ACE's Panama vs Dr Greenthumb's Panama Red?

Hi.

I don't know what happens among breeders or seed companies. So if a breeder use the work from others or if this strain is mine and it is not yours... Or I have the right to sell them because it is my work, or you have stolen my work,... I preffer not to get inside ego fights.

But going into basic Cannabis differences. We all know to tell apart a pure sativa/NLD from a pure indica/BLD. In hybrids perhaps it is something a bit more difficult if one hybrid is more or less NLD or BLD than other.

But I am sure we all here can recognise at least if an hyped supposed sold as a pure NLD strain carry some BLD/indica genetics. From my point of view strains like Jack Herer, Super Silver Haze, Power Plant,... aren't sativas or NLD. They are hybrids.

Cannabis seeds are far from being cheap. Also in some countries it is dangerous even to possess them. I find terribly annoying to spend something like 10-15% or even 20% of your monthly income, waste the time growing them and taking the risk to go to court or even to prison to later discover you are not growing what you were looking for.


Compare by yourself with the pics in the seed banks websites.

Also I have seen some supposed Malawis that resemble more a typical Hindu Kush plant than any sativa leaning hybrid. Even the description of the high, or better said the stone, it is a couchlock heavy indica one!

I get really sick to look for 100% NLD, landrace or heirlooms, and being advised once and again I must buy seeds from some seedbanks which I see pics of their "pure NLD landraces" and I see only a bunch of hybrids with a high degree of BLD genetics involved.

I have seen how the first batches sold were nice NLD looking plants. But friends who grew latter batches threw the plants to the rubbish bin because they were something completely different.

It is really boring to grow some "pure sativas" to discover they smell like any modern skunky/Afghan hybrid. It is boring to see, hear and read all the people arround you they believe that skunk stink is how all marijuana smells. I have grown real pure NLD and they have a very different fruity pleasant mellow smell.

Also the high, it is so much different... if you have never smoked a pure 100% sativa you cannot understand it.

I am tired!

Just use your eyes and common sense!

The concept of un-touched superior landraces is more of a myth than a reality.
The Dutch genetics have been around for many decades. A MJ farmer in a "foreign" land does not have the purist's desire to preserve some "landrace", they are farming to feed themselves and/or family = they care only about the maximum/quickest yields for the most part. In many, many areas of the World farmers would hear of MJ that would finish much quicker and source seeds from friends/other farmers or even the internet.
No surprise at all that some Malawis would have WLD, with the many years of Malawi growing, Indica/WLD genetics were certainly introduced, as they were in many similar growing regions Worldwide.
I remember throwing some Mexican seeds outdoors many years ago. Several were huge monsters that never finished. But several were WLD that finished in October and were pretty damn good lol.
A good NLD plant that finishes in 12-16 weeks is highly appreciated by me. I do not need a never ending 26 week+ strain ( 1/2 a year !!) The final product is what counts, not how long it takes.

There are many examples of "pure" NLD landraces on Phylos galaxy. One Malawi and one Zambian show no skunk admixture, but both lines show a small but consistent signature from something indica like as is the case with many of the more "refined" NLDs like Kerala, and I suspect, many other old classics as well. Maybe it's that little something extra that made them stand out in the first place or maybe it's just noise from the method they're using to sequence stuff. Using different reference groups could give different results.

Also worth noting that there seem to be at least two different kinds of indica genepools. The other afganica, or kush like and the other genepool more akin to greater Himalayan landraces (berry). Afaik most Himalayan and SE Asian NLDs show some relation (sometimes negligible) to the berry indica genepool, but not kush. I'm not sure it qualifies as "indica admixture", I guess it's semantic anyway.

What I don't like seeing is genetic relation to skunk, as that would imply the involvement of western genetics but that's just me.

I think skunk is just another Afghan phenotype traced back in time.

There's no doubt in my mind the heartland of medicinal cannabis is the rough quadrilateral area around Turkmenistan, Uzbekistan, Tajikistan and Afghanistan.
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I've yet to understand this:If someone supposedly could test in phylos the pure landraces that were used in the breeding of skunk,would they show up as pure landraces or skunk related?I think their system is useful for showing some close related genetics ,but regarding "contamination",I'm not so sure...Shouldn't Sam's skunk be 100% skunk?Also,where is this ohaze ?

