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Magnesium Ascorbyl Phosphate ?

Hey Y'all, Came across Magnesium Ascorbyl Phosphate does anyone use this or heard of it being use?

What other forms of Magnesium do y'all use? I'm hydro, no medium.
 

Only Ornamental

Spiritually inspired agnostic mad scientist
Veteran
It's mostly used as cosmetic ingredient in the form of decahydrate which contains 9.6% Mg and ~8% P.
What do you mean by "more readily soluble"? More than what? Magnesium salts are usually quite well soluble in water (if you neglect precipitation with anions such as phosphate or carbonate).
Depending on what you do and how, using ascorbyl phosphate is wasted money due to spontaneous hydrolysis.
 
Im also looking into alternative Ca and Mg Sources. Only Ornamental with your Knowledge could you shed some Light on why Ca EDTA is not a good Source even though its widely used by Companys like Yara.
 

Only Ornamental

Spiritually inspired agnostic mad scientist
Veteran
Due large volumes produced for many kinds of applications, EDTA is fairly cheap but it's mineral oil base and nearly non-biodegradable. Not only does it accumulate in soil and sediments but also in plants because a part of EDTA chelates is assimilated as a whole and doesn't liberate the metal ion. Hence, too much EDTA has been shown to decrease yield. Furthermore does it exhibit a very tight binding to iron and can cause micronutrient lockout. It's binding affinity is likely higher than optimal for calcium chelation and it's fame in agriculture came from a time where stronger metal binding was believed to be better... As we know today, too good a chelate can even cause nutrient deficiencies (a strategy used by microbes which secrete siderophores) or lead to leaching (done on purpose with certain "flushing" products). Somewhere between EDTA and citric acid (which is too weak and unstable to be considered a good calcium chelate) lays Dissolvine (aka GLDA) which is eco-friendly, derived from renewable resources, and fairly biodegradable. At the moment, GLDA is arguably the best option of all cost-effective chelates although we don't know what happens within plants. I haven't even come across any study which investigated plant assimilation of GLDA... stating that GLDA is the answer and all gold and shiny might be a hasty conclusion because right now we're playing guinea pigs with millions of people eating (and sometimes smoking LoL) produce from GLDA treated crops.
 
Thank your for the detailed Answer. I must admit im slightly confused though, when i google Dissolvine, EDTA Ca Chelate from Yara comes up, havent found a Ca Chelate using GLDA yet.
Nearly all non Iron Micronutrients in Fertilizers are chelated using EDTA, it seems impossible to avoid it when using Salt Fertilizer. Obviously the Amount is quite low when it comes to Micronutrients.
 

Absolem

Active member
Thank your for the detailed Answer. I must admit im slightly confused though, when i google Dissolvine, EDTA Ca Chelate from Yara comes up, havent found a Ca Chelate using GLDA yet.
Nearly all non Iron Micronutrients in Fertilizers are chelated using EDTA, it seems impossible to avoid it when using Salt Fertilizer. Obviously the Amount is quite low when it comes to Micronutrients.


Dissolvine micronutrients=AkzoNobel

https://micronutrients.akzonobel.com/brands/dissolvine/
 

Avenger

Well-known member
Veteran
Dissolvine GL is the brand name for the GLDA chelating agent. they do not offer any GLDA metal chelates currently, AFAIK.
 

Only Ornamental

Spiritually inspired agnostic mad scientist
Veteran
Dissolvine GL (@Avenger: right, forgot the GL! Thanks for the proper brand name) is mainly used in the form of tetrasodium salt as anti-scaling agent in industrial applications and laundry detergents. For obvious reasons, it would be utter nonsense to use the calcium salt...
Agriculture often opts for cheap raw materials and seldom invents something new but employs what's already there. For the reason mentioned above, calcium GLDA has no value elsewhere and that's why it's only produced for special applications and isn't used big scale in horticulture.
@ADHD: You're correct, the amount of chelated micronutrients applied/used is so low and hence, EDTA is kept at minute quantities. In addition, a strong chelate is needed to protect micronutrients from precipitating and therefore EDTA and alike are, at least from an economical and practical point of view, still the best way to go.
 
It's mostly used as cosmetic ingredient in the form of decahydrate which contains 9.6% Mg and ~8% P.
What do you mean by "more readily soluble"? More than what? Magnesium salts are usually quite well soluble in water (if you neglect precipitation with anions such as phosphate or carbonate).
Depending on what you do and how, using ascorbyl phosphate is wasted money due to spontaneous hydrolysis.

Your science is so full! Thanks for sharing, I really appreciate your knowlege.

Main thing: there's always powder on the bottom o' my reaservoir! It's precipitating out? That means I got too much? I just want them to eat their calcium and magnesium!
 

