Been reading about breeding and I'm about to understand the mysteries behind F1, F2, F3 etc.....But then I see that a F1 will be dominated by the dominant genes and we will just not see any succsessful crosses until next crossing, the F2. So then my question will be: Have you ever experienced a "bad" F1 who gave a much more improved F2? If so what was the bad traits of the F1 and the good ones in the F2?
Hidden gems in F1?
- Thread starter Superauto
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Awwww too bad. So to become a good girl you need good parents too
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Dominant genes will determine the phenotype in all crosses by definition.
F1 crosses can be very successful, although it is likely there will be a number of phenotypes. Many individual plants will display strong hybrid vigour. A "bad" F1 has been dealt an inferior combination of genes from the parents and is unlikely to produce fantastic offspring with further breeding.
Cheers
not likely.
flowering time is very likely a quantitive trait, so it's not determined by just 1 gene.
so if there's a recessive fast flowering gene present in heterozygous form(so hidden by the dominant long flowering version), that gene may just contribute such a small portion, for example it would translate into finishing 1 day earlier.
so if it's there, you won't really notice it unless you grow out a larger number of plants and do some data analysis with statistics.
with selection you could get faster flowering if you can get multiple of those small genes accumulated together, but it would take some work(and more difficult as hobby breeder, since environmental effects easily hide the effect of such a gene, that's why optimally you would use statistical methods to analyse if the difference is significant, do an experiment to quantify the environmental/ non-genetic variation, and then do selection based on that on a large number of plants)
flowering time is very likely a quantitive trait, so it's not determined by just 1 gene.
so if there's a recessive fast flowering gene present in heterozygous form(so hidden by the dominant long flowering version), that gene may just contribute such a small portion, for example it would translate into finishing 1 day earlier.
so if it's there, you won't really notice it unless you grow out a larger number of plants and do some data analysis with statistics.
with selection you could get faster flowering if you can get multiple of those small genes accumulated together, but it would take some work(and more difficult as hobby breeder, since environmental effects easily hide the effect of such a gene, that's why optimally you would use statistical methods to analyse if the difference is significant, do an experiment to quantify the environmental/ non-genetic variation, and then do selection based on that on a large number of plants)
I see, I just ask because I want to know if I should spend time on crossing F1's to get to see if there is more to get from a F2 or if I should just continue to cross the best of the best in a never ending quest for the fast flowering mold resistant strain
Seems like I just go for the never ending crossing game
if you're limited in numbers, yeah, I would go for the never ending crosses. the progeny will probably be close to the average in flowering between the 2 parents.
the thing though with selecting only the best is that you'll likely lose a lot of those small, positive genes.
so to get the best results, you shouldn't kill plants too fast, but you would need to grow large numbers too, so just doing more crosses probably gets you your desired results faster and easier.
but just to make my point about not killing too much, let's say you have 10 genes, all of them have 1 version that takes 1 day off the finishing time.
then you're doing selections, and one plant stands out as flowering earlier than all the others. so you select only thias plant to create the next generation.
but, it might be that if you had been able to see the genetics, this plant actually only had 8/10 positive genes. and the other 2 you lost forever because you killed all other plants. while if you kept them, you would have had a new chance the next generation for one plant to pop up that had them all. you only kill the few worst, so you slowly get a better ratio for the positive alleles in your population.
but going for what's achievable in a decent time on a small scale, 8/10 is still better as 5/10, so you can still get results by only selecting the best. you just won't be able to get the very best(or you have to be very lucky that the 10/10 plant shows up right away).
btw, I'm doing something similar myself. grew 2 different F2's this year, and they're both still on the late side, especially one of them is too late on average(harvested 1 that was a lot earlier as the others, the rest is still not ripe).
I had hoped to begin stabilisation this year, but now, with this information about when they finish, I changed my plans. my plan is now to continue crossing to earlier strains/plants untill I get the average finishing time down enough, then begin stabilising and focussing on selections, also on things besides finish time and mold resistance.
the thing though with selecting only the best is that you'll likely lose a lot of those small, positive genes.
so to get the best results, you shouldn't kill plants too fast, but you would need to grow large numbers too, so just doing more crosses probably gets you your desired results faster and easier.
but just to make my point about not killing too much, let's say you have 10 genes, all of them have 1 version that takes 1 day off the finishing time.
then you're doing selections, and one plant stands out as flowering earlier than all the others. so you select only thias plant to create the next generation.
but, it might be that if you had been able to see the genetics, this plant actually only had 8/10 positive genes. and the other 2 you lost forever because you killed all other plants. while if you kept them, you would have had a new chance the next generation for one plant to pop up that had them all. you only kill the few worst, so you slowly get a better ratio for the positive alleles in your population.
but going for what's achievable in a decent time on a small scale, 8/10 is still better as 5/10, so you can still get results by only selecting the best. you just won't be able to get the very best(or you have to be very lucky that the 10/10 plant shows up right away).
btw, I'm doing something similar myself. grew 2 different F2's this year, and they're both still on the late side, especially one of them is too late on average(harvested 1 that was a lot earlier as the others, the rest is still not ripe).
I had hoped to begin stabilisation this year, but now, with this information about when they finish, I changed my plans. my plan is now to continue crossing to earlier strains/plants untill I get the average finishing time down enough, then begin stabilising and focussing on selections, also on things besides finish time and mold resistance.
