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Old 05-12-2018, 09:38 AM #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aridbud View Post
Very few plants in the plant kingdom spread laterally instead of vertically (depth). Plants (cannabis included) reach down deep to get their sustenance, water.
First off thanks to everyone for participating in the discussion!

From Hygrozyme Site:

There are predominately 2 main types of root systems: taproot and fibrous.

Dicots form a taproot system which consists of one main root, called the taproot. A taproot grows vertically into the growing medium and is usually deep-rooted. It is supported by smaller branch roots that grow from it.

Monocots form a fibrous root system and does not have a main root. The roots are thinner and grow closer to the surface of the growing medium.

Although cannabis plants are dicots, they can develop both root systems

Source:
https://www.hygrozyme.com/resources/root-system-types/

Dicot Taproot Systems offer the best wind resistance, where Monocot root systems are prone to being blown over.

Plants grown from clones form Monocot fibrous root systems and do not have a taproot. This makes sense because clones need relatively high moisture and moderate warmth to root, which are conditions you would find in an equatorial forest with frequent rain.

Why waste time sending a tap root to search for water first if there is abundant rain water available close to the surface to use for growth immediately?
(lets not forget environment affects phenotype expression...meaning identical clones with the same dna (genotype) can express as totally different plants depending on environment)

Ive pruned off inner sucker branches from my plants in 12/12 and let them fall naturally on the soil surface of the pots and watered, surprised to find upright rooted clones growing all over around 7 days later on their own.

Imho i feel like the home environment (of the parent strains) has a massive influence on root system development.

Remember water takes the path of least resistance and likes to channel. similar to how taproots grow...

Landrace strains that grow in dry environments usually form long Dicot taproot systems to chase water channels first, and landrace strains that grow in areas with frequent rains skip the water searching phase and form Monocot shallow thick fibrous root systems to make use of as much water as possible ASAP focusing on growth immediately.
(^this also helps make sense why some people say clones grow faster)

From Silverback's Cannabis Root Systems icmag Thread:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Silverback View Post
There is virtually no tested information that I can find on cannabis root systems so I thought I would relay the anectdotal knowledge that I have learned about this aspect of OD cannabis growing.

Just a foreword, this topic can be very important to OD growers but is seldom considered when planning a grow. Those growing in containers can make a fatal decision to choose a strain with agressive roots or plant a full indica in a low lying area where their intolerace of excessive moisture around their roots is quickly observed. Some sativa's however, don't seem to have any concern at all with occasionally soaked soil. Knowing the characteristics of the roots can be very important.

Just as a general rule, most of the strains I have grown have had small to moderate root systems and I feel most strains probably fall into that category. By small, I mean they would easily fit into a 2-3 gallon container without really binding up. Moderate root development fits in about a 5 gallon bucket, even though they exceed the buckets width latterally, they easily fit if soil is removed.
There are certainly exceptions to these generalizations, and as many as there are strains I suspect.

100%-90% indicas and afghanis. - Although there are some big full indicas, many are compact with small root systems. Single colas, small statured branched plants under 4-5' dont have lots of weight to support ,dont suffer wind damage easily as they are not high profile and make great container plants and grow well outdoors in areas that don't have deep soil. I have one site where at 10" a clank is heard when one hits the solid rock shelf. These plants tolerate this condition well and grow without any problems there. Anytime big roots could be a problem, these are the strains to look at.

100%-90% Sativa's. - My experience with full sativas is less but I do believe that sativa root systems are somewhat dependent upon the point of origination of the native parent strains. I have come to believe that equatorial sativas have a wide snowshoe type of system but not necessarily a big tap root. Many don't have huge yields or weighty buds and even though they may grow tall, they don't offer much resistance to the eliments.
I think there is another group that originates further from the equator that shows variation in root systems depending on climate and rainfall and often do express a significant tap root. I know that Mexican sativa has a very different root system than columbian.

Hybrids: This category of plants have root systems that are all over the board and unfortunately, this is what many of us are growing. They range from KC-33 which has an agressive vigorous root sytem that can send a tap root to 4' and if it does blow over, roots just develop on the side of the root ball and the plant takes off again, contrasted against Early Riser, which has picked up an indica yield in the cross, but posseses a typical equatorial sativa root system that has difficulty supporting the heavy indica flower development that is wasnt intended to support and blows over in the wind easily and doesn't recover well.
Hybrid crosses can result in any combination of traits from the parents. While smaller statured hybrids still seem to have smaller root systems, there are some big yielding plants with small root systems that won't handle drought or wind, and some big strains with little yield with a deeper tap root than normal. There can be a lot of variation in root structure in the larger hybrids.

