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Closed Loop Woes

C

Calwax

Member
Hey Folks Im a new CLS user.

so to clear any questions .
extraction chain goes
Nitrogen assist/
30 lb Solvent tank/
6x24in non jacketed column/
10 inch Collection/
microseive/
pump/
condenser/
solvent tank
trs active recovery

Now my column isnt freezing up like i see on a lot of videos and stuff.
Am i doing something wrong.

I've read everything online and it seems i'm doing most everything right .

but i just dont know why my column isnt freezing up.
 
I

Ions71

New member
Calwax said:
Hey Folks Im a new CLS user.

so to clear any questions .
extraction chain goes
Nitrogen assist/
30 lb Solvent tank/
6x24in non jacketed column/
10 inch Collection/
microseive/
pump/
condenser/
solvent tank
trs active recovery

Now my column isnt freezing up like i see on a lot of videos and stuff.
Am i doing something wrong.

I've read everything online and it seems i'm doing most everything right .

but i just dont know why my column isnt freezing up.
Click to expand...

What are you freezing or chilling your column with? Sounds like it is non-jacketed so not sure why it would be frozen.
 
C

Calwax

Member
it IS a NON JACKETED column you are correct.

im not using anything to freeze the column

. the items that get heating/cooling in my system are

solvent tank on ice and rock salt,

jacketed collection pot that recirculates warm/hot water,

dry ice for the coil condenser out of the rec pump

. and then ill throw a heating pad around the column near the end of recovery to recover gas.

So you are saying it only ices up when you chill a jacketed column or butane?
 
I

Ions71

New member
Yes, what you are seeing when a column ices up is the moisture in the air freezing to the column as the column is often sleeved/jacketed with either liquid CO2 or dry ice/alcohol mix.
 
C

Calwax

Member
i have a problem where i feel like i am not getting the proper saturation because the last few burps of the column come out very gold into the collection so I am always left thinking, did i leave something on the table.

i run 6 to 1 ratio.

do I need to let it soak longer?
 
Gray Wolf

Gray Wolf

A Posse ad Esse. From Possibility to realization.
Mentor
ICMag Donor
Veteran
Your column is freezing because you are boiling off the LPG inside under vacuum, so as to remove the heat of vaporization.
 
SkyHighLer

SkyHighLer

Got me a stone bad Mana
ICMag Donor
Veteran
Calwax said:
i have a problem where i feel like i am not getting the proper saturation because the last few burps of the column come out very gold into the collection so I am always left thinking, did i leave something on the table.

i run 6 to 1 ratio.

do I need to let it soak longer?
Click to expand...

I guess Gray Wolf missed you're running a 6" x 24" material column, because he usually makes the suggestion to limit the diameter to 4" to get the material uniformly soaked.

Are you showering, flooding, or both? How many showers and/or floods?
 
C

Calwax

Member
the problem is the my column is not freezing just getting a little cold to the touch the gets warm.

do i need to be chilling the butane going IN with a condenser.

my tech is. not to be too complicated
vacdown
chill tank with ice and salt
flood column till it wont take any more pressure at the ball valve
dump column to collectoin pot
turn on recovery
close feed
add hot water to collection
dry ice to condenser
heat to the column
recover forever


then pretty much where im lost
 
Gray Wolf

Gray Wolf

A Posse ad Esse. From Possibility to realization.
Mentor
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Calwax said:
i feel like sometimes when i try to use n2 gas to push the column that it kinda locks up the flow
Click to expand...


Skyhighler is right that I answered your first question and didn't notice the second.

A six inch column is OK if you have enough flow and a shower head, but you most likely don't. Your flow will find the easiest way through, which is down he middle of the column. without fully wetting the outer edges of the column.

You can get full wetting with a bottom flood and a small supply, but not from the top and the fluid velocity washing away the boundary layer will be low.

You mention using a N2 push. Are you fully burping it off before recovery?

If not, recovery will be be slow because N2 is not condensable, only compressable, so your pump pulses are pushing against a spring action.

How long does it take to recover the LPG?
 
