S1's suck?

nycKid · Sep 10, 2008

Selfing is creating seed by fertilizing a plant with pollen from itself. then the plants are grown out and the first generation is called and s1. If an individual is chosen from the s1 and again selfed, the resulting population is called the s2 do it again s3 , s4, etc. Traits from each sefed generation lead to an increase in homozygosity by 50 % for each heterozygous generaiton then the parent from a selfed individual. If a plant is self-fertilized and the resulting seed is collected. One of the seeds is then collected and grown, and again self-fertilized , and seed produced. Then all progeny and future generations have descended from a single ancestor, with no stray pollen from an external family introduced. The result is selfing one individual from the previous generation. After six generations of selfing without selection, 98.44% of the genes of an indifidual are homozygous refering to genes not the number of plants are then homozygous ( true breeding). What a way to put all those rare and beautiful mom's you have been holding onto for years back into seed form and back into deep freeze for future generations to enjoy and not die or get lost or worse? So why not s1's those clone onlys instead of crossing a desired female to an unknown male? and back crossing for desired traits? Put simply when choosing that male to use for the back cross the male should be a highly acceptable or nearly ideal genotype or posess the desired trait and not be deficient in other traits. Which sometimes is just not the case. So maybe stabilizing that clone only s1 six generations is the true key to 98.44% stability and a true replica of expression....thanx to Joge Cervantes...Now I can hone down my damn mother collection into something respectable.

Scoobs · Sep 10, 2008

It doesn't work exactly like that.

You will end up with plants that are not representative of the original.

They will be full of undesirable traits as they become more homozygous, especially for the recessives.

What you would end up doing is In-breeding so much that all the genetic defects will be amplified.

By all means try it out for yourself, but a healthy beautiful plant is the sum of it's parts, and what you would be doing is breaking the plant down into parts that don't match up as well as before.

Grizz · Sep 10, 2008

scoobs your right if you just use any pheno of the seeds you collect, if you run a bunch of each batch and select the traits you want you should be able to end up with that type of pheno in the end. as an example Im running kksc s1 from ograskel. I have 1 pheno that is head and shoulders better than any of the others so I self that one and so on and so on, I might be wrong but would love to try it.

Retardo Motabon · Sep 10, 2008

Go ahead Joesy, be "self"ish! I won't mind! I just tried some bud grown from some DSD I selfed and it tastes just like the mom, same heavier body buzz intact too. It was done up by a noob and still did it's job.

nycKid · Sep 10, 2008

Who has done it? I have yet to see anyone make anything other than s1's period.

barneyfife · Sep 10, 2008

im no botinist but it sounds do able. if you have the time and space for proper selection.
because inbreeding wont put any undesirable traits in the resulting offspring.
it will only bring any undesirables that are already in that plant to the surface.

and than as joesy pretty much said. you would cull the undesirables. and only breed the healthy plants that had the traits you are looking for in your end result.

there by eliminating any unwanted traits you will have improved the end result.

wouldnt that be correct?

Scoobs · Sep 10, 2008

joesy whales said:
scoobs your right if you just use any pheno of the seeds you collect, if you run a bunch of each batch and select the traits you want you should be able to end up with that type of pheno in the end. as an example Im running kksc s1 from ograskel. I have 1 pheno that is head and shoulders better than any of the others so I self that one and so on and so on, I might be wrong but would love to try it.

A first generation selfing is basically the same as an F2, there are still a lot of heterozygous alleles floating around in the genotype. But the more you self fertilize (inbreed) the less the heterozygousity.

Making some S2s of your prized S1 pheno would be interesting to see the results. I would bet on more variety of the phenotypes observed. You would start seeing some messed up plants in the batch, but also some beauties as well. The problem is isolating the exact trait you want without losing the other good traits in the process. Example: A plant that has the strong strawberry smell you want, but the yield is really low and it is extra sensitive to nutrients.

But now you would have a homozygous strawberry plant that could be crossed with another of your homozygous plants that is extra large in yield, resulting in strawberry smelling high yielding offspring. Hopefully :joint:

Selfing is an important tool in breeding cannabis, but you have to know the drawbacks of selfing as well.

Grizz · Sep 10, 2008

Scoobs your making alot of sinse, It gets a little involved for my simple pea brain to handle. would be damn interesting project though, if I ever get my hands on the white again I might give it a try. If I live that long lol,,..

nycKid · Sep 11, 2008

I think you guys are missing my point...If an individual is chosen from the s1 and again selfed, the resulting population is called the s2 do it again s3 , s4, etc. Traits from each sefed generation lead to an increase in homozygosity by 50 % for each heterozygous generaiton then the parent from a selfed individual. The result is selfing one individual from the previous generation. After six generations of selfing without selection, 98.44% of the genes of an indifidual are homozygous refering to genes not the number of plants Who has done this? anyone? I guess I'll dive in

Grizz · Sep 11, 2008

Yes kid I got your point, not meaning nothing by calling you kid, we were just dicussing the process to get to that s6, what Im trying to say is even with s1 or s2 or 3, 4, 5, you still get a few different traits in each plant, Im sure if you pick the best one each time it gets less variance with each selfing, and when you get to s6 or 7 you should have a perfect plant in theory, Hope you try it and see what happens, please post pics and keep us up to date, can't wait to see results.

suzycremecheese · Sep 11, 2008

I think you guys are missing my point...If an individual is chosen from the s1 and again selfed, the resulting population is called the s2 do it again s3 , s4, etc. Traits from each sefed generation lead to an increase in homozygosity by 50 % for each heterozygous generaiton then the parent from a selfed individual. The result is selfing one individual from the previous generation. After six generations of selfing without selection, 98.44% of the genes of an indifidual are homozygous refering to genes not the number of plants Who has done this? anyone? I guess I'll dive in

If you breed dioecious plant species properly you do it with a population in mind and not an individual plant... with adequate populations inbreeding doesn't become as much of an issue.