Generally, it seems to me that the biggest, deepest root systems come from hybrids where both parents were big and the growth is sativa dominated. These strains seem to have the wide lateral aspect from the sativa but the tap root that came with the big indica has also been hybridized and is exaggerated in size. It is impossible to know what kind of root development will be seen with mixed breeds such as 4 ways or crossed hybrids as they can recieve traits from any or all of the parents in the line.

I dig up roots as I use the same holes year after year. I think the lateral roots are probably there spreading out to the width of the plant or to the "drip line", just hairlike and not really visible. In fact, Ive seen some sativa strains that have a shallow, very fine mass of roots up to 4' in diameter but extending into the soil no more than a foot, with no real tap root at all. As far as your plants blowing over with yield weight, that may be a result of breeding/strain. You wouldn't believe the number of strains I have abandoned due to that one effect.


I think the greatest tap root size is seen in large, sativa dominated growth for an sativa/indica hybrid. Ive found these strains to have a wide variety of root systems from shallow and wide to deep rooted plants. I have often considered that soil conditions may have a great impact on the extensiveness of any root system simply because of the fact that when i plant a very big strain, the root system will be similar to the other large annual native weeds that grow around them and many of them extend well beyond 2' deep. I have one location in a river bottom that floods each winter and drops 6" of new sandy rich topsoil. The earth is black, soft and full of earthworms. Ive grown numerous strains in the area, but only those large sativa/indicas will thrive. Every other category blows over in the soft black dirt.

I don't think too many people grow big plants anymore. As i often grow in single plant sites, I find them advantageous to grow. They're different in a number of respects, including root systems.

I used to believe that variation was limited to large sativa/indica
hybrids but i grew 2 strains last year that had no tap root. None.
These were small statured indica's, but most cannabis i believe does have a tap root even if small.


Its really one of the reasons that i believe most growers would benefit greatly from finding a few strains they like and then comming to know the strain and its characteristics, rather than growing one unfamiliar strain after another. I have found it takes about 4-5 years of growing a strain to really learn how it will respond under any given condition and what its real attributes are.

Ive seen lots of variation in roots systems over the winter. The roots of the sour bubble i grew fillled up every inch of the pot, regardless of the size pot. The massive roots on sb dont transfer into plant health as sour bubble is weakish and freakish.

the joeys Sugarberry was a much larger plant than sour b, but had a much smaller root system and didnt crowd its containter at all.

I transplanted sensi star, white Rhino and Great white shark all on the same day, and a week later the shark roots were hanging out of the pot while the other 2 strains had no problems."
Quote:
Originally Posted by neongreen View Post
"Perhaps not the most huge of plants, but still a fair size (8ft and 9ft), these two Rombolts I grew in 2013 were in newly dug/amended beds that I had dug down to 4-5ft and removed any sizable stones from:



Here are the roots I dug up, and they only went down 1-1.5ft - no obvious primary tap-root to speak of.



I don't know why the roots wouldn't want to get bigger/go deeper for sure, but it could well be because they were all started in containers or because they were not allowed to get too dry (although I have always tried to keep watering to a minimum)."
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikell View Post
Wish I had the article in easy reach, but most hemp research concludes that roughly 80% of the root mass will reside in the top 12 inches of soil. Re: supporting your observations, neon.
Quote:
Originally Posted by wkalb View Post
These weren't grown in large smart pots; 65 gallon pots have a 32" diameter. But thought this comparison might help someone.

super lemon haze I harvested last fall. Root ball mass was roughly 18" across. Small diameter feeder roots extended to the edge of the 65 gallon smart pot, but the bulk of the root ball was fairly unimpressive.

the panama Root ball mass extended most of the way to the edge of the 65 gallon smart pot (~28 inches). A bit more like what I expected, but still not as big as I imagined it would be.

SLH canopy was 5'-ish wide and the Panama was right at 4.5'.

The SLH yielded ~30% more than the Panama (with a root ball half the size), but that's likely just genetics (bushier plant, more bud sites?).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hoypare. View Post
Outdoor roots.

.

Source:
https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=88368

From Larry Stein, Ph.D, Extension Horticulturist, Department of Horticultural Sciences, Texas AgriLife Extension Service:

So What Constitutes An Effective Rain Event?