Syd Barrett said:

I've yet to understand this:If someone supposedly could test in phylos the pure landraces that were used in the breeding of skunk,would they show up as pure landraces or skunk related?I think their system is useful for showing some close related genetics ,but regarding "contamination",I'm not so sure...Shouldn't Sam's skunk be 100% skunk?Also,where is this ohaze ?

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Colombian Gold shows up as 95% landrace and all Colombian Gold tested by Phylos are immediate family. Colombian Gold has other landrace as relatives. Acapulco Gold probably hasn't been preserved as a pure landrace since the early 1970's. Maybe Bodhi's Acapulco Gold would test +90% landrace. Most Acapulco Gold grows I've seen show WLD influence.

At some point, Colombian Gold and Acapulco Gold were crossed with WLD and or Afghani cultivars. The crosses would test, on Phylos as at least 50% Skunk and or 50% Berry.

Its very odd that Phylos hasn't posted test results of SamS Original Haze. The immediate family should be Punto Rojo, Thai, Indian and 100% to +90%) landrace. Original Haze relatives and immediate family would answer a lot of breeding questions, especially if it doesn't test 100% to +90% Landrace.

Interesting discussion about breeding ethics on this thread.

A bit of Punto Rojo - green with red points that was harvested with some amber resin and cured red. The high is more euphoric and complex than Punto Rojo harvested with clear and cloudy resin, which would cure green with red points and not a red color like this late harvest. Some of smoking a NLD Red is in the harvest and cure.



1971 Panama Red thru Miami high was strong body stone, wild and crazy other worldly trippy with denser high than the 1971 Colombian Red that came thru New York City. The Colombian high was a cleaner, and more cerebral high. Cannabiogen's Punto Rojo if grown properly is a very good example of late 1960's early 1970's Highland Colombian. I've been smoking Cannabiogen's Punto Rojo for several years.

PS> The extreme NLD long flowering geno-types of Panama should be very trippy by anybody's standards. With Caribbean varieties you'll find both WLD/NLD and NLD cultivars. Classifying geno-types by country is not very specific. Even in the 1970's there could have ben 100's of cultivars growing in a country, especially so in Panama which lies on an international trade route thru the Panama Canal.

Cheers!

billyblog said:

Anyone here had the opportunity to compare ACE's Panama to Dr Greenthumb's Panama Red? What were your findings?

I've currently got ACE's Panama in early flowering and I detect some notably Skunk-ish, Dutch type under/overtones to it, leaves are rather broad and indica-ish, Dr Greenthumb's Panama Red is allegedly a pure landrace sativa, looks as if it could possibly be the real deal. I know Dr G had been trying to get his hands on the real deal for many years.

Any thoughts, anyone?

Thanks,

billy

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it is definitely pure sativa and not made new grower friendly..

Doc had sativas out damn near 20 yrs before the sativa seed bank rush

oaxaca,ag,malawi,durban..


they just sat there because every wanted indica's.......

and he didn't make them friendly by nudging them with indicas

like him or not he was WAY ahead of his time and still has truly awesome gear......

all the rest [good or bad] are johnny come lately's

http://forums.mainemedmarijuana.com/index.php?showtopic=10301

I think there must be still many pure NLD's still out there without any BLD admixture.

I you look what Sam explained when he asked for seeds for the Phylos CANNABIS DNA PROJECT you will read this:

Presently, the team is building a high-resolution map of the Cannabis genome, based on a modern hybrid THC/CBD strain, using PacBio long-read Next-Gen Sequencing (NGS). The map will serve as a reference key for analysis of thousands of other accessions using an SNP (Single Nucleotide Polymorphism) NGS protocol called GBS (Genotyping By Sequencing) allowing high-resolution characterization of each accession.

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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Single-nucleotide_polymorphism

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4179701/

So if a pure NLD shows a bit of berry or skunk. It doesn't mean it is contaminated or hybridized. They only share some common ancestors.

So if I see something like this:https://testing.phylosbioscience.com/sample/genotype/4g7j2yg9

I think nobody introduced a "berry" strain in Central Africa and later pygmy growers made many backcrosses. I think it only the two strains share a few common ancestors.

