen milligrams THC would appear to be sedative, while 15 mg CBD appears to have alerting properties as it increased awake activity during sleep and counteracted the residual sedative activity of 15 mg THC.
PMID: 15118485 [PubMed
 

BudToker

Active member
Veteran
Thanks for the read. Good ol' cannabidol info confirming some assumptions that I have while not being able to sleep. :)

- BT:joint:

26307-5509Bush.jpg
 

headband 707

Plant whisperer
Veteran
Thanks for the read. Good ol' cannabidol info confirming some assumptions that I have while not being able to sleep. :)

- BT:joint:

26307-5509Bush.jpg

Grand Daddy Purple should knock you right out LOL if you are looking for sleep let me know and I will give you my list of what works on me .. peace out Headband707:artist:
 

BudToker

Active member
Veteran
Hey 707. I have tried GDP with no luck. I am interested in your advice. What do you like to smoke to get some Z's?

-BT:joint:
 

headband 707

Plant whisperer
Veteran
Okay bro I have a few tricks up my sleaves ..
If your growing one of the things you can do with your crop is let it the Trichomes go amber and you can push this and the longer you push that the sleepier the cannabis becomes. There is still only a 2 week window so don't push it too much lol.. Stay within that range and you will get a very narcotic cannabis.
Another great trick and I use this one all the time and it seems to be very popular is cooking cannabis with olive oil ,sunflower oil. You can use fresh bud for this one I find it works well aswell. I use the leaf for this and for some this knocks them right out and for others they say "no I can do this all day" . So it again will depend on you and the bud you use in the mix. Carboxylation seems to be the key here so work with that.
You can just make cookies and eat them aswell the more you injest the sleepier you should become.
I find that anyway you can find to eat cannabis is usually the way it will induce sleep and top that with your growing technics and you should be golden.Tincture is another one but again it will depend on the cannabis used and of-course your own body,There are also canna caps caps full of carboxiated cannabis which again you can make yourself . I left a post somewhere here in this forum about how to make them lol..peace out Headband707

I also put up a post on "Which cannabis does what" for that type of info
 
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headband 707

Plant whisperer
Veteran
When anti-harm reduction drug warriors rant against laws allowing for medicinal use of cannabis, they always trot out insomnia as an example of a trivial ailment for which a medical marijuana recommendation can be written.

Far from being trivial, the impact of insomnia on your health is enormous. Complications from insomnia include daytime fatigue, difficulty paying attention or focusing on tasks, tension headaches, gastrointestinal upset, lower performance on the job or at school, slowed reactiontime while driving and higher risk of accidents, weight gain or obesity, poor immune system function, increased risk and severity of long-term diseases, such as high blood pressure, heart disease and diabetes and psychiatric problems, such as irritability, depression and anxiety.

Robert Goldberg, Ph.D. of The Center for Medicine in the Public Interest has stated that "we should treat insomnia as it should be treated: a serious medical condition that has significant health and economic implications.” A survey conducted by the Washington-based National Sleep Foundation estimated the annual medical and reduced productivity costs associated with insomnia among U.S. workers to be $92.5 to $107.5 billion.

The Institutes of Medicine, which advises Congress on health policy, reports that Americans spend nearly $3 billion a year trying to get to sleep. Consumer Reports warns readers that all these medications can cause dependency, and even worsen sleeping problems along with significant side effects such as daytime sleepiness, cognitive impairment, dizziness, unsteadiness, rebound insomnia, sleep-walking, sleep-driving, memory lapses, and hallucinations. Ambienone of the most popular insomnia medications with physicians writing 26 million prescriptions a year, was reported by the New York Times to make the top 10 list of drugs found in impaired drivers.

Desperate for sleep, turning to extremes is all too commonplace. Michael Jackson died trying to get to sleep. The night of his death, his doctor had prescribed a host of medications including Valium, Ativan, Versed and Propofol. Obviously this is an unconscionable use of prescription pharmaceuticals, but Michael Jackson is not the first celebrity who died from using medications to treat insomnia. Heath Ledger, Anna Nicole Smith, Elvis Presley, Judy Garland and Marilyn Monroe all died from prescription pharmaceuticals used to get a good night’s sleep.