Mist, drizzle, fog; dreary, cloudy days, great for fruit tree chilling but does this wee bit of moisture associated with these events have any impact on agriculture? Well, it depends!; just what you wanted to hear!; as usual no cut and dried answer. The key to this dilemma lies in the amount of moisture which falls, the soil type and whether or not the soil is wet or dry. To answer this question we must examine the many, varied soil types.

Most soils are composed of varying amounts of sand, loam and clay. Soils with a lot of sand are called sandy soils and those with more clay are clay soils and of course there are many variations in between. The most ideal soil for most plants would be a sandy loam, as it takes and hold some water, but has ample oxygen as well. It is critical to remember that the only way plants can take up water is if there is oxygen present in the soil.[/b] Sands allows for rapid water infiltration, but they hold very little water. So typically sandy soils take in water, but hold very little and plants will dry out very quickly. Loams do not take water as fast as sands, but hold more water which can be used by plants for growth. Finally, clay soils take water slowly, so often a lot of water runs off in a heavy rain. Still even though such clay soils hold a lot of water, much of it cannot be extracted for plant growth.

The other soil factor which comes into play is the amount of rock as well as the depth of soil. Some of you have 6 inches of soil sitting on solid rock, others have less and then some have more. So if your soil is shallow, rocky and/or sandy, a small amount of water will penetrate further than on deeper soils.

To get a better understanding of water infiltration you have to know a little about soil physics. Soil physics tells one that soil must be totally wet before the water moves. So you cannot partially wet the soil, rather the water only penetrates as far as the water wets the soil. This should make sense because just a little bit of moisture (0.1 inches) will wet the soil on top and cause it to stick to your shoes, but go an inch deep and the soil will be bone dry.[/b]

Let’s examine some common infiltration rates for various soils.

Sands take in water faster than loams and clays, if the rainfall rate is 2 inches per hour, the sands will take in quite a bit of water whereas the loam and clay will not. So often times heavy, fast rain events are not effective at re-wetting the soil profile. In most cases much of this water runs off rather than in the soil. By the same token one should realize that when the rain does not infiltrate the soil and runs off, the place of “ponding” will experience a much larger rain event. Bottomland is a prime example. Farmers today actually put small berms or dikes in their fields to increase water infiltration so that rain events will more effectively wet their soils.

The other thing you have to remember is how far an inch of water (from rain or a sprinkler, etc.) will wet the soil. One inch of water that does not run off will wet the soil 12 inches deep; but it will take more water to wet a loam, 1.5 to 2.0 inches and even more, 2.5 inches to wet a clay; and again this is assuming that no water runs off. The mist, drizzle and showers which often amount to a quarter of an inch or less obviously do not run off and so the water has wet into the soil, the only problem is that in most cases the soil is only wet a ½ to maybe an inch deep in most cases. Since many areas have not received an inch of water in a long time, the soil profile has continued to dry. There is no question that your soil profile is dry. So if you have a foot of clay soil over rock, you will need to receive 2½ inches of rain where none of the water runs off to re-wet your soil.

The last factor to consider in water infiltration and an effective rain event is how wet the soil is. It should be obvious that a soil which has received a half inch irrigation is easier to wet than one which has not. A ½ inch watering will wet a sandy soil to about 6 inches. This means that only another ½ inch will be required to wet the soil to a foot. Calculations cannot be exact due to losses from evaporation. Still a soil which has been watered will benefit from a quarter to a half inch rain.

Lastly, the best time to water is actually during a rain event, of course if it is raining “cats and dogs” one would not want to water, because the water is already coming so fast that it will run off anyway. But mist and drizzle is a different story. No water will be evaporating since it is raining and the amount you apply along with the mist or drizzle will help wet the soil to a greater depth.

As many of the farmers have remarked, “I used to need a 2 inch rain, but 2 inches will no longer do it.” Rather we need a steady 4 inch rain where the water comes slowly to re-wet many of the different soils. If all we get is a cloud burst, the only places which will get any real benefit will be the places where the water ponds.

