[spurr]

Wasn't Ted banned by Jeff? I thought Jeff forever banned him like more than a year ago for causing arguments, and Ted formed his own yahoo group, no?

If Ted is the guy I'm thinking about he and I also had a few talks, he is one who doesn't like to be shown when he is wrong (just like Elaine).

[spurr]

One of my favorite Elaine insults to me after I proved her wrong about EM was: "learn to read". Lol, oh how the mighty have fallen, she is not well thought of by a few scientists I have spoken to for the same reasons I dislike her.

[Clackamas Coot]

Originally Posted by spurr

One of my favorite Elaine insults to me after I proved her wrong about EM was: "learn to read". Lol, oh how the mighty have fallen, she is not well thought of by a few scientists I have spoken to for the same reasons I dislike her.

spurr

For reasons having to do with 'confidential information' from folks involved in the Oregon Tilth organization, some of the latest movements and such by Dr. E and her noble and able assistant, Matt S. at EarthFort.com (the SFI lab entity down in Corvallis, Oregon) watch and look for a 'super uber' thermal compost product as well as a earth-shattering EWC product line.

'nuff said.

CC

[spurr]

I am sadly LOLing, it's all about the $$$ with them, they seem to care not if they are providing incorrect info. And talk about conflict of interest between SFI and Earthfort. An outside lab without commercial/financial interest in Earthfort should be the ones testing Earthfort products, otherwise it's like having a fox guard the hen house...

What bothers me the most is people new to the topic of compost tea (aerated and non-aerated), EM, etc., think what she writes is 100% correct and she tends to get followers who don't critically analyze what she writes; thus I think she does a disservice to the movement in general. Greed, greed, greed...

We would never be able to have this side-discussion on the yahoo CT group, Jeff would never allow it. That is a main reason I dislike his group, it's too financially motivated.

[Clackamas Coot]

BTW - the thermal compost that they're going to hook up with is from a farm owned by a Yahoo.com bubble baby - i.e. big, big money. He also sits on the board of Organically Grown Co-Op - the largest organic produce company in the entire US.

I was privy to the 'lab reports' on both the thermal compost (which was tested by CT Guy as a favor to me) as well as the lab reports on a specific EWC product. I shared the report with CT Guy at lunch one day - and to say the least the 'lab report' was a source for much mirth and laughter. The 'bacteria to fungi' ratio was beyond stupid.

I hold both SFI and EarthFort in utter disdain. It seems to me a deal more about preserving and maintaining Dr. E's legend than furthering any actual science.

CC

[spurr]

Originally Posted by Clackamas Coot

BTW - the thermal compost that they're going to hook up with is from a farm owned by a Yahoo.com bubble baby - i.e. big, big money. He also sits on the board of Organically Grown Co-Op - the largest organic produce company in the entire US.

When I tried to convince her about the virtues of Luebke compost, and my updates to CMC, she would not hear it...I guess I should have told her how much $$$ she could make! (kidding about the money part)

I was privy to the 'lab reports' on both the thermal compost (which was tested by CT Guy as a favor to me) as well as the lab reports on a specific EWC product. I shared the report with CT Guy at lunch one day - and to say the least the 'lab report' was a source for much mirth and laughter. The 'bacteria to fungi' ratio was beyond stupid.

That is why I like you guys, and is why I like this forum soooo much more than the CT group. You guys are altruistic (along with Jay, Von, MM, Fista, etc., et al.) and care about accurate info and furthering scientific knowledge without the greed.

I hold both SFI and EarthFort in utter disdain. It seems to me a deal more about preserving and maintaining Dr. E's legend than furthering any actual science.

Her legend is pretty non-existent in academia too, but those who are not 'in the know', unlike like you guys and the Oregon Tilth Assignation etc., think she Jesus reincarnate.

[Clackamas Coot]

spurr

If one wanted to start an organic-oriented company and if you did NOT want any type of legitimate review, you probably couldn't pick a less friendly state than Oregon.

Oregon Tilth has been around for almost 4 decades - lots and lots of very smart people from academia, the organic farming deal in general, research at OSU (a major agriculture school), et al. Which explains the utter disdain that organic farmers hold OMRI in.

Even NOP regulations don't hold a candle to the level of organic growing 'purism' than Oregon Tilth.

CC

[Clackamas Coot]

spurr

Sometime when you're interested I'll have to tell you about the how/why I/we got Superthrive on the ODA's STOP SALE list and how that rather simple victory led to getting over 30 Advanced Nutrients' products on the same list as well as 15 products from Botanicare (i.e. NGW)

Same with General Hydroponic's Organic (snerk) complete line getting on the same list.

