Trying to pick the best COB. CXB5690 or CXM-22 or what?

Klompen · Sep 12, 2020

My new chamber I am building is basically going to be a set of four stalls that are sort of like lockers that each have their own lighting and are totally sealed from the others(so I can run photoperiod and autos separately among other things). Each chamber is going to be 18" wide and about 28" deep and about 6 feet tall. I want to put some high efficacy lights along the side and am currently leaning toward high efficacy tape light since I can't seem to find any quantum board products that meet my needs. I'm aiming for about 10-20W per side and then a powerful COB overhead.

That leads me to my current question: What COB is best? I know the CXB5690 from Cree is more or less the standard, but its been around quite a while now. The Luminus CXM-22 Gen 4 has comparable or superior efficiency and I see a lot of folks saying they're good. Right now I am using blurple Chinese "driverless" COB lights and while they performed way better than I ever expected, they also get hot like an inferno and are expensive and noisy to run as a result. If I have to, I'll use such a COB overhead, but I think it would be nice to have something more quality.

Budget is a huge issue so it all has to be DIY. I probably won't be able to buy them all at once, but I need to start getting these parts together and get my photoperiod plants flowering soon. I have Summer Breeze(Trifoliate), OJSDKB, Loud n' Proud, J1 Hashplant, Killer Orange, and Black Triangle waiting to go to 12/12 whenever I get this stuff figured out....

indagroove · Sep 13, 2020

At the risk of asking an obvious question, why COBs? Wouldn't it be better to use board type lighting to build a new rig? How much wattage are you looking at putting through each COB, and how many COBs per space?

Klompen · Sep 13, 2020

Thanks for the reply. There are a few reasons I am sure I want to go with COBs overhead and basically low wattage "quantum" style lighting surrounding them from the sides. I tend to prefer sativa-dominant strains and they tend to get tall. I'm also not in a legal state so maximizing my space while keeping my plant count down favors this layout. Running clones gives me as much time to veg each new set as I want; allowing them to get tall without slowing output down. I need that top light to be intense, but I need side lighting that can get really close to the plants and doesn't use an absurd amount of power.

The space of each "grow locker" is about 3.5sq ft(3 usable though really) with 6 feet of vertical clearance. So maybe one or two 50W COBs or a single 100W might do the trick? Top bin CXM-22 Gen4 and CXB5690 chips can be as efficient as lower binned lm301h chips, so I'm not sure its actually even worse all things considered.

I'm strongly considering getting some 24v 3000K white tape light and lining the walls with it. Some of the newest high-efficiency tape lights are getting to 150lm/w or more. I'll need to get some far red somehow though too. Not sure how I feel about adding UV in. I'm not against it, I just don't know enough about it yet.

indagroove · Sep 13, 2020

Klompen said:
Thanks for the reply. There are a few reasons I am sure I want to go with COBs overhead and basically low wattage "quantum" style lighting surrounding them from the sides. I tend to prefer sativa-dominant strains and they tend to get tall. I'm also not in a legal state so maximizing my space while keeping my plant count down favors this layout. Running clones gives me as much time to veg each new set as I want; allowing them to get tall without slowing output down. I need that top light to be intense, but I need side lighting that can get really close to the plants and doesn't use an absurd amount of power.

The space of each "grow locker" is about 3.5sq ft(3 usable though really) with 6 feet of vertical clearance. So maybe one or two 50W COBs or a single 100W might do the trick? Top bin CXM-22 Gen4 and CXB5690 chips can be as efficient as lower binned lm301h chips, so I'm not sure its actually even worse all things considered.

I'm strongly considering getting some 24v 3000K white tape light and lining the walls with it. Some of the newest high-efficiency tape lights are getting to 150lm/w or more. I'll need to get some far red somehow though too. Not sure how I feel about adding UV in. I'm not against it, I just don't know enough about it yet.

This QB will give you all the benefits you are looking for in a COB, plus the better spectrum and efficiency of a QB: https://horticulturelightinggroup.com/products/qb96-elite-v2-quantum-board-engine

You can run them anywhere between 50w and 200w, and there's the great penetration you want to the lowers.

Klompen · Sep 13, 2020

Nice, so that's basically just a COB without the diodes quite so close together. I mean, that's all a QB is in many ways, but this is a nice in-between. Would it have the penetration of a CXB3590?

I would have thought that the competition between the two was a no-brainer, but when I look at the PAR data for the CXB3590 I am surprised by how well it competes, but perhaps I am missing something.