Grass is always greener closest to the highway because of water runoff from a hard surface. Perhaps you have noticed how the grass or weeds right beside paved roads or the overhang of buildings greens up in times of severe drought. This is again due to “runoff” of the water. The water does not penetrate the road and hence runs off. This ponding of a tenth or two results in at least a quarter or half inch rain beside the road. As a result the grass and weeds are able to grow. Notice that wildflowers come up and bloom ONLY next to roadways during droughts. Wildflowers can even get enough supplemental moisture from roadways to actually produce seed. The same is true of plants or trees beside the overhang of buildings. The water runs off the roof and is able to effectively wet soil sufficiently at the drip line of the building. So trees beside structures are able to survive better in their droughty times.

So it should be clear that the type and depth of soil along with the amount and speed of the rainfall event will determine just how effective the rain event is at re-wetting the soil profile. Mist and drizzle can be good at times, but in times of severe drought, it does very little.
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open mind leaves room for growth
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Originally Posted by slownickel View Post
Guy, I have been testing coco for years, right out of the bag. It's all salty.

Suggest you drop the blind faith and use a bit of science.
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Originally Posted by Bud Green View Post
For almost 50 years I've smoked weed to enhance reality, not to escape from it...
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Originally Posted by Ibechillin View Post
Diffused light > Spectrum.
Science Of Lighting & Plant Reactions (Sticky Thread):

https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=358147

Drying and Cure Process Explained In Depth (Sticky Thread):

https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=358186

Pot Size, Root system and maximizing growth thread:

https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=344347

Silicon, The Misunderstood Element:

https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=352413

Humic and Fulvic acid information:

https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=352265


Last edited by Ibechillin; 12-11-2018 at 03:22 PM..
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Old 05-12-2018, 10:34 AM #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thereallenny
I got about 2.5 lbs. per plant last season and I was in 15 gallon plastic containers. All about the genetics for yield and I wouldn't recommend growing in a 15gallon. I had just moved and I have less space so I thought It would keep em small but all it did was not make them huge but still very decent size. Tangie from seed was the strain.
^From t h c f a r m e r.com

keeps blocking link to thread.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AVOH View Post
open mind leaves room for growth
Quote:
Originally Posted by slownickel View Post
Guy, I have been testing coco for years, right out of the bag. It's all salty.

Suggest you drop the blind faith and use a bit of science.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bud Green View Post
For almost 50 years I've smoked weed to enhance reality, not to escape from it...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ibechillin View Post
Diffused light > Spectrum.
Science Of Lighting & Plant Reactions (Sticky Thread):

https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=358147

Drying and Cure Process Explained In Depth (Sticky Thread):

https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=358186

Pot Size, Root system and maximizing growth thread:

https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=344347

Silicon, The Misunderstood Element:

https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=352413

Humic and Fulvic acid information:

https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=352265

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Old 05-12-2018, 02:16 PM #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by petert View Post
Correct. But cloned plants not so much, they do not have a dedicated tap root.
I grow both from seed and clone and there is a difference!
True...being a seed person, that was my frame of mind. And was thinking in ground, not containers.
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Old 05-12-2018, 04:18 PM #34
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I've always followed the theory that wider is more important than deeper... To an extent...

My current outdoor holes were first dug 5 years ago, and were originally about 36 inches across and 18 to 20 inches deep.
The sides were dug fairly straight down... So they were originally about 65 to 75 gallons..

Each year, I dig them a little wider and they are currently about 48 to 54 inches across.. Same depth..
So they are now approx. 100 to 120 gallons...

My girls average 7 to 9 feet tall and 6 to 7 feet wide...
and usually produce 20 to 32 oz. each..

The root ball is usually the size of the ones in the picture above in post #31

I'm happy with my results..
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Old 05-12-2018, 06:15 PM #35
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Wouldn’t “wider pots” equal “more soil” when compared to traditional containers?

IME, most visible roots seem to stay within 24in of the soil surface no matter the depth of the containers. This is not to say that the roots are 100% contained within this depth but rather an observation based on root visibility at depth. I’m absolutely positive that those micro-fine roots penetrate much deeper, given the opportunity (moisture/O2 content).

I’ve not used any containers larger than about 35-45 gal & they were all relatively deep compared to what is being discussed in this thread. Only thing larger I’ve used is open earth in the ground w root space being limited to that which I could keep well watered.

Roots do not penetrate dry soils.
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Old 05-12-2018, 08:37 PM #36
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I probably did not read carefully but please indulge me. What are you gonna use for soil and do you plan on feeding it or doing living soil?
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Old 05-12-2018, 10:21 PM #37
Ibechillin
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Regardless of the grow style (soil, soiless, hydro) I have noticed another pattern! Its not the amount of roots (as seen in post #31), or the amount of root space (large containers) that increases a plant's speed of growth or potential yield! The amount of foliage is what increase rate of growth and potential yield, this is why Monstercropping creates such vigorous growing plants, multiple main shoots also means more total initial foliage meaning faster growth. Taking larger clones also grow faster after rooting because of the increased foliage size/amount.

