[rollinfunk]

These are broad leaf crosses in Seed in would recommend...I would go Bodhi, Coastal, CSi in seed form. Coastal has an NL#1 male crossed to some super old afghanis...puck hashplant, black domina, roumlan, 4-way...and Bodhi has (88G13xHP) x NL#1, Old Mama Ghani, Kashmir maybe a few other Full indica males. He has a line called deep line alchemy that are all afghanis crossed together for high yielding hash...CSI has super stable reversals with Bubba Kush, Humboldt Snow, Mendo Purple Kush.

I've grown CSI and Bodhi and they were fire

All those males or reversals are hit to other full afhanis

[JohnnyChicago]

Originally Posted by Mustafunk

We need more humble and honest people on the scene, not fake breeders cashing on other people's legacy and doing anything for the money. We shouldn't be supporting and contributing to this kind of practices... so tired of watching other people cashing on other's legacy with absolute disrespect and no consequences. There is always a good option or better way to do things. Customer should be more responsible as well but many people only wants the product, they don't care what's behind it.

He's selling the Black Afghani or Black Kandahar for 25 dollar. That's not what I call cashing. He made these landrace genetics available to everyone for only 15-20$. Most of the breeders, pollenchuckers, genetics stealers or seedsellers would not even consider selling seeds for such a small profit.

For me seeds of landraces are the property of the land and the farmers/people who live there and not of the persons who went there to collect seeds in order to patent in the US/EU or not. If this Black Kandahar is not what we consider a landrace, then it's another story.

[GoatCheese]

Originally Posted by wdcf

Title says it all folks... want to do a little breeding project. Most Landrace indica have short flowering times from the start... So which strain, which is easily obtainable would you recommend?

Right now I am thinking World of Seeds Afghan Kush, while it's technically not a landrace, it's two landraces blended together, so I will give it a pass.

Please let me know your thoughts. Thanks!

WOS's Afghan Kush has two varieties in it??! I have never heard this one before, are you sure?

According to WOS it was originally collected in North Afghanistan. They say nothing about combining two landrace lines.

That said, i think they have done some inbreeding with their Afghan Kush cause the later seeds look abit different than what the older seeds looked like.
...and yea, some plants are very strong, so i recommend people give it a try.

From WOS's website:

World of Seeds Bank - Afgan Kush
We bring to you this Indica Kush, a lineage that has produced many champion strains, from the Hindu Kush mountain range in Northern Afghanistan. This particular strain grows wild in the valleys of the Armu Darya River, which forms the border between Tajikistan and Ukbekistan.
100% pure Indica strain. As different wild Kush varieties grow side-by-side in such a relatively small area, this very stable, is probably the result of multiple interbreeding. A very special hash taste and smell, she’s a very compact and hardy plant. Owing to her potent, relaxing effect, which is not at all cerebral, Afghan Kush is a pure strain with a very high medicinal value.

[GoatCheese]

Originally Posted by Dr. Purpur

Ive heard a lot of good comments about Maple Leaf Indica. I have some in bud now.
I also pollenated a dozen assorted females with some Maple pollen this morning. Standard


I love good Afghani

Hi.
Sensi's MLI isn't actually pure afghani but Sensi Seeds aren't apparently aware of this, cause they seem to be telling the customer it's genetics originated from Mazar-i-Sharif. It actually has some Skunk#1 in it.
Here's Nevil telling what MLI really is:
Q: "..maple leaf indica according to Ed R (same book) is: Female Ortega15 x Sam afghan skunk X male Skunk 18.5. Any idea if this is correct?"

Originally Posted by Nevil

I don't know what Ed is calling Maple leaf.
Ortega 15 was Maple leaf. This was crossed with AfgTx Sk and AfgS x sk males.
AfgT and AfgS were both sisters and pure maple leaf. Maybe Ed thought that AfgS meant Afg(Sam). It doesn't. The hybrid Ed is talking about is 3/4 Maple Leaf.
N.

https://www.mrnice.nl/forum/59005-post21.html

[Dr. Purpur]

Originally Posted by GoatCheese

Hi.
Sensi's MLI isn't actually pure afghani but Sensi Seeds aren't apparently aware of this, cause they seem to be telling the customer it's genetics originated from Mazar-i-Sharif. It actually has some Skunk#1 in it.
Here's Nevil telling what MLI really is:
Q: "..maple leaf indica according to Ed R (same book) is: Female Ortega15 x Sam afghan skunk X male Skunk 18.5. Any idea if this is correct?"

https://www.mrnice.nl/forum/59005-post21.html

LMAO! That was me in that thread too. I forgot that I ran MLI 10 years ago

[Mustafunk]

Originally Posted by JohnnyChicago

He's selling the Black Afghani or Black Kandahar for 25 dollar. That's not what I call cashing. He made these landrace genetics available to everyone for only 15-20$.