If berry means blueberry (I don't know), it is an hybrid with some Thai and Mexican genetics, both NLD so I think that there is the relationship.

Also Skunk is 50% Mexican and 25% Colombian I think. Both NLD. So I think many true NLD Mexicans share SNP's with Skunk without admixture with any Skunk strain.

Most Acapulco Gold seeds from seedbanks nowadays are only knockoffs. So for sure they share a lot of SNP's with BLD related moderns strains. Because they actually have BLD genetics.

It is interesting to see that a supposed true 1979 Acapulco Gold shares SNP's mainly with hemp. https://testing.phylosbioscience.com/sample/genotype/vgqqwq2g

Could be that 1979 David Crosby's Acapulco Gold an IBL stablized by mass selection long ago?

Actual old Acapulco Gold is the ancestor of many modern strains. So there is nothing strange it shares SNP's with modern hybrids.

I am not sure if I am right but it is what I think.

I hope Sam explain it much better and tell if I am wrong.

P.D. I'm sorry f it is explained in other thread I haven't seen.

I do hope, and it is very much possible that the skunk component represents something related to the sativa side in skunk. Using modern western strains as reference populations for landraces is not the best way to determine genetic relations. The skunk component shows up all over Pakistan, (even in PCK) Nepal and Thailand which is strange since some of the Himalayan samples probably represent feral plants. If I recall right Pakistani strains cluster relatively close to Mexico and Thai strains cluster close to Colombia. Maybe the skunk score for those areas is reflecting that, who knows.

"So if a pure NLD shows a bit of berry or skunk. It doesn't mean it is contaminated or hybridized. They only share some common ancestors."

Hey abhortabor, The 1971 Acapulco Gold we smoked was one of the best from the 1970's and certainly no trace of hemp in the smoke of 1971 Acapulco Gold.

You'll see landrace genetics as relatives or immediate family in Skunk and Berry.

My rule is 10% Skunk, Berry, OG Kush, or Hemp in a landrace is okay- 40% is not okay.

If an NLD is 100% landrace - Skunk, OG Kush, Hemp, or Berry will not show up in the DNA of the Landrace. If something other than landrace shows up its not 100% Landrace. Phylos shows most +90% landrace NLD long flowering with many landrace relatives and some with other landrace family. To me this indicates its a Landrace 1 x Landrace 2 x Landrace 3.

There is a tested sample of Punto Rojo that has skunk and berry relatives, and is 50% landrace, which to means its a landrace x skunk/berry or 50% landrace DNA. A Pure Punto Rojo should test 100% Landrace with at least 60% - 70% of its relatives being other Colombians. Most of the Colombians test like this at Phylos. if you can't figure it out thru Phylos, it should become crystal clear in a smoke test.

I sort of understand NLD long flowering +90% Landraces DNA reports in Phylos. + 90% Landraces NLD / sativa Phylos Reports are ones I've studied. Phylos's definition of landrace may be different than the true definition of landrace. Phylos's definition of landrce seems to agree with how cannabis was named in the 1970's by country, growing region and color, ie Santa Marta highland Colombian Gold, there is also a lowland or coastal growing regions around Santa Marta which could have more in common with Caribbean cultivars. Same for Mangobiche, there is highland and coastal lowland cultivars with Mangobiche.

Perhaps one explanation of why some people note Mangobiche flowers for 11 weeks and others note Mangobiche flowers for 22 weeks. Even with the same name, you aren't comparing apples to apples when comparing an 11 week flowering cultivar to a 22 week flowering cultivar. The same with Panama cultivars there are short flowering and long flowering cultivars.

PS> (Colombian Gold x Afghani) x Acapulco Gold) on paper should yield mostly + 16 week long flowering NLD plants that have a very cerebral and trippy high. Everything they smoke on the streets in Colorado smells like skunk to me. Phylos may have a different definition than - (Colombian Gold x Afghani) x Acapulco Gold) either that or the Afghani genes dominated the cross, or the breeders are selecting for BLD / WLD traits.

In the future I think they will be able to identify specific genetic markers on Colombians, Thais, Africans etc. varieties.

but they started with the basics.