The scenario you bring up would eventually go nowhere after reaching 100% homozygous offspring, which might not be advantageous depending on the alleles, or end up with an accumulation of lethal alleles.

Gert Lush · Sep 11, 2008

suzycremecheese said:
If you breed dioecious plant species properly you do it with a population in mind and not an individual plant... with adequate populations inbreeding doesn't become as much of an issue.

Precisely!
Theoretically yes, you could get something stable (homozygous) - if that's what you want - through persistent selfing. However, if you want to avoid stabilising all the really shite traits (some of which may have been recessive and hence not yet manifest) you need LARGE populations to select from. Huindreds of individuals, if not thousands like the Burbank fans advocate...

A bit beyond the specs of my shoebox grow, anyway.

And then there's still the question of inbreeding depression.

Think of it this way: With small populations, inbreeding (of which s1 is the most extreme form) will NOT necessarily yield superb examples of phenotypes. Would you continue the s1 process on the retards?

Hum the "Duelling Banjos" theme from "Deliverance". Get the idea?

nycKid · Sep 11, 2008

Hmm all good points. Plus the fact that you never really know what makes up a plants genetics in the first place...Like how many plants made the clone in the first place. I have an og kush s1 that is close to a tahoe cut I have and I can't believe how close they are in smell taste and high. But the S1 yields more I think I am going to use the s1 og and see what happens. Thanks for the replies fella's
I'll ask Chimera and see what he thinks as well.
nycKID

Purple Amnesia Haze

hoosierdaddy · Sep 11, 2008

But guys...if you produce some S1's, then to be able to produce some S2's, there will need to be some selection, yes? I would think this like any other selection process, save for the means of fertilizing the flowers.
And you can select out the traits that show up during these selection process' up to the S6. I mean, you gotta pick the plants to self next, yes?
And wouldn't the selection become easier and easier?

What am I missing about this discussion?
(please in layman's terms, as I am ignorant)

And to prove I am ignorant (or not)...
Wouldn't the only potential harm (besides the obvious picking other than true breeding stock to begin with) be risking a chance of possibly not passing on genes that are exclusively male? (shrug)

Rgd · Sep 11, 2008

Imo many times the s1 is superior to the original "elite"
This is where all these new og's are coming from.
Bx may be fine but gimmie the fem s1's.

nycKid · Sep 11, 2008

Hoosierdaddy exactly my point thank you, homozygous loci remain homozygous in future generations upon selfing, but heterozygous loci = each selfed generation leads to an increase in homozygosity by 50% for each heterzygous locus, and each subsequent generation, derived from selfing an s1 individual, is 50% more homozygous than the parent form wich it was derived. repeated selfing, or single - seed descent, is the fastest way to achieve homozygosity within a group or family, Again, the more plants grown from a selfed populantion, the better probability a breeder has of finding selfed progeny tha show all of the desired traits. -Jorge Cervantes. So why are people bashing S1's WHEN IT SEEMS NOONE HAS DONE THE ABOVE.....AND THAT IS TAKING AN S1 PAST AN S1 TO S6 TO GET TO 98.44% OF THE GENES OF THE INDIVIDUAL.
nycKID

Asian Fantasy is not extinct

mostwanted · Sep 11, 2008

nyckid this is a great idea...ps hey do you have any banana og pics

Grizz · Sep 11, 2008

Glad you poped in RGD, Im learning what you say can be true, not all the time but it can happen, what do you think of trying to take it all the way to the s6? also why arent more breeders doing s1's with the elites like the fire cut og and chem"s d, 4, and the white, I would much rather spend my money on these seeds rather than crosses and bx"s.

Sam_Skunkman · Sep 12, 2008

Most fem seeds are not S1 they had different mothers and fathers, not the same female clone, one transformed to male for pollen that is put on the same female clone to self.
Selfing has many problems, number one is that selfed plants may or may not be the same as the original parent, the genes have been changed by selfing, that is why most people self. If the selfed plant is 50% more homogeneous then the parent, that shows the gene change pretty clearly. Also selfing has many problems, you try selfing a plant for six generations and you will find they are inbreed vigorless, or even sterile, the pollen is unable to make seeds, or even be released from the male flowers (functionally sterile). If you want to really try this you need to make parallel lines and then combine them after the work to restore vigor. I have done it and it is not for amateurs, it is long hard work with few rewards without a detailed breeding goal. The S2-S6 populations are fraught with problems, hard to grow and after the S3 often unable to produce fertile pollen.

-SamS

Rgd · Sep 12, 2008

I would agree that there can be vigour problems selfing selfed plants.
I have done it to f3..it was not encouraging.
Selfing multi crosses is a pandoras box.
If the clone is is relatively "pure" i have found that the first self does fine,
and can produce specimens superior in potency to the orig.
Reversed female plants seldom spew pollen, it is arduous, time consuming, picky
but sometimes satisfying work.

S1's suck?

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