Instead of drowning them in prescription pharmaceuticals, if their doctors had instructed all these famous folks to ingest some marijuana, they would have all lived another day as well as gotten that longed for good night’s sleep.

Cannabis as an aid for sleep has been used safely and effectively for thousands of years. Seventy years ago before cannabis was declared an illegal substance, cannabis was found in almost every American medicine cabinet and one of its principal uses was as a sedative. When grandma was tossing and turning not able to fall asleep, she would get up, go to the medicine cabinet for a bottle of tincture of cannabis, place a few drops under her tongue, get back into bed, snuggle up next to grandpa and drift off to sleep.

By reducing some of problems associated with insomnia such as pain, depression, anxiety, stressand nausea, cannabis can help induce sleep. Even without any underlying problems, cannabis canhelp you get a good night’s sleep.

Although popular anti-insomnia medications like Ambien and Lunestra will get you to sleep, you quite often do not feel like you had a good night’s sleep when you wake up because these medications induce an artificial sleep. With cannabis you wake up feeling refreshed and rejuvenated because cannabis induces a natural night’s sleep.

How much cannabis to take for insomnia is a very individual matter. Due to the government’s opposition to allowing research to go forth that can would show positive benefits for cannabis, there is no research out there for determining how much to use other than anecdotal evidence. You will have to determine how much you need to use to obtain the therapeutic dose necessary to fall asleep. Unlike commercial drugs for insomnia that regularly kill celebrities and non-celebrities alike every year, no one has ever died from using cannabis, so determining the proper dose poses no significant health risks.

One thing you need to consider is how to ingest cannabis for insomnia. Although inhaling cannabis remains the most common method of ingestion, many patients find that ingesting cannabis as an edible to be the most effective delivery route for insomnia. Although it takes longer to achieve its effect when taken through the digestive system, the effects last longer.

The other thing to keep in mind when using cannabis for insomnia is which strain to use. Most people find Indica strains to be more relaxing with a pronounced sedative quality. Sativas tend tobe more of an energizer. For many people, it doesn’t seem to make much of a difference and thebottom line is generally any pot is better than no pot. If you are not getting at least 6 to 8 hours sleep a night because you can’t fall asleep, stay asleep or you’re waking up to early, then cannabis may very well give you the good night’s rest that hasbeen eluding you for far too long. You shouldn’t have to die trying to get to sleep
 

sac beh

Member
Well according to this it does but it's weak.Pg (2) I'm assuming it would also depend on the indivdual.

The terminology gets confusing in articles about CBD and cannabinoid receptor binding. Binding doesn't require action on the cell, so you have receptor agonists and antagonists. THC is widely known to be a cannabinoid receptor agonist with affinity for CB1 and CB2. So upon binding it causes a chemical reaction in the cell which changes it behavior. In probably 90% of the studies I've seen CBD has weak affinity for these receptors but in an antagonist role. So upon binding it doesn't produce a chemical change in the cell but rather serves to block agonist binding. Some studies mention the possibility that it plays an inverse agonist role too, which would mean upon binding it causes the opposite reaction of the agonist. Some articles explain this by saying that CBD has no CB-receptor affinity, which makes it confusing.

http://books.google.com/books?id=t7PdDg1nrOgC&pg=PA65&lpg=PA65#v=onepage&q=inverse&f=false
http://www.finola.com/CBDreview2008.pdf
http://www.unboundmedicine.com/medl...f_its_therapeutic_potential_in_CNS_disorders_
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17245363
 

DrWhurkle

New member
Personally I'm curious about the role that other cannabinoids like CBN and how when THC, CBD, and CBN react on humans and animals when all three are combined. I know that CBN isn't considered to be as big of a role, I think it's worth asking the question, "What happens when CBN and other natural cannabinoids (aka a pure form of all the cannabinoid constitutes), how that would affect the body? and "Would this cause more of the sedative qualities of the indica would become more prominent a role in sedative based synthetic/tinctures of cannabis??"

That's what I'm interested in. Seems like it's ALWAYS just THC and CBD, no other info, some offer the CBN levels but not many. Hopefully they continue studies like these to show the real effects of cannabis is a medicinal form.