After becoming rootbound the plant DOES NOT STOP GROWING, instead its water and nutrient requirements continue increasing exponentially proportionate to the amount of foliage, which is limited only by the amount of available light. Outdoors there is no inverse square law affecting the light coming from the sun, direct sunlight is full power at the top to the very bottom of the plants.

Thank You Tree In Small Pots Coco Growers For helping me to make this realization!




A bulbs advertised max lumen output is measured at a distance of 1 foot (12 inches) away.

A 600w HPS bulb produces 90,000 lumens, it is the about the same brightness as the sun (to human eyes!) at a distance of 1 ft away
only differing in spectrum and UV rays. CMH and Led lights are very close in terms of usable spectrum for plants and have some UV, the increased spectrum and UV help the plant express more diverse terpene and cannabinoid profiles.

UV and other environmental stresses both contribute to trichome production.

From Royalqueenseeds:

"scientists have identified three categories of trichomes found on cannabis plants:

1. Bulbous trichomes
2. Capitate sessile trichomes
3. Capitate-stalked trichomes

It’s number 3, the capitate-stalked variety, that’s of interest to weed lovers because they are the largest at 50-100µm wide and produce the oily medicinal/recreational goodies.

In nature, it is believed, that trichomes facilitate quite a few essential to survival functions of the cannabis plant. The gooey surface coating of sticky resin provides a frontline defence against fungus, insects and hungry herbivores.

Some flies and certain fungi cannot penetrate the trichome barrier, while terpenes will foul the flavour of the lettuce for four-legged furry critters.

Furthermore, trichomes may also play a key role for cannabis growing in difficult climatic conditions. A layer of resin offers wild weed protection against damaging winds from the desert sirocco to the Siberian blizzard.

Trichomes even serve as organic sun block for marijuana plants, protecting them from the effects of UV rays from the sun. We shall explore the relationship between UV and trichomes a little further below.

The relationship between trichomes and light is the key to understanding the immense importance of trichomes. UV light is what gives dank weed the X-factor.

Cannabis plants feed on light and when they receive the optimal spectrum they perform best. Old school outdoor cultivator’s anecdotes about HID cultivated indoor weed lacking sometimes in flavour and in potency have been confirmed by modern science.

Trichomes respond positively to UV rays and it is now believed, that UV light is required for the trichomes to produce certain terpenes and cannabinoids.


Source: Published February 20th, 2017
https://www.royalqueenseeds.com/blog...mportance-n430

Some strains are immune to hermaphrodism, this is a conversation me and a friend had with Sam_Skunkman last June and July 2017:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam_Skunkman View Post
I have found many female individuals that I could not reverse by stress, as well as a few that could not be reversed with STS. Why I do not know for sure.
No new news on tests for intersex be they stress induced or just intersex regardless of the environmental conditions. I am still hoping this will happen soon as the DNA tests for male seem to work fine but to assume all that are not male are female is a big problem when some of the "females" are intersexed and cause the same problems as a real male.

Who wants to have to examine all plants daily to assure the seeds started are true female and not just an intersexed female that DNA tests as a female but is not without problems.

Remember that when you DNA test males and then assume all the other plants are female that will include intersexed and monoecious, they test as Female even if they express more male flowers then female flowers.
-SamS
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Originally Posted by mushroombrew View Post
I have been concerned with the the amount of female pollen chucking going on in the last decade. Well not chucking that's a bit harsh; but prolific use of female pollen. We found out about colloidal and stress techniques in the UK in 1990. But the XX pollen was only used to preserve a female clone in seed form. Not for crosses. I had RKS (skunk#1) and had female seeds for years.
I grow elite clones for the masses. Most will easily throw a few anthers. They pollen stays "hard" for days and they can be easily plucked out.
So is that where we are? How has it become acceptable to have great weed with a few nanners to pluck every round? So someone gets a bagseed form my "gelato" and goes on to grow and clone that compromised genetic material !!
I personally love males. I have had resinous males. And males that stacked flowers like a female.
I get better hybrid vigor from XY pollen. How about you?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ibechillin View Post
I feel you on the prolific use of female pollen and agree totally on only selfing a clone for preservation.

