Good defoliation side by side examples

Always a lot of debate on this topic. I do enjoy watching the video's from these growers.
They are firm believers in defoliation.

https://vimeo.com/265205156

Absolem said:

Always a lot of debate on this topic. I do enjoy watching the video's from these growers.
They are firm believers in defoliation.

https://vimeo.com/265205156

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I've always been impressed by their videos, but obviously skeptical since they are selling the $500 book. I never noticed that they aren't doing SOG though, it's actually big trees, 8 per 4x8 tray in huge pots. Anyone know how long their grow is supposed to be for those yields?

FatManatee at ***farmer.com (I've omitted some of the info as I don't think we are supposed to link to other forums) has finished his side by side and the results are the control group (no defoliation) winning.

https://www.***farmer.com/community/threads/defoliation-side-by-side-bushy-plants.101534/page-10

And the winner is.... Control group! (no defoliation)

Control group:
Plant 1: 142.5g
Plant 2: 148.0g
Plant 3: 133.0g
Total: 423.5g

Defoliation group:
Plant A: 137.5g
Plant B: 116.5g
Plant C: 130.0g
Total: 384.5g

Total yield 808 grams, 1.56g/w (average power draw during flowering)

Control group also had bigger flowers, less larfy shit, so it was easier to trim and has a better bag appeal.

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Growweedeasy.com has a good article on that called "Schwazzing" you can get the book now for $300.00 still way, way too high !!! Note: if one takes all fan leaves of 4 days before harvest this will increase terpene's and essential oils + helps the plant dry out Like to do a "heavy" defoliation in week 4 of flower

Like to do a "heavy" defoliation in week 4 of veg and then in week 4 of flower + 4days before harvest I remove all fan leaves to increase terpenes' and essential oils Some defoliate a week before transition/per-flower stage in removing fan's gives better light to the developing bud sites !!!!!!!!!!!

Biologist said:

I've always been impressed by their videos, but obviously skeptical since they are selling the $500 book. I never noticed that they aren't doing SOG though, it's actually big trees, 8 per 4x8 tray in huge pots. Anyone know how long their grow is supposed to be for those yields?

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It works with some genetics and not others. The author left this out or simply didn't understand this along with a whole bunch of other important info - nice picture book though with typos in what little text there is. I think what people will find is that with this growing methodology of packing large plants close and focusing on particularly upper bud development you can with some genetics pull more per M2 than where not defoliating. He strips all leaves before the flip and then strips again at the end of stretch. Thats about the sum of it for $500 bucks so save your cash The Jungle Boys use a similar approach and you will note they pack in the plants and grow them tall. Although the Jungle Boys also state that with some genetics a strip and flip is the go while with others much more gentle defoliation works (genetics again influencing outcomes). What else would need to be tested with defoliation is whether by removing so much source material you reduce THC and other oils (terpenes etc).

If the root mass is not there and you don't adjust your feed while deleafing, don't deleaf.

You will note that those that deleaf, populate heavier. I have the guys that I work with at 3 to 4 times their normal density, producing much more great quality bud per square foot. It also takes a lot more labor. Simple cost benefit calculation, but you better know what you are doing.

The three a light guys have never lived up to their promise unless it was some super variety and vegged long enough. Their fertilization is also bozo. Funny how the stock market throws money at these types....

slownickel said:

If the root mass is not there and you don't adjust your feed while deleafing, don't deleaf.

You will note that those that deleaf, populate heavier. I have the guys that I work with at 3 to 4 times there normal density, producing much more great quality bud per square foot. It also takes a lot more labor. Simple cost benefit calculation, but you better know what you are doing.

The three a light guys have never lived up to their promise unless it was some super variety and vegged long enough. Their fertilization is also bozo. Funny how the stock market throws money at these types....

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Last paragraph is on point

In nature plants not defoliate themself; They don't do that because they don't care to produce more/more quality buds or because there isn't a real benefit doing it ?

sirius02 said:

In nature plants not defoliate themself; They don't do that because they don't care to produce more/more quality buds or because there isn't a real benefit doing it ?

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Siri,

Firstly, as I said before. Defoliation won't work for a grower that doesn't know how to feed right. If You don't have enough Ca in the system, don't even try it. I have feeding schedules that are dumping on 3,300 ppms iand the plants are sucking it up and asking for more. The result? Great yields and quality that creates market pull.

Who says plants don't defoliate in nature? Take a second and third look. What you will see, especially in an older tree, is that the insides of the branches that are in heavily shaded areas have lost their leaves.

There have been various publications in the grape industry about this, and we know this is most definitely the case in crops like tomatoes, cucumbers and even trellised melons. Once there is so much foliage, the leaves no longer produce, they actually consume only. Why? They can no longer produce sufficient energy due to lack of light and resulting diminished photosynthesis. Thus these leaves slowly translocate the more mobile elements out and at one point, the leaf will turn color and fall off. In the meantime, a huge amount of energy was spent trying to maintain that leaf with energy and elements and even worse, HORMONES. All of those assimilates could have been used by the flower or fruit instead.

And also realize that part of the defoliation "system" is to take leaves at the right time of both the day and in the right part of your cycles. Important to also work the architecture so that densities can be increased and turn around times maximized.