C

Calwax

Member
i do have a shower end up on my top flood,

i do not have a bottom flood

I always feel like after i fill the system

dump the valve and start recovering that butane in the column just sits there and warms up and drips endlessly.

recovery of about 15 lb of solvent takes like 45 minutes.

i give one or two n2 pushes when recoverys closed then vent that out from the top of the column.

and thats usually when it just starts dripping slowly for forever.

when i restart the recovery
 
Gray Wolf

Gray Wolf

A Posse ad Esse. From Possibility to realization.
Mentor
ICMag Donor
Veteran
Calwax said:
i do have a shower end up on my top flood,

i do not have a bottom flood

I always feel like after i fill the system

dump the valve and start recovering that butane in the column just sits there and warms up and drips endlessly.

recovery of about 15 lb of solvent takes like 45 minutes.

i give one or two n2 pushes when recoverys closed then vent that out from the top of the column.

and thats usually when it just starts dripping slowly for forever.

when i restart the recovery
Click to expand...

Even with a shower head, you need enough flow and volume to deal with a 6" X 24" column, which contains about 1629 cubic inches of material, so for a 3X flood, requires about 35lbs of LPG, as opposed to the 15lbs you are using.

What is your LPG supply line size? A 4" column is a push with a 1/2" supply.

If you don't have bidirectional flooding, I suggest you add it if efficiency is an issue. You physically cannot get the same degree of uniform wetting using just a top flood, unless you have more flow than will pass through the bottom dump valve, or it is closed, so as to fully fill the column from the top.

In that scenario, you also need a vapor vent to allow them to escape and not block the liquid.

It isn't necessary to use an N2 push on a properly designed system, and unless you remove it all, it seriously slows down recovery.

Here is how we successfully operated the WolfWurx Terpenators.

https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=297578&highlight=generic+terpenator
 
C

Calwax

Member
1/4 inch lines all the way around probably contributing to the slow recovery.

I feel like the column doesnt freeze up unless i continue to toggle negative pressure from

the recovery port. then, it slowly starts to freeze up.

im gonna get a bottom flood reducer so i can insure the saturation.
 
Gray Wolf

Gray Wolf

A Posse ad Esse. From Possibility to realization.
Mentor
ICMag Donor
Veteran
Calwax said:
1/4 inch lines all the way around probably contributing to the slow recovery.

I feel like the column doesnt freeze up unless i continue to toggle negative pressure from

the recovery port. then, it slowly starts to freeze up.

im gonna get a bottom flood reducer so i can insure the saturation.
Click to expand...


To freeze the column, the LPG must be boiling in the column under vacuum.

What do you mean by toggling negative pressure from the recovery port??
 
C

Calwax

Member
If it's dripping very slowly then I shut the recovery

Port on the collection pot to build a negative pressure in the line then reopen recovery
And watch as it pull more lpg thru the column .
If I don't do that I feel like I leave a whole lot in the column
 
Gray Wolf

Gray Wolf

A Posse ad Esse. From Possibility to realization.
Mentor
ICMag Donor
Veteran
Calwax said:
If it's dripping very slowly then I shut the recovery

Port on the collection pot to build a negative pressure in the line then reopen recovery
And watch as it pull more lpg thru the column .
If I don't do that I feel like I leave a whole lot in the column
Click to expand...


Do you have a vent line from the top of your column, to the top of the recovery tank?
 
C

Calwax

Member
The only line to the top of the column is my liquid line from the butane storage vessel .

Untill the end of the run when I iso column for recovery . I'll disconnect the recovery line from the collection pot and switch it to the top of the column while I harvest the resins I allow the recovery to get anything left over in the column
 
Gray Wolf

Gray Wolf

A Posse ad Esse. From Possibility to realization.
Mentor
ICMag Donor
Veteran
Calwax said:
The only line to the top of the column is my liquid line from the butane storage vessel .

Untill the end of the run when I iso column for recovery . I'll disconnect the recovery line from the collection pot and switch it to the top of the column while I harvest the resins I allow the recovery to get anything left over in the column
Click to expand...


Without a vent line, there is no way for the vapor to escape and allow the the liquid to replace it using gravity. Consider adding one.
 
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