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It depends on why the F1 is ‘bad’. Breeders are constantly ‘cracking’ F1s to find better plants!
In fact, in classical plant breeding, one of the key ways to develop ‘extreme’ expressions of traits is to run F2s and beyond. For example, cross an early parent line with a late parent line, and you’ll likely get an intermediate F1. In the F2, you expect to recover early and late plants, but also typically see new, very early and very late expressions. These could be the gems you seek!
If the F1 sucks in every way, though, it would be weird to predict its offspring would be better. Oddly, it’s definitely not impossible. Just highly improbable!
In fact, in classical plant breeding, one of the key ways to develop ‘extreme’ expressions of traits is to run F2s and beyond. For example, cross an early parent line with a late parent line, and you’ll likely get an intermediate F1. In the F2, you expect to recover early and late plants, but also typically see new, very early and very late expressions. These could be the gems you seek!
If the F1 sucks in every way, though, it would be weird to predict its offspring would be better. Oddly, it’s definitely not impossible. Just highly improbable!
I see, I just ask because I want to know if I should spend time on crossing F1's to get to see if there is more to get from a F2 or if I should just continue to cross the best of the best in a never ending quest for the fast flowering mold resistant strain
Seems like I just go for the never ending crossing game
You should always make F2s to choose from! F2 & F3 generations are the absolute most variable gens & the best for seeing the myraid traits within a given line!
F2 is the gen where the genes get shuffled the most so the more seed you plant the more variation you should see. You will see the best & the worst plants with a large enough planting.
F2 or F3 is the best generations used for eliminating undesirable charachteristics from the gene pool, imo.
An auto flowerer isn't an f1.
More likely f3 or f4.(on the way to being an ibl which would be stable and uniform for selected traits)
An f1 is a mix of completely different parents like indica x sativa.
If your crossing auto x auto I beleive the correct terminology would be a polyhybrid.
Of course you can f2 a poly hybrid but your not starting with f1's so you'll have a large range of genetic combinations showing even back to the grandparents.
I recommend you create 2 lines,indica dom to f3/f4 and sativa dom to f3/f4.
Crossing these will give you f1's which will be stable and relatively uniform and which would be your own strain.
More likely f3 or f4.(on the way to being an ibl which would be stable and uniform for selected traits)
An f1 is a mix of completely different parents like indica x sativa.
If your crossing auto x auto I beleive the correct terminology would be a polyhybrid.
Of course you can f2 a poly hybrid but your not starting with f1's so you'll have a large range of genetic combinations showing even back to the grandparents.
I recommend you create 2 lines,indica dom to f3/f4 and sativa dom to f3/f4.
Crossing these will give you f1's which will be stable and relatively uniform and which would be your own strain.
Maybe, maybe not. There is no reason an auto might not be an F1. Most are probably polyhybrids, but that also doesn’t mean they are F2s or on the way to IBLs. It actually means they are likely to be very unpredictable in subsequent generations, where IBLs are predictable.
But, given all of the uncertainty, you are right that the best course is to make your own IBLs and F1s!
More options! Sure it sounds like a good idea, but this have to be done after I have enough seeds and enough cannabis to consume so I can focus on this breeding part. But one thing is for sure, I'm gotta have my own corner in the freezer, there will be alot of seeds to take care of!
a good F1 from stable parental stock should come out quite uniform, and sometimes the traits displayed by the F1s are not necessarily the combination of the parents that you were looking for... in this case the F2 generation is much more likely to give you the variation to find the traits you want. so the F1s arent 'bad' as such, but they may seem a bit 'samey' and 'dull' in their uniformity.. although in many other cases it is exactly that uniformity that breeders are looking for!
e.g. when i grew out my BlueDigiBerry F1s (its a blueberry x digiberry cross i made when Dank.Frank kindly sent me some digibery pollen) the plants all came out very similar and nearly all smelt of blueberry muffins, which was similar to the digiberry side of the cross. I was slightly disappointed that more of the sweet candy berry of my blueberry mother didnt show through.
I made the F2 generation, grew some out, and found that many of the plants exhibited the traits i was missing from the F1 generation (the sweet candy berry phenos), and the variation was predictably much greater than the F1s
so for those people looking to get a good varied selection of blueberry traits the F2s were great.
'the gold is in the F2s' can be very true, it depends on what you are looking for, but for finding those plants with your desired combinations of traits, F2s are well worth trying.
VG
e.g. when i grew out my BlueDigiBerry F1s (its a blueberry x digiberry cross i made when Dank.Frank kindly sent me some digibery pollen) the plants all came out very similar and nearly all smelt of blueberry muffins, which was similar to the digiberry side of the cross. I was slightly disappointed that more of the sweet candy berry of my blueberry mother didnt show through.
I made the F2 generation, grew some out, and found that many of the plants exhibited the traits i was missing from the F1 generation (the sweet candy berry phenos), and the variation was predictably much greater than the F1s
so for those people looking to get a good varied selection of blueberry traits the F2s were great.
'the gold is in the F2s' can be very true, it depends on what you are looking for, but for finding those plants with your desired combinations of traits, F2s are well worth trying.
VG