For me seeds of landraces are the property of the land and the farmers/people who live there and not of the persons who went there to collect seeds in order to patent in the US/EU or not. If this Black Kandahar is not what we consider a landrace, then it's another story.

Did you feel offended when I've adressed the issue with this comment?:

Customers should be more responsible as well but many people only want the product no matter how, they don't care what's behind it.

For you may be just a matter of a price but that's not the point... $25 or $50 doesn't make any difference, it's about the ethics behind. So because USC is selling the seeds cheap so you can buy them nicely he should be considered a hero, no matter how they ended there? And then we complain about the corrupt system and politicians we have...

On the other hand, those genetics were available for everyone already through the Russian Crew, despite not many people knew from what it seems... I've even seen reports of people growing their hashplants not too long ago here on IC and the guy was even telling people how he acquired them from a Russian website via PM. I got in touch with him and was even able to reconnect with Astronet through the Russian forum thanks to that. They all invested a lot in THC testing for all their strains, electricity and so on, most were in a poverty situation in such a depressed country yet they had a passion for plants and wanted to get some cash flowing to pay their bills, that's why they were originally charging a small amount for seeds. So it's not really about chucking or cashing on something you shouldn't but about being a miserable man. Another thing is when someone sees that as a great chance to obtain a rare strain and make easy money with it.

Last but not least, the Black Kandahar is not an imported landrace, it's a stable line bred and preserved for many years by this Russian Crew. Pretty much like the Deep Chunk Afghan and what Tom Hill did with it. So we are speaking here about someone selling the work from others without permission and without even crediting anyone, even if they were never outcrossed they shouldn't be considered landrace seeds like those sold by RSC and other companies reselling imported P1 seeds. It makes a BIG difference in my opinion but people keep rambling about the same catchphrase "landraces don't belong to anyone" when they obvioulsy can't see the difference between a true landrace and the work of a breeder who maintained his own heirloom or breeding stock for decades after he invested his time in sourcing landrace seeds back then and decided to invest a certain amount of time and dedication in order to improve a cultivar through selective breeding.

This means more breeding/selection work than most of the hybrids we can see nowadays which is basically just random pollen-chucking or hype-clone-selfing. We should remark that big time. But it's the same old story... talented people and pioneers are pushing boundaries for others to take advantage, get the credit or exploit them while they remain forgotten.

But they did and they will continue doing it because there always will be someone willing to pay... likeminded people are encouraging cons to keep doing their thing because they will win no matter what. If growers don't have ethics and have a self-centered approach, seed companies won't have them either. Happens in many other situations as well but at the end of the day everyone is free to do whatever they feel.

Time to move on, this has became a futile and redundant debate.

[Koondense]

Dayum, I wish there were many more posts and posters like Mustafunk...
Thanks a lot for sharing.

Cheers

[JohnnyChicago]

Originally Posted by Mustafunk

Did you feel offended when I've adressed the issue with this comment?:

For you may be just a matter of a price but that's not the point... $25 or $50 doesn't make any difference, it's about the ethics behind. So because USC is selling the seeds cheap so you can buy them nicely he should be considered a hero, no matter how they ended there? And then we complain about the corrupt system and politicians we have...

Im spreading seeds of a repro for free that I did in order to be sure the line gets not lost or the last seeds held by people who won't share them. I did also pay postage fees myself and half of the people who received the seeds did not even say thank you.

Thats how humans are, I do not complain about humans acting like humans. I did what I wanted to do, but Im not sure I would do it again. Selling them would have never been an option.

And no, my hero he is not Like Koondense said: we need more people like you that draw the attention on this kind of things but not every grower reads forums or do research on forums before buying seeds. I did some research but didn't find anything negative and now that I know he is lying Im happy I paid only 25$ and I did not give him 100$+.

[Sam_Skunkman]

Originally Posted by Mustafunk

Sure but we can't deny the fact it's still better than nothing, isn't it? In the case of drug cultivars what we should preserve is the best representation of a landrace or breeding stock according to your own criteria, experience and desires.

If I'm preserving desirable traits, I don't care about preserving the 100% of genes since I know that's impossible, in fact I don't want to preserve all of them since my desire is I keep on maintaining and improving a certain drug cultivar. So it's really more like preserving a quality heirloom rather than a landrace. Because we all know and accept the fact that landraces are no longer true landraces once you cut their ties towards the enviroment that originated the unique set of traits they often define them. So we also should accept the fact that's a battle we've already lost. But it's still better to have access to loads of interesting heirloom IBLs from the 60s or 70s than nothing. Otherwise we would be only able to have access to such a very limited genepool.

I've found quite funny the story on the Original Ganja by Phylos because actually the only true Jamaicans that were actually preserved since the 60-70s were preserved in this same exact way. When the rasta farmer from Phylo's video spent weeks scouting all over the island looking for seeds from old lines from decades ago and he almost gave up because it was just impossible, the only thing he found were a bunch of seeds that an old rasta who lived close to him was preserving season after season at his orchard for his very personal use. To be honest I doubt he was doing selections with a thousand plants in order to do that, yet this line had a great value both for research and preservation. That's undeniable.

