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Hollow stemed, has DJshort got it all wrong??

trichrider

trichrider

Kiss My Ring
Veteran
how does this correlate to drug varietal hollow stems?
especially since we (i) would prefer shorter internode...grow from 12/12?
as factor of breeding/selection?

appreciate the reply. thanks
 
K

Kankakee

Member
not really sure.

but i think the hollow stems do come from hemp varieties in asia.

dj short did not have the internet for communicating or for research. so many university studies, hemp breeding techniques etc not available to dj .....

dj short had limited space. he was doing selections in small numbers.

luther burbank did selection for his breeding work using 20,000-200,000 plants or more looking for outlier plants mutants for breeding advancement ....

so IMO, d.j. short was making assumptions that may have seem logical but his results could have come from other factors and hollow stems could have shown more in his earlier work as he worked with many unmolested b.o.e.l imported strains.

luther burbank crossed petunia's with tobacco and developed a totally new hybrid between unrelated species but required thousands of attempts.
 
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K

Kankakee

Member
some of the best breeding knowledge comes from hemp ( sativa L ). testing and research 70 + years ago. and they worked outside.

many if not all modern THC breeders worked indoors. this is not good for quality .... ( not thc wise but health defense towards pest / fungus )

as breeding generationally outdoors will help a plant naturally acclimate and advance. breeding indoors introduces stresses in un-natural environment that carry forward in the genetic make-up and future seed quality regarding stresses, pest, that effect quality.

duding of plants falls under this matrix. an annual plant who's life is extended never advancing ...
 
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therevverend

therevverend

Well-known member
Veteran
Haven't thought about it in a while because I've found hollow stems to be ubiquitous in the cannabis I've grown. I've never grown hemp, mainly I've grown Indicas and hybrids.
Had to check some stems I had lying around in case I stopped paying attention They're hollow. Some of them are Bodhi's breeding for example, modern high potency cannabis. Even the small stems have a reduction in pithyness down the middle. All the main stems and large branches are hollow.
In the 70s and dealing with land race sources in the thousands I'm guessing it could be one of the tools for selection. Now it's probably obsolete with the high quality of seed available. Regardless of hollow or not most growers are using high potency seeds without the enormous culls necessary with landrace genetics.
Of course I'm no expert on hemp, feral, or seed and oil strains. No idea if they're pithy or hollow. Or tropical sativas. I can say that most modern hybrids and Indicas have hollow stems. I'd think it's a trait associated with wide leaf varieties because I've noticed they have hollow stems. The trait may be dominant in hybrid progeny? Or drug strains from other parts of the world have hollow stems.
I'm guessing this is to facilitate rapid transit of nutrients to the quickly growing flower clusters? Pushing liquid nutrients through the plant stems seems more efficient then using osmosis to push the nutrients through plant matter cell by cell. The large fertilizer intake, rapid growth rate, and large yields of modern hybrids may be connected. Of course this could be wrong..
Sad that all my information comes from my own personal observations. The reference material from RCC and Short are 40 years old. The amount of research on cannabis has increased but there is a huge lack of information.
 
C

clearheaded

Active member
trichrider said:
could it be that hollow stems reflect long light schedule in veg?
like 24 hour, or 18 hour disrupting hormone/cytokinin production?

just my thoughts
Click to expand...

naa as studies are for outdoor plants grown at same bat time same bat place.... And still would discount DJ idea to select males of hollow stem.

edit: sorry wasnt clear if you look at the study i referenced It gave a cross section of hemp and "columbian gold" grown presumably outdoors at the USA legal miss grow, showing hemp with hollow and CG with pith filled stems.. noting CG is NLD cultivar.

peace
 
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C

clearheaded

Active member
therevverend said:
Haven't thought about it in a while because I've found hollow stems to be ubiquitous in the cannabis I've grown. I've never grown hemp, mainly I've grown Indicas and hybrids.
Had to check some stems I had lying around in case I stopped paying attention They're hollow. Some of them are Bodhi's breeding for example, modern high potency cannabis. Even the small stems have a reduction in pithyness down the middle. All the main stems and large branches are hollow.
In the 70s and dealing with land race sources in the thousands I'm guessing it could be one of the tools for selection. Now it's probably obsolete with the high quality of seed available. Regardless of hollow or not most growers are using high potency seeds without the enormous culls necessary with landrace genetics.
Of course I'm no expert on hemp, feral, or seed and oil strains. No idea if they're pithy or hollow. Or tropical sativas. I can say that most modern hybrids and Indicas have hollow stems. I'd think it's a trait associated with wide leaf varieties because I've noticed they have hollow stems. The trait may be dominant in hybrid progeny? Or drug strains from other parts of the world have hollow stems.
I'm guessing this is to facilitate rapid transit of nutrients to the quickly growing flower clusters? Pushing liquid nutrients through the plant stems seems more efficient then using osmosis to push the nutrients through plant matter cell by cell. The large fertilizer intake, rapid growth rate, and large yields of modern hybrids may be connected. Of course this could be wrong..
Sad that all my information comes from my own personal observations. The reference material from RCC and Short are 40 years old. The amount of research on cannabis has increased but there is a huge lack of information.
Click to expand...

old dried up stems are hard to compare as when truly dry the pith does shrink and therefore may appear "hollow" Also as selecting males in particular seemed to be the way to go that may have played a part aswell. ie modern hybrids selecting hollow stem males for several generations. Again there may have been a hybrid "bonus" in vigor which may be greater then the selecting for hemp phenotypic expression. Hard part is perhaps we would of reached the 30%+ thc much earlier without this misnomer? or maybe not? as I am sure along with structure bodhi used hollow stemmed males... how are drug traits related? hard to say but all we do know is non drug cultivars have that trait and landrace drug cultivars didnt.... couple generations perhaps didnt make a difference? hard to know.

