Lightweight Peat's Mucky Muck soil testing

The first fancy soil run I did was a modified subcool soil recipe

8 large bags of a high-quality organic potting soil
25 to 50 lbs of organic worm castings
5 lbs steamed bone meal
5 lbs Bloom bat guano
5 lbs blood meal
3 lbs rock phosphate
¾ cup Epson salts
½ cup sweet lime (dolomite)
½ cup azomite (trace elements)
2 tbsp powdered humic acid

It was well composted compost instead of mostly peat potting soil as called for the end result was very organic hot and compacted muck. Then I cut it with a half a bale of peat to losen it. It had great nutrients and water holding ability. The pH was high so I lowered it with sweet lime. I added some perlite vermiculite and river sand also. At that point it would burn seedlings and semi mature plants loved it. I got a store bought NPK and pH tester. I was tuning now! The micros I didn't have a count on I just threw in azomite and hoped for the best.

My next batch of super soil I would like to have dialed in a little better maybe you have some ideas about a standardized mix?

Sure. Mix your peat, castings,composts, aeration and any CEC enhancing amendments like humates or clay. Just make an empty base mix.

Record the ratio of peat to composts, and aeration.

Make small batches at first to test
All these organic ingredients are variable. Buy small amounts at first. Ive heard of composts and even vermiculite that are salty plant killers. Let's find out before you mix a big batch.

With good measuring cups and a gram scale, you could make a 2gallon batch just to test. A 2 gallon recipie is easy to convert to 20 or a 200 gallon yard. Or go 10L to be metric.

Once you have a base mix, send it for a Mehlich 3. the test, you can figure out what you want. It's not as complicated as it sounds.

I wonder what our idea pH ec cec ppm levels would be for our plants do you have any test grows with known values?

I wonder the same. I'm sure we will find many differing opinions.

I do know that if us lightweight soil growers are not having tests done in the proper manner, how can we compare notes?

biggreg said:

I wonder the same. I'm sure we will find many differing opinions.
I do know that if us lightweight soil growers are not having tests done in the proper manner, how can we compare notes?

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I agree totally if we have a standard medium then we could do test grows.
Show results for different strains and nutrients.

The hyro growers already take this to some serious technical levels.
Most soil growers dont seem as concerned I guess because the margin for error is lower. I personally would like to do the best I can do.

I looked into some colleges and the agricultural extension offices they have offer me soil testing at what seemed like reasonable prices.
I have not done it yet im thinking maybe I should and we could then compare notes on soils nutes and grows.

These are some of the options available to me

*************************************************************
Individual Soil Tests for Characterization
ID Test Description Cost/Sample
S24. Research Mehlich 3 Routine – includes pH, A-E Buffer and LOI-OM –
Data reported by spreadsheet only – no recommendations
$10.00
S1. Water pH only $6.00
S2. Water pH and Adams-Evans Buffer pH $8.00
S3. Organic Matter by Loss on Ignition $7.00
S4. Walkley-Black Organic Matter $9.00
S5. Mehlich 3 Extraction for P, K, Ca, Mg, Mn, Zn, Cu, Fe, B, S, Al and
PSR
$10.00
S6. Additional M3 Elements in same extract at $2.00 per element per
sample
Varies
S7. Nitrate- and Ammonium-N by 2M KCl Extraction $10.00
S8. Ammonium-N Only $8.00
S9. Nitrate-N only $8.00
S10. Total Nitrogen by Combustion $10.00
S11. Total Carbon by Combustion $13.00
S12. Total Nitrogen and Total Carbon by Combustion $17.50
S13. Cation Exchange Capacity at pH 7.0
Displacement by NH4+ Saturation
$24.00
S14. Cation Exchange Capacity at pH 7.0 Plus Exchangeable Cations
(Ca, K, Mg and Na)
$30.00
S15. Exchangeable Cation Only $10.00
S16. Exchangeable Acidity Only $14.00
S17. Soil Textural Analysis by the Boyoucos Hydrometer Method
(% Sand, % Silt and % Clay and USDA Textural Class)
$20.00
S18. USDA Sand Classes $20.00
S19. Custom Sieve Analysis – Charge is $5.00 per sieve
e.g., 3 sieves requested = 3 sieves X $5.00 per = $15.00 per sample
Varies
S20. Microwave Digestion $13.00
S21. Autoblock Digestion $12.00
S22. Individual Elements in the Digest by ICP:
$5.00/sample for first element, $2.00/element/sample for each additional
element. e.g. 3 elements would cost $5.00+$2.00+$2.00 or $9.00 per
sample
Varies
S23. Digest- Routine Element Package (P, K, Ca, Mg, Mn, Zn, Cu, Fe, B, S,
Al)
$10.00
Other soil tests may be available by request. Call for information and pricing.