Anyway when Phylos tested the DNA from those ancient Jamaican seeds I've found it revealing and funny that the results were so close to the DNA obtained from the Lamsbread Jamaican we've been preserving for almost 20 years now. Funny enough it was preserved mostly in France and Spain by Rahan, JGL and many of us. Yet it's still one of the best representations of the old ancient Lamsbread Jamaicans as we can see after all this quests and DNA testing. Is the line a bit depressed due to inbreeding? Sure, especially sine the first reproductions were done without much care or information... but it's still better than giving up on preserving an old heirloom just because you can't work with 2000 plants at a time. Inbred or not, I love to smoke it and it's has big potential.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FCkpeDg6CJs

Actually many borderline extinct animals were preserved in captivity and zoo programs through desperate reproduction projects made only with a few hundreds or even a bunch of animals they were borrowing from other zoos worldwide, since they happened to be the last representation of the left population. Even if the offspring will be a bit more inbred than what we could have on the best possible scenario, biologists agree that obvioulsy it's still better than giving up on the total extintion of that species. Having contributed to preserve a living form from extinction it's just priceless IMO.

The true issue often happens when people attempts to do a preservation project without researching a bit on the topic prior to it, or without some previous experience or knowledge on those certain ecotypes that helps them to broaden their perspective. That leads to the belief that the successive open pollinations we often see=success. It also leads to issues like random inbreeding and loss of desirable quality traits since the farmer is no longer keeping the line domesticated and supervised. But once you have worked with dozens of similar cultivars and you also research the history behind them you really know what too look for. Can you imagine someone trying to preserve an old Mexican NLD besides he never had any other old Mexicans in front of him before in order to scrutinize what's going on?

On the other hand, the real preservation should be done just once with the original stock and as many seeds and desirable parent plants as possible, then those fresh P2 seeds should go into the freezer for long term storaging. Finally you may have the chance to keep improving the P2 generation if you wish and have the time or desire to do it, or just leave it like that and jump into the next one. But work is done already, anything else would be just detrimental for the genetic preservation as you've said.

Finally, very few people have actually access to the resources and facilities needed in order to do this legally or run preservation programs in hotspots like Colombia, Jamaica, Indonesia or Africa. I'd love to, I've been trying to get some support and collaborate with researchers worlwide in order to be able to achieve that and focus full time on researching and preserving the Cannabis accessions I've been collecting for the last decade and set up a proper gene bank and R&D facility but it's not that easy. Maybe you or Breeder Steve could grow acres of plants legally in Jamaica or Colombia but the truth is that if it wasn't by many amateur breeders or gardeners who have been doing their thing for years or had the revelation to freeze or preserve their favourite seeds back then, we won't even have the chance to even see many impressive lines from the 70s like we still do nowadays.



P.S: I'd love to research more on the minimum population in order to maintan a genetic stock because I've read all kinds of different opinions:

I suggested a good read on the subject:
Remember that Cannabis is a dioecious obligate outcrosser.

Crossa, J. et al. 1993. Statistical genetic considerations for maintaining germ plasm collections. Theoretical and Applied Genetics 86: 673-678.

And this:

Crossa J (1989) Methodologies for estimating the sample size
reequired for genetic conservation of outbreeding crops.
Theor Appl Genet 77:153-161


PS you said: "For me seeds of landraces are the property of the land and the farmers/people who live there"
Do they really belong to the present day farmers of a landrace that is hundreds of years old? I would say they are the present caretakers of the cultural heritage that has been passed on from father to son... That is one of the odd things about the international backdrop to this legislation is the Convention on Biological Diversity, which came into force in 1993.

In October 2010, the Convention on Biological Diversity adopted the Nagoya Protocol, which is intended to be a binding legal instrument on the subject of access to genetic resources and the fair and equitable sharing of benefits arising from their utilization.
(My collecting was previous to these laws so it has no real effect on me)

What this means is that Governments and others that one one hand prohibited and tried to eliminate Cannabis should get a piece of any profits from Cannabis varieties found in their area and used by others that want to use them. That just is not fair, they profit from the eradication efforts and again when what is left is collected by folks from the West for seeds, research, Cannabinoids, terpenes, etc. I have no problem sharing with the folks that are care-taking the landrace heritage varieties, but they did not develop or even grow them for a very long period (compared to the life of the landrace) in most cases. Any profit sharing must bear this in mind they are just caretakers, their fathers, grandfathers, as well as great great great grandfathers may have contributed much more.
It is not easy to do what is right and whom to be right with? That is why they have the Bio-Piracy laws to attempt to protect small local farmers and their work.


-SamS

[MJPassion]

We are all the caretakers of this earth.

The true owners of these lands & land races are our distant grand children & their grandchildren’s grandchildren for generations to come.