I am interested if anyone has Robert Clarkes book if he indeed echoed what DJ purported. If Mr Watson or Chimera could chime in it would be greatly appreciated to get to the bottom of this or at least interested in there opinions on help or hinderance of this myth for millions of home breeders and maybe remove this idea from the cannabis lexicon.
 
VerdantGreen

VerdantGreen

Genetics Facilitator
Boutique Breeder
Mentor
ICMag Donor
Veteran
thanks DC that thread is very interesting and a must read for anyone who likes defoliating too!
 
C

clearheaded

Active member
Again, yes deficiencies can cause leaves to change color shape length etc aswell as MANY morphological changes. We here are assuming there is no deficiencies and based on healthy plants. will thin stemed plant be more prone to having its stems filled with pith yes, and if grown thicker it may appear to be less pithy. What we are discussing here is the fact that narrow leaf hemp cultivars have little to no pith while narrow leaf drug cultivars do have increase in pith. Keeping in mind there may have been a mass selecting towards hollow stem which is associated with hemp. And perhaps DJ and (clarke if anyone can confirm it indeed states this in his book?) made an assumption hemp growers selected for more pith as thinking thats the better fiber?? however pith isnt the long fibers and was likely selected against as it made it alot harder to harvest fibers ie difficult retting process pre and post industrialization ...
 
G

growhigh1233

none of my prize plants are hollow stem

my prize blueberry is pith filled ! the only traits i select on are resin content smell/flavour and high ................ everything else means nothing to me including yield
 
C

CaptainDankness

Well-known member
I don't think it really matters too much resin production, flowers and terpines should come before the stems.

You throw out all pith filled stems you can be losing a lot of other variations. You also don't want too hollow of stems if she has to support big colas in strong winds.
 
therevverend

therevverend

Well-known member
Veteran
old dried up stems are hard to compare as when truly dry the pith does shrink and therefore may appear "hollow"
Click to expand...

That's not happening with my stems they are hollow at harvest. I mention Bodhi's strain just because those are the stems I have I can link to a popular breeder. Like I said before the hollow stems are present on basically all the plants I've ever grown. As I said earlier I doubt for instance Bodhi is selecting for hollow stems. The drug strains are already hollow stem.
The only thing I can't say for certain, I haven't grown many equatorial drug strains. Basically everything hybridized or Indica I've seen has been hollow stemmed for as long as I've grown. Males are usually hollow too.
In the linked thread posters mention hollowness is a function of age. I find that to be true. Once a healthy outdoor plant reaches a certain age and size it becomes hollow stemmed. Perhaps the reason you aren't seeing hollow stems in your plants is because you're growing indoors and not growing big enough plants?
Posters are saying that solid stem cuttings have a much better survival rate then hollow stemmed cuttings. Of course younger fast growing solid stemmed parts of plants will root much better then older thicker stemmed parts. Vigorous upper branches are always solid.
As far as hollow stem structure being weaker in storms and such it seems unlikely. Plants that are pithy are structurally weak in the middle, the pith wouldn't be strong enough to provide reinforcement. The tough part of the stem is very strong. Plenty of hollow stemmed plants have been battered by storms and been fine. I've found plant shape and root strength to be key factors.
 
burningfire

burningfire

Well-known member
Veteran
therevverend said:
That's not happening with my stems they are hollow at harvest. I mention Bodhi's strain just because those are the stems I have I can link to a popular breeder. Like I said before the hollow stems are present on basically all the plants I've ever grown. As I said earlier I doubt for instance Bodhi is selecting for hollow stems. The drug strains are already hollow stem.
The only thing I can't say for certain, I haven't grown many equatorial drug strains. Basically everything hybridized or Indica I've seen has been hollow stemmed for as long as I've grown. Males are usually hollow too.
In the linked thread posters mention hollowness is a function of age. I find that to be true. Once a healthy outdoor plant reaches a certain age and size it becomes hollow stemmed. Perhaps the reason you aren't seeing hollow stems in your plants is because you're growing indoors and not growing big enough plants?
Posters are saying that solid stem cuttings have a much better survival rate then hollow stemmed cuttings. Of course younger fast growing solid stemmed parts of plants will root much better then older thicker stemmed parts. Vigorous upper branches are always solid.
As far as hollow stem structure being weaker in storms and such it seems unlikely. Plants that are pithy are structurally weak in the middle, the pith wouldn't be strong enough to provide reinforcement. The tough part of the stem is very strong. Plenty of hollow stemmed plants have been battered by storms and been fine. I've found plant shape and root strength to be key factors.
Click to expand...

I've grown plants with degrees of stem hollowness, I don't think it's a marker for potency but it is something that is bred for in fiber strains, what is harvested isn't the wood but the layer of fiber before the woody part.

Someone pointed out that DJ probably developed that theory because he was selecting progeny with stronger thai influences
 
C

clearheaded

Active member
officially MYTHBUSTED* ooo . thats a great idea since cannabis community loves spoofs AND alot of misconceptions misinfo out there.... well sorry guys, I own the idea...
 
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