*************************************************************
What do you think is the minimum tests I should order I saw these options

Nitrate- and Ammonium-N by 2M KCl Extraction $10.00

Research Mehlich 3 Routine – includes pH, A-E Buffer and LOI-OM –
Data reported by spreadsheet only – no recommendations
$10.00

Mehlich 3 Extraction for P, K, Ca, Mg, Mn, Zn, Cu, Fe, B, S, Al and
PSR
$10.00

Cation Exchange Capacity at pH 7.0 Plus Exchangeable Cations
(Ca, K, Mg and Na)
$30.00

*************************************************************
I was thinking minimum I want tested is those 14 we talked about earlier? The essential ones right?

As far as standardizing mixes, I like my soil recipies to be in this format;

All base ingredients will be added by percentage and parts of their field moist volume.

My last tester mix, i decided to try 20% old my old broken down mix, 10% crushed sharp sand, 15% castings and 55% peat. Convert that to parts and I had 4 parts old mix, 2 parts sand, 3 parts castings and 11 parts peat. 4-2-3-11. Those could be cups or gallons or dump trucks. Parts are the way to go with base ingredients.

Any dry ingredients are weighed in grams per kilo of dried soil since the soil tests were being reported back to me in mg/kg. If i want 100ppm more Ca, I weigh in 100mg/kg of Ca. Using mass per kg of base mix for our dry ingredients, those ingredients are scaleable as well.



Recipies should be scalable and reproducible if we want to start to get a little science going.

The S5 Mehlich 3 is what I'm familiar with. Get that one.

biggreg said:

The S5 Mehlich 3 is what I'm familiar with. Get that one.

Click to expand...

Ok that one sounds good, my only concern was it didnt give me a Nitrogen reading?

This soil type test
S17. Soil Textural Analysis by the Boyoucos Hydrometer Method
(% Sand, % Silt and % Clay and USDA Textural Class)
$20.00

Seems simple to do at home


Apparently loam the middle one is the best?

Nitrogen is hard to test for.

biggreg said:

As far as standardizing mixes, I like my soil recipies to be in this format;

All base ingredients will be added by percentage and parts of their field moist volume.

My last tester mix, i decided to try 20% old my old broken down mix, 10% crushed sharp sand, 15% castings and 55% peat. Convert that to parts and I had 4 parts old mix, 2 parts sand, 3 parts castings and 11 parts peat. 4-2-3-11. Those could be cups or gallons or dump trucks. Parts are the way to go with base ingredients.

Any dry ingredients are weighed in grams per kilo of dried soil since the soil tests were being reported back to me in mg/kg. If i want 100ppm more Ca, I weigh in 100mg/kg of Ca. Using mass per kg of base mix for our dry ingredients, those ingredients are scaleable as well.



Recipies should be scalable and reproducible if we want to start to get a little science going.

Click to expand...

This is a good idea!!! My finished recipe and yours was very similar I have been getting much better results lately!!!

The only issue, I think the leaves could be greener and a little more shiny. I think they would be healthier if I accounted for the humic acid with a water soluble iron. I thought of adding red silt/clay or another amendment like greensand or gypsum. What do you think?

I had a list of scientific soil recipes I need to find.... I think your really close to perfect as could be.

4-Compost (or recycled mix?)
2-Sand
3-Castings
11-Peat (coco choir) ph or Na ?

Peat
Peat Moss has an acidic pH, generally in the range of 4.4 (a pH of 7 is neutral; higher pH numbers indicate alkaline soils).

CoCo
To make sure salt is being removed, use an EC/ppm meter to check the TDS
Total Dissolved Solids. What is the acceptable level of salt Na ?
Coco coir usually has a ph of 6.0 to 6.5 (I have been wanting to try this)

I could reproduce your above recipe here where I am, I think most people could come up with the ingredients?

acespicoli said:

This is a good idea!!! My finished recipe and yours was very similar I have been getting much better results lately!!!

The only issue, I think the leaves could be greener and a little more shiny. I think they would be healthier if I accounted for the humic acid with a water soluble iron. I thought of adding red silt/clay or another amendment like greensand or gypsum. What do you think?

Click to expand...

I think it's best to know what is in the soil before guessing on gypsum or other amendments.

I don't endorse my mix. It's just a tester.

I'm just proposing all of our recipies should be in parts and grams of amendment per kg of dried soil. So we can have scaleable and reproduceable mixes that are in an easy format to relate to a soil test.

Or

In parts and grams per liter if you get or convert your soil mass report with bulk density to a volumetric one.

And I'm ready to ditch gallons and yards. I'm already metric everywhere else when it comes to mixes. It's just easier to deal with. Asked wifey for some metric measuring cups and stuff for xmas.

The more i ponder this testing stuff, the more I'm leaning towards the NCDA soil tests offered by labs in North Carolina. The volumetric reporting in ppm -mg/l and CEC in meq /100cm3. We wouldn't have to take a bulk density or convert our amendments to grams per kilo. We could stick with grams per liter. Plus this NCDA style is the way Dr. Mehlich wanted it done for his test. It was designed for organic and mineral soils. The NCDA has reccomendations calibrated for organic soils and this test.

A mass based test that isn't scooped works but has to be basically converted into a NCDA style to make sense.