There are breeders like Mr.Nice that only make regular seeds.

The real question is though, after many generations of XX crosses has it been documented and proven the offspring will hermaphrodite indefinitely even in a no stress environment?

Is there any solid evidence of loss of vigor from XX seeds?

Over the last 7 years ive grown out ~30 bagseeds and they have all been female. Of those bagseeds i found 3 of the most vigourous growing plants i have come across.

All 30 of them were flowered and at some point all were stressed by something. Ph issues, reservoir water temp, was on 400ppm well water and getting lockout, heat waves.

Interestingly not one of the bagseed plants ever tryed to hermie, never produced nanners late in bloom, or had any seeds.

In terms of breeding im still skeptical to use femenized pollen, but i have had good experiences this far it seems...
Quote:
Originally Posted by mushroombrew View Post
There is no solid evidence of Loss of vigor etc. as far as I know.
And selfed females do not always herm although I have seen some bad ones.
From a Landrace point of view a group of isolated females could have survived for decades through self pollination/preservation for all we know. And as Sam said some strains can't be reveresed so there is the other end of the spectrum too.
Maybe I am just old school and hence have a low opinion of female seed breeding?
If I have an elite female I want to preserve I cross in something very phenotypically different that I still consider good quality. Then I make F2's to "fracture" the phenotypes. I usually get a male with strong mother traits at this point. Cross him back to mommy. With patience and a few crosses back to mommy we get very close to the original clone.
Then, if we can be bothered, line breed to stabilize. Now we have close to the original clone with a butt load of vigor.
But that is a two year deal...
I don't think there is a right and wrong perspective on XX pollen. And I am staying open minded.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ibechillin View Post
Its surprising to realize some landrace strains literally could be derived from decades of hermanphrodism. Crazy to think its technically an evolutionary advantage in terms of survival in harsh environments Or maybe tropical sativa plants like Thai do it naturally not because of stress but to take advantage of the perfect growing environment? I didnt know some strains could not be reversed, that is vital information.

Theoretically in breeding plants with XX pollen if somewhere in the lineage of the plant(s) used is the trait immunity to reversing, some of the offspring could be immune to reversing as well.

This would most likely explain my luck with the ~30 bagseeds.

Are there different triggers for hermanphrodism in different landraces i wonder?

Like of all the landraces that can reverse, are some only prone to under certain conditions like drought or heat or just stress in general depending on thier home environment?

From my reading heat seems to be the main cause of selfing, but ive also seen torure chamber grows in hot closets of bagseeds that do just fine...a good friend of mine being one lol.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam_Skunkman View Post
Selfing to S4 will cause inbreeding loss of vigor and many buried negative genes will be expressed, try for S5 or S6 and you are lucky to get functional pollen Dehiscence, I find sticky pollen that is viable but does not drop, so it is functionally sterile. You can use it with a q-tip if careful. I try to not make above S3's. It is hard to use STS to make all female copies of a female clone specially if a Poly-Multi-Hybrid, a selfed female clone of that type will segregate and act as an F2 population. So very hard to find one just like the clone mother.
-SamS
More Recent Information On The Subject From Febuary/March 2018:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam_Skunkman View Post
We found that any female clones that can not be stressed to express intersex flowers are unlikely to produce progeny that express intersex flowers. I am not referring to STS as a stress, it alters sex expression temporarily, it does not alter the genes.

We also found that using a Thai female clone that does express intersex flowers even without stress, when we used the pollen from the intersex flowers, they also produced all females and almost all were expressing intersex flowers, not surprising as like begets like.

We also found that a selfed single plant will lose vigor as it is inbred, each generation is worse and by S3 or S4 the plant will have serious problems like being functionally sterile, the pollen does not dehiscence it is just to sticky and while viable it must be collected with a Q-tip or another way to be used for pollination.

