Rooted but stunted yellowing clones

f-e · Feb 23, 2019

Looks a bit like sodium to, but cuttings, with there lack of growth, can exhibit signs in ways we don't always expect. I'm not going to chase after the specific correction though, because this is hydro and your food should work.

I think your deficiency is a lack of food. Week one is listed as 900ppm and your using 200. I have tried peoples ideas about no or low food, and this is the result I find. You can't grow new tissue at 200ppm. I start rooting with around 500 and that's increases the moment I see significant growth. Take one of your cuttings, and feed it 600. You will see I'm right. Or that one gets over fed. It's worth risking a sacrifice.

Bobby Boucher · Feb 23, 2019

Yeah, take any advice you get from me with a handful of salt. These guys would know a hell of a lot better than I do.

slownickel · Feb 23, 2019

Cut one open length wise. They are all full of rot. You got no callus.

TanzanianMagic · Feb 23, 2019

colo720 said:
Let me know if you can't see these:

OG Kush:
[URL=https://www.icmag.com/ic/attachment.php?attachmentid=486649&thumb=1]View Image[/url]

GG:
[URL=https://www.icmag.com/ic/attachment.php?attachmentid=486650&thumb=1]View Image[/url]

OG Kush Mom
[URL=https://www.icmag.com/ic/attachment.php?attachmentid=486651&thumb=1]View Image[/url]

1. The mom looks great, the tips have a nice bronze-green color and there is no middle or lower leaf damage, however she needs a little extra magnesium.

2. The small plants in rockwool have magnesium deficiency, and need more P/K. They likely also have a pH that is too high.

Were the rockwool cubes flushed? They sometimes still have lime in them.

Everything looks like a pH that is too high. I would check that out, and then give them a low dose of bloom food, so they can grow some extra roots. That way, they will pull through.

colo720 · Feb 23, 2019

Ok, interesting comments and I appreciate them. I think there is a very good chance the problem is underfeeding. I just gave those that needed some water flora nova grow at 500ppm. I hope they green up and start growing.

as far as callus and rot - i didn't think so because they're growing roots but i went ahead and sacrificed an OG that wasn't looking good anyway, and those pictures are below. this was a classic example of regular rooting time but discolored stunted growth ontop. You can see in the picture the stem dissected is white and healthy looking

colo720 · Feb 23, 2019

TanzanianMagic said:
1. The mom looks great, the tips have a nice bronze-green color and there is no middle or lower leaf damage, however she needs a little extra magnesium.

2. The small plants in rockwool have magnesium deficiency, and need more P/K. They likely also have a pH that is too high.

Were the rockwool cubes flushed? They sometimes still have lime in them.

Everything looks like a pH that is too high. I would check that out, and then give them a low dose of bloom food, so they can grow some extra roots. That way, they will pull through.

Thanks:
1. the mom needing magnesium hopefully clears up with flora nova grow
2. yes the 6" rock wool cubes were drenched, then flushed with nutrient water 5.5ph, per grodan instructions
3. the trusty ph pen i keep hydrated and clean. i'll re-check calibration but it hasn't been long and i have two of these pens, and they're typically spot on
4. ok on light bloom food

Bobby Boucher · Feb 23, 2019

I've found that some batches of rockwool need more flushing than others.

Never had any problems with it, until I did. I won't touch it anymore purely out of spite. Retains too much water and the alkalinity can be unpredictable, ime.

Oasis cubes, ftw.

colo720 · Feb 23, 2019

i don't flush the 1.5" a-ok starters, never have, grodan instructs they don't hold enough lime so they don't need to be flushed, but definitely the 6" get flushed.

so i'm still trying to figure out why the clones, from the beginning, get yellow and stunted. you guys think primarily because lack of nutrients? Not carbon monoxide?

Bobby Boucher · Feb 24, 2019

Sticking a fresh clone in another area of your house would seem to be the next logical step to make sure there isn't something toxic building up in your current cloning area.

Have you tried using rock wool from a separate sku? Knowing that it wasn't flushed sends up some red flags, manufacturers instructions be damned. Coulda been contaminated with who knows what kinda bug bomb or exhaust fumes in storage or transit..

Did you usually get some yellowing in the before time? I over-lit my clones for years and always had some pretty severe yellowing before they acclimated. As soon as I reduced the lighting, my plants decided to stay true green til flush, or until demands started to go wonky in flower. My clones stay in semi-opaque containers with opaque lids about a foot away from a single 2' t5. They hardly get any light. They root much more quickly and densely than they ever did under direct lighting, and they never ever yellow.

Have you also checked the floor temps of the clone cab? Cold floors can set you back like that.

slownickel · Feb 24, 2019

Cutting to see the callus

Cutting to see the callus

Here is the way you need to look for the callus. It is on the bottom. Note the rot from the lack of the closure aka callus, where the roots should mainly form.

TanzanianMagic · Feb 24, 2019

colo720 said:
i don't flush the 1.5" a-ok starters, never have, grodan instructs they don't hold enough lime so they don't need to be flushed, but definitely the 6" get flushed.

https://www.icmag.com/ic/attachment.php?attachmentid=486650

This seedling is in a 1.5 inch starter, and it has the high pH symptoms.

Maybe you caught a bad batch? I would take care of that first.

If it's a lockout and not underfeeding, if you increase feeding now it only gets worse because of overfeeding and toxic levels of nutrient buildup.