Only Ornamental

Spiritually inspired agnostic mad scientist
Veteran
Likely so but that doesn't mean you add too much fertiliser, though. See, if you take two well water soluble salts, say AB and CD, and mix them, if the salt AD or CB has a low solubility, that one will fall out and that's the reason why many liquid nutrients come in two or three different bottles. The main salts precipitating from fertilisers are calcium sulfate (gypsum) and different phosphate salts (such as calcium and magnesium phosphate). One could calculate all that but it needs some time and effort and isn't easy if you want precise numbers because solubility is pH and temperature dependent but a rough estimation should be useful enough ;) .
Using chelated calcium can solve the issue but most chelates just switch the calcium with trace elements and you risk to lock these out. On the other hand, there's no feasible magnesium chelate although solubility of magnesium salts at a slightly acidic pH such as present in hydro remains well enough to not pose any issues. A different approach is to "remove" phosphate from the equation as done by using for example polyphosphates. These also complex metals alongside other drawbacks but reduce the tendency to form irreversible deposits. Another strategy, commonly not applicable due high costs, is the use of salts from organically bound phosphate such as your ascorbyl phosphate. If you have no concerns with the added organic material, you could give it a try: let me know how well it works, will you?
Sulphate could be applied in a similar way but sulfate esters (FYI ascorbyl phosphate is a phosphate ester) aren't readily available and/or are either too stable or too reactive (the most frequently used ones at fair costs are either laundry detergents or highly toxic and mutagenic and modify DNA!). If other forms of organic sulfur could be used without causing issues and would be worth the extra costs, I do not know but love to see the results from someone who actually tried it ;) .
 
Likely so but that doesn't mean you add too much fertiliser, though. See, if you take two well water soluble salts, say AB and CD, and mix them, if the salt AD or CB has a low solubility, that one will fall out and that's the reason why many liquid nutrients come in two or three different bottles. The main salts precipitating from fertilisers are calcium sulfate (gypsum) and different phosphate salts (such as calcium and magnesium phosphate). One could calculate all that but it needs some time and effort and isn't easy if you want precise numbers because solubility is pH and temperature dependent but a rough estimation should be useful enough ;) .
Using chelated calcium can solve the issue but most chelates just switch the calcium with trace elements and you risk to lock these out. On the other hand, there's no feasible magnesium chelate although solubility of magnesium salts at a slightly acidic pH such as present in hydro remains well enough to not pose any issues. A different approach is to "remove" phosphate from the equation as done by using for example polyphosphates. These also complex metals alongside other drawbacks but reduce the tendency to form irreversible deposits. Another strategy, commonly not applicable due high costs, is the use of salts from organically bound phosphate such as your ascorbyl phosphate. If you have no concerns with the added organic material, you could give it a try: let me know how well it works, will you?
Sulphate could be applied in a similar way but sulfate esters (FYI ascorbyl phosphate is a phosphate ester) aren't readily available and/or are either too stable or too reactive (the most frequently used ones at fair costs are either laundry detergents or highly toxic and mutagenic and modify DNA!). If other forms of organic sulfur could be used without causing issues and would be worth the extra costs, I do not know but love to see the results from someone who actually tried it ;) .

I'm no chemist but I do appreciate the info!
So what's the best balance to use for forms of calcium and magnesium?
 
You're welcome.
What do you mean by "balance for forms of Ca and Mg"? Please specify.

Lately i've been using Magnesium Sulfate and Calcium Hydroxide bc they're fairly soluble.

I'm also going to try Calcium Nitrate during the veg.

I'm trying to figure out how I can make a custom nutrient blend. Any tips?

This is a good calculation page I came across so far.
https://e-gro.org/pdf/E305.pdf

It's just hard to find advice on specific amounts of each macro and micro nutrient for cannabis so I'm thinking about starting a new post on it.
 

Only Ornamental

Spiritually inspired agnostic mad scientist
Veteran
There's already more than one post on IC ;) . YoseminteSam posted a nice basic formula (the micros are rather standard, not much available specifically for cannabis) with others proposing some tweaks to it. Else, take an existing one such as JR Peters Jack's Pro & CalNit and reverse engineer it for example by using Hydro Buddy.
Calcium hydroxide? Rather alkaline and hence not a good combination with micros unless you're using the right pH down. Calcium nitrate would be a better alternative.
Forgot where I posted a proposition or rather a concentration range for micros based on publications on hemp and cannabis... was it in "The Lounge" or "Organic vs Inorganic"? Fortunately, most plants are very similar regarding micros and cannabis tolerates fairly high amounts i.e. adding a tick too much should put you on the safe side.
Sorry, gotta go, by :)
 

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