You can easily avoid the inbreeding by using two different varieties, one as the transformed pollen source and one the clone to be pollinated.
-SamS
Quote:
Originally Posted by Natural high View Post
Hi Sam. Are you talking about regular/feminised breeding here or selfing? Selfing can expose recessive genes which would otherwise stay hidden even under stress..
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam_Skunkman View Post
I was talking about both, selfing and using transformed females to male for pollen to use on a completely different female variety. I did not see intersex problems with selfing a single plant or making S4 from a single plant line, the S4 were all screwed up from inbreeding and loss of vigor and resistance but we did not see intersex problems. As long as the females used were not found to express intersex if tested with all kinds of stress.
-SamS
Does A Male Or Female Pass On More Genetics To Their Offspring?: From February 2018

Link To Thread:
https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=350271

Quote:
Originally Posted by VenturaHwy View Post
White Fire is a famous cross. Fire Og female x (reversed female) The White. Would it be the same if the other way around? It would be a great test. Natural males are an unknown factor (crap shoot) since they don't grow buds.
Quote:
Originally Posted by oldbootz View Post
One way to test this is to take 2 stable but non related varieties (A and B). Take 2 clones off one female plant from one variety (A) and 2 clones off of another female from the other variety (B). Take 1 clone from each variety and reverse them onto the other variety (A-reversed x B, B-reversed x A). This way we will find out of there is some natural process that is different when DNA is donated via pollen or in the calyx.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Natural high View Post
It makes absolutely no difference which parent in a cross is male and which is female. The genetic potential of the offspring is the same either way. The only practical difference is the resultant seed size may vary depending on which parent is the female, and this is due to the size of the calyx on the female.

The phenotypes seen in the offspring from any cross or pollination are the result of the dominant alleles inherited from each parent.


Hope this helps.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Natural high View Post
I've done the double reverse and there was no difference in the offspring phenotypes as expected. The one difference was that seed size from the cross was different due to the maternal parents having considerably different sized calyx.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam_Skunkman View Post
you can cross two female or cross two males by transforming one to the opposite sex, a transformed female clone to male will express pollen but it is still genetically a female, the same with males they can be transformed to female to make seeds.

Transforming males to a female will also allowing smoking of the male transformed to female expression or lab testing of the cannabinoids and terpenes they can contribute to progeny.

Regardless if the female is Haze or Skunk the f1 hybrids express the same general terpene and Cannabinoids, I have made hundreds and tested them.

There may be sex linked traits but this has not been proven in Cannabis.


Intersexed plants can be male or female. Males that are intersex can make seeds on themselves or on nearby plants.

One last point is plants do not just turn intersex because they have not been pollinated, they are born with the intersex traits, be they XY intersex or intersex traits that require stress of some sort to express the intersex. Both are inherited from intersex parents.

People confuse dominate and recessive genes with what a plant recieves from the parents, but do a prunett square with two palnts that have dominate and recessive genes for the same gene and you will see progeny have a crap shoot on what they receive. Depending on what the parents have Ww X Rr for example in the case of White and Red.

Plant genetics like Cannabis can be confusing as Cannabis is a dioecious obligate outcrosser and is a bit special. (90% of all flowering plants on earth have both sex, the remaining 10 percent have unisexual male and female flowers on the same plant (monoecious species) or male and female flowers on separate plants (dioecious species) they are the minority. Cannabis is one of the minority it is dioecious.
-SamS


Information On Isolating Cannabinoids Through Selfing

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam_Skunkman View Post
I used Durban Poison as one of the 4 parents we used to create a THCV only variety 20 years ago, the THCV was not so high, only 1-2% but it was there. I also used a Thai, an Afghan and Calif Orange, they also had small amounts of THCV. after 4 years of seperately selfing these lines which raised the THCV %'s they were combined to make our THCV variety. To be clear the THCV % of the 4 parent lines were low in THCV, 1-2%, after selfing several years and combining the 4 parental lines we knocked that up to more then 10% with little to no other Cannabinoids. We also did that for CBC, CBG, CBDV, CBCV, CBGV, THCV, etc....I developed a THCV variety from scratch that was over 10% and with almost no THC more then a decade before this. We licensed the variety to GW Pharmaceuticals.
-SamS
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open mind leaves room for growth
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Guy, I have been testing coco for years, right out of the bag. It's all salty.