-Dr. Whurkle-
 

headband 707

Plant whisperer
Veteran
The terminology gets confusing in articles about CBD and cannabinoid receptor binding. Binding doesn't require action on the cell, so you have receptor agonists and antagonists. THC is widely known to be a cannabinoid receptor agonist with affinity for CB1 and CB2. So upon binding it causes a chemical reaction in the cell which changes it behavior. In probably 90% of the studies I've seen CBD has weak affinity for these receptors but in an antagonist role. So upon binding it doesn't produce a chemical change in the cell but rather serves to block agonist binding. Some studies mention the possibility that it plays an inverse agonist role too, which would mean upon binding it causes the opposite reaction of the agonist. Some articles explain this by saying that CBD has no CB-receptor affinity, which makes it confusing.

http://books.google.com/books?id=t7PdDg1nrOgC&pg=PA65&lpg=PA65#v=onepage&q=inverse&f=false
http://www.finola.com/CBDreview2008.pdf
http://www.unboundmedicine.com/medl...f_its_therapeutic_potential_in_CNS_disorders_
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17245363


Again I would have to say it would depend on the individual and what meds he/she might be taking at the time. The chemical composition in humans are vast and no one has that key yet . I would also say it would depend on the cannabis as well.peace out Headband707:tiphat:
 

headband 707

Plant whisperer
Veteran
Thats because this is the long and short of it ..

Thats because this is the long and short of it ..

Personally I'm curious about the role that other cannabinoids like CBN and how when THC, CBD, and CBN react on humans and animals when all three are combined. I know that CBN isn't considered to be as big of a role, I think it's worth asking the question, "What happens when CBN and other natural cannabinoids (aka a pure form of all the cannabinoid constitutes), how that would affect the body? and "Would this cause more of the sedative qualities of the indica would become more prominent a role in sedative based synthetic/tinctures of cannabis??"

That's what I'm interested in. Seems like it's ALWAYS just THC and CBD, no other info, some offer the CBN levels but not many. Hopefully they continue studies like these to show the real effects of cannabis is a medicinal form.

-Dr. Whurkle-

CBN (Cannabinol) is produced as THC ages and breaks down, this process is known as oxidization. High levels of CBN tend to make the user feel messed up rather than high.
CBN levels can be kept to a minimum by storing cannabis products in a dark, cool, airtight environment. Marijuana should be dry prior to storage, and may have to be dried again after being stored somewhere that is humid. :)
 

DrWhurkle

New member
CBN (Cannabinol) is produced as THC ages and breaks down, this process is known as oxidization. High levels of CBN tend to make the user feel messed up rather than high.
CBN levels can be kept to a minimum by storing cannabis products in a dark, cool, airtight environment. Marijuana should be dry prior to storage, and may have to be dried again after being stored somewhere that is humid. :)

This is all very true, but see some people like those kind of effects depending on their conditions if using medicinally. I'm just saying things like CBN, THC-V, and other constitutes of the cannabis plant need to be added to these medical tests to see how the overall effect is when they are seeing literally what pure cannabis in a pill form SHOULD be like, as many things affect why users feel a certain way with certain strains.

Now on the other side of things, pushing them to amber up can also create higher levels of CBN and bring out other cannabinoids as well because when trichromes amber up it means that it's begun to degrade, Milky White trichromes on the other hand is the area where the truest effects from any given strain are found.

So when we are talking about all the different medicinal parts to the plant, it needs to be tested as if it were to be smoked, aka should contain the same things, because almost everyone does let them amber up some, and this is a good thing for that hard stoning effect. This is where I personally believe the sedation to come from more so than CBD, is things like CBN.

When looking at this as trying to figure out why it is that THC and higher CBD produces a more alert effect doesn't help us explain the sedative qualities, as they are obviously not completely reliant on either CBD or THC alone, but as a whole, ALL the cannabinoids make up what give it's qualities.

Personally I just believe they need to do testing like they do in Israel where real cannabis plant matter is used to make extracted tinctures, but they are actually pharmaceuticals. Although this is mainly done at 1 University there, they have been testing the different cannabinoids and there levels as a whole together, and separated.