I think it will be a long slow process to work it all out if its anything like the work being done to sort out different Human groups and their origins.



"A genetic marker is a gene or DNA sequence with a known location on a chromosome that can be used to identify individuals or species. It can be described as a variation (which may arise due to mutation or alteration in the genomic loci) that can be observed. A genetic marker may be a short DNA sequence, such as a sequence surrounding a single base-pair change (single nucleotide polymorphism, SNP), or a long one, like minisatellites."

Hi satva. I agree with you.

What I wanted to say is that those groups made by Phylos as skunk, berry, landrace, og kush, hemp and CBD are a bit strange.

My intepretation is that landrace = NLD.
I think hemp = European fiber hemp, so Cannabis sativa (NLH). I have no idea about CBD means, because NLH main cannabinoid usually is CBD.

About skunk, berry, and ok kush, all of them are NLD/BLD hybrids, so they carry mixed SNP's from their ancestors. They have some NLD and BLD SNP's.

As you have said, and I am completely agree with you, a 5-10% or so of berry or skunk in a NLD landrace must not means that landrace is contaminated or admixtured with modern hybrids. What I think it means is that landrace shares those 5% SNP's with the NLD component in the berry or skunk. Like this one:

https://testing.phylosbioscience.com/sample/genotype/58m6n6wg

But if you find a 40 or 50% of Skunk, OG Kush or so SNP's in a supposed pure NLD, then I suspect that landrace is contaminated or hybridized with modern hybrids for sure. For example like this:

https://testing.phylosbioscience.com/sample/genotype/5gkvz3o2

The fact is I don't know exactly what means the groups made by Phylos. Because a pure Afghan BLD is also a "landrace" too. And I don't know if berry means actually DJ Short's Blueberry.

About Acapulco Gold, really I don't know. I am too young and live too far to have known or smoked the real one.

I thought some time ago Mexican NLD's could be only carefully selected hemp (NLH) from Spain by Mexican farmers throughout a few centuries. Because some NLH strains in Southern Europe carry the BT alelle alongside the BD alelle.

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/pdf/10.3732/ajb.91.6.966

The presence of allele BT in the C. sativa gene pool suggests that introgression from C. indica might have played a role in the evolution of C. sativa. Wind-blown pollen may have contributed to allele migration between the two gene pools (Cabezudo et al., 1997⇓). Relatively high BT frequencies (range 0.38–0.55) were detected in seven hemp accessions from Turkey, Spain, Italy, former Yugoslavia, and southern Russia, which are assignable to the southern eco-geographical group of C. sativa (Davidyan, 1972⇓). Additional allozyme markers and morphological traits typical of C. indica were also observed in the southern group of C. sativa (Hillig, 2004⇓, in press).

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Human selection of plants carrying two copies of the BT allele appears only to be of appreciable significance in the domestication of the NLD biotype. Human selection may have resulted in an increase in the quantitative levels of cannabinoids produced by the WLD biotype, but the average amount of CBD + THC produced by the NLD biotype did not significantly differ from the hemp and feral biotypes of C. indica. In fact, the average amount of THC + CBD produced by the NLD accessions was not significantly greater than the average amount of these two cannabinoids produced by the hemp accessions of C. sativa. Small and Beckstead (1973b)⇓

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However, in some fiber ecotypes, like the one for which chemotypes distribution is shown in Figure 3 (an old Italian fiber ecotype, Eletta Campana), the number of plants that should be considered homozygous for THC was indeed not negligible; besides, the ab- solute amount of THC in the inflorescences, though not at the levels of the drug strains, is high enough to make this cultivar ineligible for EU subsidies. At the beginning of the 1990s, this situation was common for many dioecious fiber cultivars, and therefore the necessity arose, for an effective presence on the mar- ket, to “clean” the seed batches from THC-producing plants, without altering the overall genetic background.

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https://www.icmag.com/ic/showpost.php?p=7787473&postcount=276

But later a good friend made me change my mind about that. Because it is more convincing Mexican NLD strains arrived there directly from South East Asia carried by the Manila Galleon. Which docked every year at the Acapulco harbour.