Suggest you drop the blind faith and use a bit of science.
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For almost 50 years I've smoked weed to enhance reality, not to escape from it...
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Originally Posted by Ibechillin View Post
Diffused light > Spectrum.
Science Of Lighting & Plant Reactions (Sticky Thread):

https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=358147

Drying and Cure Process Explained In Depth (Sticky Thread):

https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=358186

Pot Size, Root system and maximizing growth thread:

https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=344347

Silicon, The Misunderstood Element:

https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=352413

Humic and Fulvic acid information:

https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=352265


Last edited by Ibechillin; 12-11-2018 at 03:38 PM..
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Old 05-12-2018, 10:33 PM #38
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From t h c f a r m e r.com Trees in a small pot thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chrondondalae
well i thought we were talking trees here ended up with 2.25 in a 5 gallon grow bag on that one. botanicare readygro moisture mix feeding 4x daily.





i screwed up and left one of the control box timers on 20/4 at 12/12 flip. took me two weeks to catch it and had to role with it and an extra two weeks of veg. plants got huge, trimmed em up big time and got rid of a third of the plants. funny thing is got one of my best yields yet on that room. i usually use 10 gallon smart pots for plants that size.

probably around 6-8 weeks veg from clone.
11 days to go

40/60 canna coco/perlite fed 4x daily

h16,prime and massive then hh/moab week 7 and 8. all sorts of other little things along the way. on EJ grande finale, h16 prime and cannazyme at the moment
.
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Originally Posted by AVOH View Post
open mind leaves room for growth
Quote:
Originally Posted by slownickel View Post
Guy, I have been testing coco for years, right out of the bag. It's all salty.

Suggest you drop the blind faith and use a bit of science.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bud Green View Post
For almost 50 years I've smoked weed to enhance reality, not to escape from it...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ibechillin View Post
Diffused light > Spectrum.
Science Of Lighting & Plant Reactions (Sticky Thread):

https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=358147

Drying and Cure Process Explained In Depth (Sticky Thread):

https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=358186

Pot Size, Root system and maximizing growth thread:

https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=344347

Silicon, The Misunderstood Element:

https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=352413

Humic and Fulvic acid information:

https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=352265

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Old 05-13-2018, 12:01 AM #39
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I would not compare indoor vs outdoor as far as potter size is concernd. Out door you have no control over tempsnor wind there for small iragated potters would be desasteris.my two cents
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Old 05-13-2018, 02:51 AM #40
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Some Information on Evaporation:

Sprinklers waste 30 to 50 percent of water through evaporation and other factors. Water from sprinklers evaporates before it reaches the ground and from the soil surface. Sprinklers also cause runoff and apply water where it isn't needed. To reduce water wastage, irrigate with sprinklers only when the soil is dry so that water soaks in immediately, or install soil moisture sensors if the system is automatic. Rain sensors prevent systems from turning on during or after rainfall. Sprinklers are a poor choice for vegetable gardens and bedding plants because they encourage leaf diseases.

Drip irrigation devices sit on the soil surface and don't spray, which minimizes evaporation. Soaker hoses, drip tape and networks of mainline tubing and emitters are all forms of drip irrigation. Water seeps out of soaker hoses and drip tape through fibrous material or small holes, and emitters drip water at a fixed rate. Systems operate through automatic timers or manually and are up to 90 percent water efficient. To reduce evaporation from the soil surface when using drip irrigation, spread a 3-inch layer of coarse mulch, such as wood chips or shredded bark. Garden compost and other fine mulches can block drip irrigation holes.

Hand watering Losing little water to evaporation, hand watering is more efficient than automatic irrigation with timers. Households that water with watering cans and garden hoses use 33 percent less water outdoors than homes with automatic sprinklers or drip irrigation systems. To reduce evaporation when watering with a hose, attach a water breaker nozzle and a wand extension. Water breakers allow gardeners to turn hoses off when moving between plants, and wand extensions apply water directly at plant bases. Watering cans with long necks and fine rose sprays also reduce evaporation by applying water slowly to plant bases, reducing runoff and evaporation from the soil surface.

Source: https://homeguides.sfgate.com/type-i...on-100415.html
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by AVOH View Post
open mind leaves room for growth
Quote:
Originally Posted by slownickel View Post
Guy, I have been testing coco for years, right out of the bag. It's all salty.

Suggest you drop the blind faith and use a bit of science.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bud Green View Post
For almost 50 years I've smoked weed to enhance reality, not to escape from it...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ibechillin View Post
Diffused light > Spectrum.
Science Of Lighting & Plant Reactions (Sticky Thread):

https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=358147

Drying and Cure Process Explained In Depth (Sticky Thread):

https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=358186

Pot Size, Root system and maximizing growth thread:

https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=344347

Silicon, The Misunderstood Element:

https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=352413

Humic and Fulvic acid information:

https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=352265


Last edited by Ibechillin; 08-04-2018 at 05:28 AM.. Reason: added information on watering and evaporation.
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