If we are going to put it into a pill, it needs to mimic all the things that they are trying to isolate from the particular strain they are using IMO.

- Dr. Whurkle -
 

crazybear

Member
Thanks for the info headband 707!:thank you:

lots to digest, I'll have to re-read it when I'm high & not just groggy from being high!
Whatever it is in Indica's I know from personal experience Indica's are the ones to deal with pain!
Where is the list at with what strain does what! Please tell me looking for a strain for nerve pain! Peace & tokes to you headband 707!:plant grow:
 

sac beh

Member
Again I would have to say it would depend on the individual and what meds he/she might be taking at the time. The chemical composition in humans are vast and no one has that key yet . I would also say it would depend on the cannabis as well.

Sure cannabis affects people differently, depending on lots of factors, but the microbiological actions of the cannabinoids don't depend on them unless the person is taking a particular drug that also acts on the endocannabinoid system.

Please quote the part that says CBD (substance 4a in this article) binds to CB1. I have trouble finding that part. Thanks.

For some reason my browser won't open that link properly. But here are some other sources.

See the top of page 38, Interactions between CBD and THC (p. 64), and Structure-Activity Relationships and Concluding Discussion (pp. 65-66):
http://books.google.com/books?id=t7PdDg1nrOgC&pg=PA65&lpg=PA65#v=onepage&q&f=false

See CBD: a drug with multiple mechanisms of action (p. 276):
http://www.finola.com/CBDreview2008.pdf

"CBD displays unexpectedly high potency as an antagonist of CB1/CB2 receptor agonists in CB1- and CB2-expressing cells or tissues"
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17828291

"We found the neurogenic effect of CBD to be dependent on the CB1 receptor, which is expressed over the whole dentate gyrus."
http://www.biosignaling.com/content/8/1/12/abstract

"Like THC, CBD is present in high concentrations in cannabis; but CBD is not a CB1 receptor agonist. CBD concentration-dependently decreased GSK3? phosphorylation in CGNs in depolarizing media, thereby inhibiting activities; it had no effect in normal media. The effect of CBD to decrease GSK3? phosphorylation was reversed by PTX. CBD has been shown previously to act as an antagonist of the CB1 receptor through an allosteric mechanism and the similarity between the effects of CBD and the CB1 receptor antagonists suggest that CBD is acting as an antagonist in this effect. However, studies using CGNs from CB1 receptor null mice do not support this hypothesis."
http://gradworks.umi.com/33/74/3374855.html

Cannabidiol (CBD)'s biological activity: "Biological Activity
Non-psychotropic constituent of cannabis that is anticonvulsive, antihyperalgesic and neuroprotective in vivo. GPR55 and weak CB1 antagonist (IC50 values are 0.445 and 3.35 μM), CB2 receptor inverse agonist and inhibitor of anandamide uptake (IC50 = 27.5 μM). Also a weak agonist at VR1 vanilloid receptors (EC50 = 3.5 μM)."
http://www.tocris.com/dispprod.php?ItemId=46925

"The results from our experiments with membranes prepared from CB1-transfected and -untransfected CHO cells suggest that cannabidiol can inhibit [35S]GTPγS binding by interacting with the CB1 receptor as an inverse agonist at 10 μM."
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2189767/

This is to say that the research doesn't seem to support (yet) the view that CBD does not bind to the CB1 receptor, but rather that CBD is a CB1 antagonist. The difference between receptor agonists and antagonists is again the key here. Also, CBD has been shown (see my 2nd link) to also act on the body completely independent of the cannabinoid receptors, particularly through the inhibition of T cells and over-active immune responses.
 

crazybear

Member
Drwhurkle thats probably true! I don't think they need to put it in a pill form, there is Sativex patented in the UK. basically a tincture sprayed under the tongue !
I feel that our Government needs to pull their heads out their asses and finally admit that there is a medical use for marijuana & legalize the PLANT for our uses, wether it's medical for the mind, body or soul it's just plain medicine that is better for a person than all the shit in bottles! Unless it's bottles of fresh green herbs!:smoweed::plant grow:
 
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