You can test for the lime in the rockwool cubes by soaking them in some filtered water, pH it to 6.0, and see what it does to the pH of the water after a couple of hours.

colo720 · Feb 24, 2019

Bobby Boucher said:
Sticking a fresh clone in another area of your house would seem to be the next logical step to make sure there isn't something toxic building up in your current cloning area.

Have you tried using rock wool from a separate sku?

Did you usually get some yellowing in the before time?

Have you also checked the floor temps of the clone cab? Cold floors can set you back like that.

1. Yes, now I have clones going in two areas to test if the room next to the furnace is a problem.
2. overnight the CO detector did not go off, apparently the isn't a CO problem at least for humans
3. Yes i've used starter cubes from other SKUs, this problem has been going on for months, over many packages of starter cubes. i haven't had yellowing issues before.
4. clones aren't on the floor, always on shelves, temps are good

colo720 · Feb 24, 2019

TanzanianMagic said:
https://www.icmag.com/ic/attachment.php?attachmentid=486650

This seedling is in a 1.5 inch starter, and it has the high pH symptoms.

Maybe you caught a bad batch? I would take care of that first.

If it's a lockout and not underfeeding, if you increase feeding now it only gets worse because of overfeeding and toxic levels of nutrient buildup.

You can test for the lime in the rockwool cubes by soaking them in some filtered water, pH it to 6.0, and see what it does to the pH of the water after a couple of hours.

1. It certainly could be that grodan's 1.5 a-ok should be rinsed these days, and its no big deal to take that extra step after soaking them.
2. i can do that ph test later

colo720 · Feb 25, 2019

Problem is not ph of cubes, i balanced a small amount of water to 6.0, dropped 8 starter cubes in, and no change in ph

TanzanianMagic · Feb 25, 2019

colo720 said:
Problem is not ph of cubes, i balanced a small amount of water to 6.0, dropped 8 starter cubes in, and no change in ph

Cool, that's good to know.

An alternative explanation is that it is a combination of lack of magnesium and lightburn.

Magnesium being mobile would explain the lower leaf damage moving up the plant, and lightburn would explain the chlorosis at the top of the plant.

The damage is to the top of the plants, which is why a high pH is the first to go to, because that locks out non-mobile nutrients (iron, zink, etc.) which show up in the growing tips first.

Damage could also be done to the top of the plants by the lights themselves.

1. The lights could be too close to the plants. This can create too high a temperature at the leaf level, especially when the general room temperature is also high - temps under the lights are always higher than the general room temperature.

2. The relative humidity may be too low, which can also scorch the plants because they can't repair the damage quickly enough.

3. And also, just to make sure, check the underside of the most affected leaves and see if there are any irregularities, especially with a magnifying glass if available. Some insects are very small. Of Mildew only the chasmothecia or fruiting bodies may be visible, and look like very small insect eggs.

https://www.icmag.com/ic/attachment.php?attachmentid=486650&d=1550860542

I don't know what the small specs are on the leaf, they could be water?

colo720 · Feb 28, 2019

update: now i'm just standing by watching new clones, 5 days since taken. still very green and praying, these 1.5" rockwool starter cubes soaked in 400ppm flora nova grow. so far so good. clones in both old room near furnace and room with moms. will post pic's around day 10 or when roots, or anything to report.

genesis129 · Feb 28, 2019

Tanzanian Magic . Could you post some pictures of what you are describing below? Would this also produce a slight twisting with new growth?

"Of Mildew only the chasmothecia or fruiting bodies may be visible, and look like very small insect eggs."

TanzanianMagic · Feb 28, 2019

genesis129 said:
Tanzanian Magic . Could you post some pictures of what you are describing below? Would this also produce a slight twisting with new growth?

"Of Mildew only the chasmothecia or fruiting bodies may be visible, and look like very small insect eggs."

Sure, when the fruiting body of mildew fungi is transparent, they look like small insect eggs. They then dry up, turn black, and release the spores.

Mildew in all stages.

https://www.apsnet.org/edcenter/intropp/LabExercises/Pages/PowderyMildew.aspx

https://www.apsnet.org/edcenter/intropp/LabExercises/PublishingImages/PowderyMildewcleistothecia.jpg

colo720 · Feb 28, 2019

TanzanianMagic said:
Cool, that's good to know.

I don't know what the small specs are on the leaf, they could be water?

1. The small specs on the leaf are from Anchora dips, to make sure that cutting brought in from outside my garden stays clean. I don't have any powdery mildew or mites in any part of the garden, and haven't for over a year.
2. rH is good - it is 40-60% inside the room and inside the humid dome much higher, perhaps 90%, the walls of the humid dome are lined with condensation.
3. lights are 12" away from top of humid dome
4. they've been scoped, are clean

TanzanianMagic · Mar 2, 2019

colo720 said:
1. The small specs on the leaf are from Anchora dips, to make sure that cutting brought in from outside my garden stays clean. I don't have any powdery mildew or mites in any part of the garden, and haven't for over a year.
2. rH is good - it is 40-60% inside the room and inside the humid dome much higher, perhaps 90%, the walls of the humid dome are lined with condensation.
3. lights are 12" away from top of humid dome
4. they've been scoped, are clean

The last thing I can think of, is that that combination of 90% humidity and high temperature was too much for the clones.

90% is too much, even for clones. Especially if your RH is about 50%, they might not need any extra humidity in the humidity dome at all. And need a little extra airflow.

I think that's it.

Rooted but stunted yellowing clones

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