Then there's the deal when I was in an 'indoor garden center' one day and the ODA inspectors were there and I knew one of them from OSU and after exchanging nice talk I helpfully pointed out that 'Home & Garden' seaweed extract product (Algamin I think?) was out of compliance because as a concentrated seaweed extract then it would also mean that it contained concentrated NAA - a pesticide according the the EPA! Ooops!

Gone. Done. Finis.

Just trying to be a law-abiding citizen as it were!

LMAO

CC

Had to jump back in here.

Spurr, I hear what you're saying but I have to be a bit careful too. Elaine used to recommend our brewers because we did over 100K in testing with SFI. My father is an "SFI advisor" and took the microscope class 3X, bought her crappy Leica, and everything else from her. He donated all the brewers for her initial testing on brew length, e. coli, molasses, recipes, etc....

A few years later, we're off the list for larger brewers because someone else is touring with her who once stayed at my father's house and copied his design. The 5 gal. still got recommended cause no one else in the industry had one in that size that did the testing we did.

Now, SFI and Earthfort have the monopoly on testing and their own 5 gal. brewer (and other sizes). Their lab tests on their products are off the charts. I've had the same tea sent to the NY lab and the OR lab and gotten completely different results. I no longer do any real testing with SFI, but still have stacks of lab tests from all the money we've spent with them over the years. Now we send in our tests anonymously when we do need them because I'm afraid of bias if they see our name since we're competitors now.

Unfortunately, I have to still tread lightly because she's a bit of a folk hero in our industry. I do have an immense degree of respect for the work she's done in bringing ACT to the general public and getting it the publicity that she has with her work. I don't agree with everything she's done and she's already proven many times over that she doesn't like to be wrong.

CC,
As for Ted, I could strangle that guy. Jeff kicked him out cause he's a complete idiot and was always talking about his latest projects and how important he was, without ever providing any real data or helpful information. He was starting to get a following of idiots and a few of us called him out on his info. I've never had anyone I've exchanged so many heated emails with, both on and off-list. I'm a pretty mellow guy....

Jeff is a good guy too in my opinion, but like most people in the industry he's covering his ass, and pissing off Dr. E is not something he's willing to risk. She's still the top dog as far as many people are concerned. (I'm not talking about academia here).

Jeff's book is a good starting point and he's an EXCELLENT speaker. He sticks to his strengths, which are that he's a good writer and very charismatic in person. His book is a good starting point for people just learning about microbes and gardening.

You're right though, you have to be careful what you post in that yahoo group. I would never openly criticize Jeff or Elaine either for the very same reasons you listed. Much of our company's sales are by their recommendations as "experts" in the industry. Business is slow enough as it is these days!

[Clackamas Coot]

A few months after Jeff's book was published I was fortunate to hear him speak at a home & garden show in Portland and CT is right - Jeff is a very engaging speaker. During the weekend that he was in Portland he did what book authors have to do - he was on the local stations pitching his book.

I feel that like any book of this type it's easy to find nits to pick. But in the broader view, his book and other dynamics started a conversation particularly in the organic agriculture area and home gardeners using sustainable growing processes.

I can tell you that in the past 3 years the quality level of soil amendments at the organic farm supply stores went up - way up. It used to be that when you went and purchased a bag of alfalfa meal it was organic, non-GMO, etc. and was distributed by Wilbur-Ellis. The alfalfa meal was sourced out of Canada - certainly nothing wrong with that. Were it not for Canada, most organic farmers would be up a sh*t-creek - Canadian products include kelp & seaweed extracts, fish meal hydrolysate, fish bone meal hydrolysate, canola meal, rape seed meal (flax), sunflower meal, soybean meal, et al. so I'm not slamming products out of Canada at all.

However, now the farm stores carry organic non-GMO alfalfa meal (as an example) with a tag showing the grower, their web site (heh) and other contact information meaning that you can give them a call and ask specific questions. Is this alfalfa meal from the Pacific Northwest better than the product from our good friends up north? Probably not - let's say that they're exactly the same for the sake of this discussion.

I'd rather go with the local product because I believe that it's important to support the family farm operations that have moved from conventional growing practices and are using transitional and eventually organic methods.

Books like TWM give non-scientists (like the majority) something to wrap their arms around and to begin a process of seriously considering what amendments will provide the best benefit to their gardens and hopefully for their communities.

The book also engaged a wider body of researchers and testers - all of that is a good thing. If you use the terms 'aerated compost teas' at a search engine, you might be pleasantly surprised how many articles have been done in the past 3 years in big media outlets - New York Times, Los Angeles Times, Seattle Times (or whatever they're calling themselves this week), CNN, MSNBC, et al. Are the stories technically correct? Probably not for the purists - but more important is that these types of stories will prompt some folks to delve into the subject more deeply.

Bottom line - Jeff's a good guy. The book definitely made an impact on gardening forums all over the internet (not even considering cannabis sites in that statement) and at garden centers, nurseries, etc.

That's a good thing from my perspective.

CC