Mota: The historic role of Cannabis in Mexico

But I remembered my former hypothesis again when I saw this:

https://testing.phylosbioscience.com/sample/genotype/vgqqwq2g

Modern breeding is something too arrogant. I think no breeder can do in a few years the same work as farmers have done along centuries. But I don't know what could be the actual origin of the real old Acapulco Gold or Mexican NLD heirlooms or landraces.

Edited: I found a Panama but I am not sure now if it is ACE Panama. It is very rare genetically.

https://testing.phylosbioscience.com/sample/genotype/mgj1z3g7








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It's just me that I'm not convinced of the phylos?I'm not just talking about panama,in general,....
perhaps it also depends on who sends the sample ...
For example,panama is a 3 way,old panama,new panama and punto rojo,but phylos dont say that...

Natural high said:

Edited: I found a Panama but I am not sure now if it is ACE Panama. It is very rare genetically.

https://testing.phylosbioscience.com/sample/genotype/mgj1z3g7

.

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That looks like what I would expect from Panama red 1974. This is Ace panama, https://testing.phylosbioscience.com/sample/genotype/z810v1g7 showing surprisingly little western influence, depending on what that CBD component represents.

I can't be too convinced by Phylos either. We have to remember this is version number one. I'm sure in five or ten years they'l l get more sense into it. They should really consider using different reference groups instead of berry, skunk or what have you. Now it's like determining how much neanderthals had genes from modern New Yorkers.

I get it, growers today are ignorant of landraces so a name like OG Kush speaks to them a lot more than Acapulco Gold for example but maybe they should still consider taking a more scientific approach..

95% of seed bank strains today descend from 1. Original Haze 2. Skunk#1 3. Afghani 4. Northern Lights (which is a kind of afghan x skunk probably) Why not use those as your reference groups? Just add a hemp reference group and a few different landrace groups and you have it pretty much covered. CBD as a group doesn't mean anything at all.

PANAMA ACE:

2 generations of Panama 74 x Panama Red Hair
1 generation of Panama 74 / Red Hair F2 x 3 males Panama Network of third line different
4 generations of this triad plus and voila (current seeds of Panama ACE for sale in regular and feminized)

https://www.cannabiogen.com/club/viewtopic.php?f=36&t=1653&start=30

Some descriptions include punto rojo but the ACE site has down as 3 panama strains

Anyone know the differences panama goddess and A22? thanks!


Ace version is very worked and developed and uses 1974 panama red standard regular seeds and fem

Greenthumb seems more wild and only feminzed

I can't be too convinced by Phylos either. We have to remember this is version number one. I'm sure in five or ten years they'l l get more sense into it. They should really consider using different reference groups instead of berry, skunk or what have you. Now it's like determining how much neanderthals had genes from modern New Yorkers.

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You hit the nail on the head. That was what I tried to explain before.

About 2% genes from modern New Yorkers can be found in Neanderthals as Phylos Galaxy establish with his Skunk, Berry, OG Kush,... groups. It could be the proof time travelling will be possible

You need a well choosen outgroup to understand a cladogram. Or you will have chickens are the ancestors of Tyrannosaurus.

An outgroup that is nested within the ingroup will, when used to root the phylogeny, result in incorrect conclusions about phylogenetic relationships and trait evolution.

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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Outgroup_(cladistics)#Choice_of_outgroup

I have seen some seedbanks sell seeds under the same name, and the ones from a few years ago looked like pure NLD and today they resemble more a highly BLD.

I wonder what seeds they sent to Phylos.

.

herbgreen said:

PANAMA ACE:

2 generations of Panama 74 x Panama Red Hair
1 generation of Panama 74 / Red Hair F2 x 3 males Panama Network of third line different
4 generations of this triad plus and voila (current seeds of Panama ACE for sale in regular and feminized)

https://www.cannabiogen.com/club/viewtopic.php?f=36&t=1653&start=30

Some descriptions include punto rojo but the ACE site has down as 3 panama strains

Anyone know the differences panama goddess and A22? thanks!


Ace version is very worked and developed and uses 1974 panama red standard regular seeds and fem

Greenthumb seems more wild and only feminzed

Click to expand...

I love that kind of post, missing Charlie....

panama red 1974

https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=196211