In some cases we have tripled up densities. I think we can actually take it ever denser. There was a professor in Chili. Normally folks plant 100 to 600 avocado trees per hectare (2.4 acres). This professor planted 10,000 trees. 1 tree in a 39"x39" area. Normally it takes 4 to 5 years to pay for the investment of an avocado farm. The professor did it in the first year. Think about it... I have been increasing densities in all crops for more than 30 years, that is what trials are for! Key word there is try in trials.

i never defoliated but it seems alot of people do. maybe i should test it with a few to try

The biggest problem about not defoliating I've encountered is not enough airflow around the base of the stem. GG #4 seems to have this problem heaviliy.

big315smooth said:

i never defoliated but it seems alot of people do. maybe i should test it with a few to try

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If thou doubts Defoliants I ask you to watch UG aka Remo's defoliation vid on the YTubes. Its a must, old timers showed me to take roughly 25 % of the longest flaging fan leaves every 10 days. The longer older fans. Light hitting the GREEN BUDS and the upper leaflets produces more energy.

Greater light canopy penetration =bigger fatter buds

Wanted to bump this thread and see if anyone has any new good defoliation side by sides that have come out. I know that GreenGenes Garden from youtube and Nebula Haze from GrowWeedEasy.com both have plans to do a defoliation side by side (GreenGenes' is already in progress) so we may have some more good data soon.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TIRZk7XytIc that is GreenGenes' defoliation but it seems like he messed up his Runts sometime later somehow-

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nUx40zOaLTk I'm not sure what he did to mess up the plants but the defoliated look really bad. I think he cut them all down and started over. I hope he does another side by side of it.

I've also found this one-
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D9QkSIaBt_U

Looks like defoliated lost again.

If by defoliation you mean indiscriminately ripping off all of the leaves, then ya, defoliation is not going to help anything, probably gonna make things worse. I don't even like using the word defoliation because taking a leaf here or there and knowing exactly why you're taking that leaf isn't the same thing as ripping off all of the leaves for no real reason. It's like anything else. People like to do things because it makes them feel in control, even if they don't really know what they're doing or exactly why they're doing it.

personally i think defoliation (and by that i mean removing healthy leaves that aren't shading a bud or getting in the way of something) is the ultimate in bs stoner science.


I would ask this: I have at least 100 books about gardening/horticulture and agriculture on my shelves... which has been developing alongside science for thousands of years, and i can't think of ANY examples of healthy leaves being removed from a plant to increase fruit or flower yield. You get advice to remove fading leaves or leaves that are shading fruit.. but never just to remove healthy leaves....and i think that is pretty telling.


I would be very interested if someone can give me an example outside of canna growing.


The law of conservation of energy says that energy cannot be created or destroyed... only turned from one form to another. The plant converts light energy into chemical energy that the plant uses and stores. If you remove healthy leaves you are removing that energy from the system forever and initially wasting energy that the leaf you have removed would have converted from the light.
How is that going to increase flower weight or yield ?


growers, learn to leave your plants alone.


(the only defol technique that even begins to make sense to me is removing leaves during veg in order to stunt the plant and create more nodes and less internodal distance... but that makes veg last a lot longer)


VG





VG

When asked about this at our hydro store we had one blanket answer:

Leaves are the food factories for your plants. Removing leaf that is not ready to fall off anyway is just taking food away from your plants.

VerdantGreen said:

I would be very interested if someone can give me an example outside of canna growing.

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Well... we defoliate Fuchsias in the GH for the winter. However they go dormant for the winter. I for the life of me cannot think of a horticulture procedure that uses defoliation on other plants. And we got them all tropicals, ornamentals, etc.. and I'm in a horticulture facility.

So defoliation does serve a limited purpose. IF there is any other procedure that uses defoliation I guess its above my pay grade.

As far as defoliation for fruit quality, apple trees, As far as I know its not defoliation, its called pruning, you have to expose apples to get proper light exposure. Its a specialized kind of vase pruning, I shape the trees to get the proper exposure.

A little off topic but I've used alot of concepts from structural tree pruning and apple tree concepts lately and its paid off. I'm getting some good test results from my latest grow over 29% THCA. Do I defoliate?.. nope.

Unless you are not paying attention to the best growers on earth, everyone is defoliating, it is standard practice in most grows, and yeah it has tons of benefits, such as removing useless leaves causing shading that will impact bud yield, and also pushing the plant to have generative growth.


It also helps with pest prevention.


When to do is is more of the question.. But you follow the guys who have been doing it best they recommend the anywhere as early as the week before, when you flip, to within to 1-3 weeks into flowering.

VerdantGreen said:

personally i think defoliation (and by that i mean removing healthy leaves that aren't shading a bud or getting in the way of something) is the ultimate in bs stoner science.

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I agree, I was talking to a colleague about defoliation in ornamentals, and what it does to a plant.

Defoliation from what we know in dealing with Dahlias and Fusicas is that it totally redirects growth. It triggers dormancy. And with Fusicas its done for dormancy and for aphid control.

So dormancy and growth redirection, so for Dahlias, they are defoliated to redirect growth to the tuber.

Soo... Canna is a annual, defoliation methods apply to perennials... at least in the ornamental world.

Lastly, we have issues with defoliation with canna and apical dominance if its done to a canna plant. in canna, we both use similar techniques of structural pruning and using what we know about fruit trees.

Defoliation is not the same as pruning, I wonder if the canna world uses the term differently.