Here's the data for the CXB3590:

https://chilledgrowlights.com/indep...b-test-report-cree-xlamp-cxb3590-3500k-cd-bin

and here is similar data for the QB96:

https://forum.grasscity.com/threads/qb96elite-v2-no-bs-information-only.1521830/

Seems like the CXB3590 rates around 2-2.5 umoles/joule depending on how hard you drive it, and the QB96 rates around 2.4 umoles/joule at half power(around 180W). Beyond that I don't know how they compare apples to apples. I'm not dissing the QB96, but I am honestly just trying to understand what makes it special and especially what justifies the significantly higher relative cost...

indagroove · Sep 13, 2020

Klompen said:
Nice, so that's basically just a COB without the diodes quite so close together. I mean, that's all a QB is in many ways, but this is a nice in-between. Would it have the penetration of a CXB3590?

I would have thought that the competition between the two was a no-brainer, but when I look at the PAR data for the CXB3590 I am surprised by how well it competes, but perhaps I am missing something.

Here's the data for the CXB3590:

https://chilledgrowlights.com/indep...b-test-report-cree-xlamp-cxb3590-3500k-cd-bin

and here is similar data for the QB96:

https://forum.grasscity.com/threads/qb96elite-v2-no-bs-information-only.1521830/

Seems like the CXB3590 rates around 2-2.5 umoles/joule depending on how hard you drive it, and the QB96 rates around 2.4 umoles/joule at half power(around 180W). Beyond that I don't know how they compare apples to apples. I'm not dissing the QB96, but I am honestly just trying to understand what makes it special and especially what justifies the significantly higher relative cost...

Well it's only $70 including heatsink for a QB that you can drive up to 200watts for one, and as you've just pointed out that it's around 15% more efficient. I find them to penetrate well, as each individual diode is powered around 3x as much as a typical 301h diode on a QB. Also I really hate the spread on most COBs, and these QB96's have a really nice spread. I think you'd need 4 COBs at 30watts each to match one QB96 at 100 watts, in terms of both spread and light output. I also really like how the 96's have both while full spectrum LEDs and also a mix of 630nm and 660nm red diodes for better flowering.

Klompen · Sep 13, 2020

Sounds good thanks. I'm not sure where the 15% more efficient comes from though; their PAR ratings seem practically the same to me but maybe I do not understand the data. I wonder how the drivers compare in price. I'm fairly sure they run at different voltages, but otherwise I'm not sure. Definitely interesting though either way, certainly considering it.

Klompen · Sep 13, 2020

After a TON of reading and digging around, I discovered that the QB96 almost certainly has either Samsung LH508B diodes or perhaps Bridgelux(HLG doesn't say). This would place the lm/watt at about 180 tops(less if the IR/far red is accounted for). So the top-bin CXB3590 and the CXM series from Luminus actually are more efficient at some wattages. Does this translate to better? I really think the QB96 is too much for each stall. If only they made a QB48! I could run them dimmed, but that's a lot of money for what is basically overkill for the space....

Check out the data sheet for the CXM HortiLum White line.... it looks pretty amazing actually

https://download.luminus.com/datash...White_Horticulture_COBs_Product_Datasheet.pdf

Has anyone here used Luminus chips?

In many ways it would be nice to have something similar to this for side lights(but without a 100 part minimum order lol)

https://www.alibaba.com/product-det...spm=a2700.galleryofferlist.0.0.302514fffB1Lb1

indagroove · Sep 13, 2020

Klompen said:
Sounds good thanks. I'm not sure where the 15% more efficient comes from though; their PAR ratings seem practically the same to me but maybe I do not understand the data. I wonder how the drivers compare in price. I'm fairly sure they run at different voltages, but otherwise I'm not sure. Definitely interesting though either way, certainly considering it.

Obviously efficiency is going to depend on how hard you run them, and if you are running them soft, both lamps are pretty close on efficiency. I assume you will run them harder for better penetration however, and at the higher ranger, you're looking at around 2.3 j/w for the 96's vs 2 j/w for the COBs. Also the 96's have a lot more red due to the individual 630 and 660 nm diodes, so a better spectrum for flowering.

Mars Hydro Led · Sep 14, 2020

For the chamber, check our smallest quantum board light TS600.

https://bit.ly/30DesD0

Koondense · Sep 14, 2020

Wrong thread sorry...

Klompen · Sep 14, 2020

I'm not entirely sure who you're talking to.... I don't think I specified a color temperature or CRI...

Koondense · Sep 14, 2020

Sorry Klompen, i posted in the wrong thread, was intended to be in the "best technology bla bla" thread. I will delete or edit my message.