*update: due to problems relating volume only test to other per mass tests like AA7.0CEC or AA8.2 cation extraction or other per mass tests for micros, this NCDA style will be problematic to work with

I like the style of that report but it could be tweaked for our container soils.

I'm working on a customized recycled container soil Mehlich 3 report.

Wish list:

Bulk density
Volumetric reporting mg/L and meq/100cm3
A better boron test. The Mehlich is dicey on this one.
Additional micros, Si,Mo,Co,Se, etc
SLAN levels graph and reccomendations
Customer selected BCSR target ratios recommendations
All reccomendations in grams of element/L and grams of common organic ( or Chem) amendments per L
Customer selected target ph.

All we'd have to do is select our goals, send off test and weigh in the grams per L reccomended. Easy

Any feedback on this guys?

biggreg said:

I'm working on a customized recycled container soil Mehlich 3 report.

Wish list:

Bulk density
Volumetric reporting mg/L and meq/100cm3
A better boron test. The Mehlich is dicey on this one.
Additional micros, Si,Mo,Co,Se, etc
SLAN levels graph and reccomendations
Customer selected BCSR target ratios recommendations
All reccomendations in grams of element/L and grams of common organic ( or Chem) amendments per L
Customer selected target ph.

All we'd have to do is select our goals, send off test and weigh in the grams per L reccomended. Easy

Any feedback on this guys?

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I. TITLE: STANDARD OPERATING PROCEDURES FOR MEHLICH 3
EXTRACTION OF SOIL SAMPLES
II. PURPOSE: This SOP defines the general procedures for extracting soil samples with
the Mehlich 3 Extractant.
III. ABSTRACT: This document outlines the general procedures to be followed for
extraction of soil samples using the Mehlich 3 extractant. This procedure
shall be used for the determination of P, K, Ca, Mg, Na and S in soil
samples. The Mehlich 3 extract is composed of 0.2 N acetic acid-0.25 N
NH4NO3-0.015 N NH4F-0.013 N HNO3-0.001 M EDTA.

*I was following the test till it got to the ICP part

ICP Atomic Emission Spectroscopy (ICP-AES) ICP-AES Analysis is a technique that can determine elemental concentrations of trace to major while detecting most elements in the periodic table. Reliable results can be obtained for about 70 elements with detection limits in the parts per billion range.

* found a video on youtube under
The Principles of ICP MS
Agilent Technologies
*very interesting demo

Forms of Essential Elements Taken up by Plants

Element Abbreviation Form absorbed
Nitrogen N NH4+ (ammonium) and NO3- (nitrate)
Phosphorus P H2PO4- and HPO4-2 (orthophosphate)
Potassium K K+
Sulfur S SO4-2(sulfate)
Calcium Ca Ca+2
Magnesium Mg Mg+2
Iron Fe Fe+2 (ferrous) and Fe+3 (ferric)
Zinc Zn Zn+2
Manganese Mn Mn+2
Molybdenum Mo MoO4-2 (molybdate)
Copper Cu Cu+2
Boron B H3BO3 (boric acid) and H2BO3- (borate)

Liebig's Law of the Minimum, often simply called Liebig's Law or the Law of the Minimum, is a principle developed in agricultural science by Carl Sprengel (1828) and later popularized by Justus von Liebig. It states that growth is controlled not by the total amount of resources available, but by the scarcest resource (limiting factor).

In my head i keep calling it the Insane Clown Posse machine because I never remember what ICP stands for. I really annoy myself sometimes

The custom test im going to order


Essential Nutrients
There are 15 essential elements that plants must have in order to grow properly.

18 Essential Nutrients

Nutrient elements obtained from atmosphere through photosynthesis
Hydrogen
Carbon
Oxygen

Nutrient elements obtained from the soil
Nitrogen
Phosphorus
Potassium
Sulfur
Magnesium
Calcium
Iron
Boron
Manganese
Zinc
Molybdenum
Copper

*
cobalt,
chlorine
nickel

acespicoli said:

Forms of Essential Elements Taken up by Plants

Element Abbreviation Form absorbed
Nitrogen N NH4+ (ammonium) and NO3- (nitrate)
Phosphorus P H2PO4- and HPO4-2 (orthophosphate)
Potassium K K+
Sulfur S SO4-2(sulfate)
Calcium Ca Ca+2
Magnesium Mg Mg+2
Iron Fe Fe+2 (ferrous) and Fe+3 (ferric)
Zinc Zn Zn+2
Manganese Mn Mn+2
Molybdenum Mo MoO4-2 (molybdate)
Copper Cu Cu+2
Boron B H3BO3 (boric acid) and H2BO3- (borate)

Liebig's Law of the Minimum, often simply called Liebig's Law or the Law of the Minimum, is a principle developed in agricultural science by Carl Sprengel (1828) and later popularized by Justus von Liebig. It states that growth is controlled not by the total amount of resources available, but by the scarcest resource (limiting factor).

Click to expand...

Yes. If you're low on one, don't matter if you have luxury levels of the others.