Cheers

Klompen · Sep 14, 2020

With as stoned as a lot of folks are around here, it's amazing that doesn't happen more often

unregistered190 · Sep 14, 2020

Mars Hydro Led said:
For the chamber, check our smallest quantum board light TS600.

klompen, if you happen go with mars consider buying a backup light in case you have issues. their lights perform decent but if you do have a failure under warranty .....forget customer service sending you another one.

ask me how I know

Klompen · Sep 15, 2020

The stats certainly look fine and some grows I have seen with them have turned out ok, but how they compare in durability and other regards is beyond my knowledge.The good mid-power diodes are good, but I'm still undecided. I don't think Mars makes a light that is small enough for my purposes, and I don't think HLG does either. Each chamber is only about 3 square feet and 6 feet tall; that's too much height and not enough floor space for many of these lights. I could possibly under-drive them, but that's going to cost me intensity. The QB96 is a nice light, but I will have a lot of figuring to do. The Gen4 CXM-22 HortiLum White is impressive, and might pair well with a good lens that would let it really hit the depths it needs. At 50W it rates at 2.4-2.5 µmoles/joule, and its not too much for my space. I think maybe 2 of them overhead could be really nice. Then again, I haven't made a decision for sure.

I also saw this light. They have a few options that look pretty interesting. They're a bit pricey, but they do have an integrated MeanWell driver, top-bin 301h diodes(supposedly), and is ready to just get plugged in. Their ballast and heatsink setup is slick and honestly I would love to get my hands on it even if I use a different chip on it.

https://opticledgrowlights.com/products/phatslim-one

indagroove · Sep 16, 2020

Klompen said:
The stats certainly look fine and some grows I have seen with them have turned out ok, but how they compare in durability and other regards is beyond my knowledge.The good mid-power diodes are good, but I'm still undecided. I don't think Mars makes a light that is small enough for my purposes, and I don't think HLG does either. Each chamber is only about 3 square feet and 6 feet tall; that's too much height and not enough floor space for many of these lights. I could possibly under-drive them, but that's going to cost me intensity. The QB96 is a nice light, but I will have a lot of figuring to do. The Gen4 CXM-22 HortiLum White is impressive, and might pair well with a good lens that would let it really hit the depths it needs. At 50W it rates at 2.4-2.5 µmoles/joule, and its not too much for my space. I think maybe 2 of them overhead could be really nice. Then again, I haven't made a decision for sure.

I also saw this light. They have a few options that look pretty interesting. They're a bit pricey, but they do have an integrated MeanWell driver, top-bin 301h diodes(supposedly), and is ready to just get plugged in. Their ballast and heatsink setup is slick and honestly I would love to get my hands on it even if I use a different chip on it.

https://opticledgrowlights.com/products/phatslim-one

Looks very overpriced to me. $129 for a 54watt light? For the same price you could put together a 120w HLG QB96 including driver.

Klompen · Sep 16, 2020

indagroove said:
Looks very overpriced to me. $129 for a 54watt light? For the same price you could put together a 120w HLG QB96 including driver.

Its overpriced from them for sure, but they just buy it off Alibaba for half that or less. They basically just took a heatsink for COBs and put a Mean Well high bay driver on top of it. I can source the parts for under 50. They claim top bin diodes, but so do a lot of folks. When I see the same boards on Aliexpress for 10 bucks, they say that they have LM301b diodes. They look identical except for the logo.

indagroove · Sep 16, 2020

Klompen said:
Its overpriced from them for sure, but they just buy it off Alibaba for half that or less. They basically just took a heatsink for COBs and put a Mean Well high bay driver on top of it. I can source the parts for under 50. They claim top bin diodes, but so do a lot of folks. When I see the same boards on Aliexpress for 10 bucks, they say that they have LM301b diodes. They look identical except for the logo.

Yeah, and to that same point, just because you're getting LM301b diodes from Alibaba (which is honestly still questionable because they could be knockoff diodes), you're most likely getting low bin diodes which produce 15% less photons than LM301h or top bin LM301b diodes. Maybe I'm biased, but I prefer to spend a little more and buy from a reputable manufacturer/dealer, who stands behind their product instead of an overseas mystery company who stands in the shadows.

As an example, I recently bought my kid a new stand-up/sit-down desk with motorized legs to raise or lower it. I could have saved a couple hundred bucks and bought from a cheap chinese company, but instead I spent $600 on a MojoDesk. When it arrived and I assembled it one of the leg motors wasn't working quite right. I called them in their office in Colorado, but no one answered so I left a message with my issue and my order number. Within a couple of hours I received an email telling me that they were shipping the new motor out asap, and I got tracking notification the next day. I was so glad I spent the extra money. 5-year US based warranty baby.

Klompen · Sep 16, 2020

Yeah quality products are definitely worth it when service is counted in, but of course that's when one can afford it of course. The QB96 looks great, but it just seems really overkill for a space only 18" wide... Then again maybe not. I suppose I could potentially do a light that is basically like that last link but with the QB96 instead. I would just need to get one of those MeanWell highbay ballasts and bolt it right on top of the heat sink like those generic ones have. The HBG-200 series has some pretty nice options that I think should have as much power as the QB96 or whatever I use is going to need.

Comparing LED products is a bit headache inducing.

Trying to pick the best COB. CXB5690 or CXM-22 or what?

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