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Seedlings in coco falling over and stems shrivelling

G

Guest

Hi folks

I'm having a disaster trying to start seedlings in coco, first time I've tried using coco. More than half of the seedligs in coco have fallen over, the stem s have shrivelled and they are dying, never seen this happen in soil before (and my sedlings in soil are healthy) so soes anyone know what's causing it? 8 out of 10 Egytians have fallen over, 5 out of 6 Herijuana x Colombian Gold and 3 of the Colombian gold x Grapefruitbowl have fallen over too, plus one Durban Poison. They sprout aboce the coco, grow fine for 2 days then suddenly something seems to go wrong with the stem, it shrivells up and the seedling falls over. 3 or 4 of them have rigid stems upto a point, then they just suddenly fold over like they've been snapped. Any help/advice/tips are much appreciated, I really want to be able to start seeds in coco, but it's just going wrong! I am going to start 5 more seeds in soil as backup and see if those also do this stem wilting thing.

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T

thc43

Active member
Veteran
looks like the plants in the dryer soil are doing better id start by getting plants closer to the light IF using a flouro and dont water again until cup is light and near dry..


Ive had dramas with seed in cups of coco too so went back to germing in rock wool and as soon as the root is visable then plant into coffee cups watering only about 20 to 40 ml per cup when needed (roughly every second day for the first week)..

cut Out more drain holes up the sides of the cup and put on a heat mat under if you need them to drink more or use the water in cup. Steak the seed with peices of staw or small garden steaks but be gentle stems look very fragile and many alittle soft.. is there any air flow? and have you flushed the coco with a very mild nute mix? really helps with canna coco without food your in for a slow start..
 
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bergerbuddy

bergerbuddy

Canna Coco grower
Veteran
Hey BritishHempire!!..

I agree with everything Thc said as far as dealing with ur seedlings in coco.. I would add make sure ur using a GOOD coco.. like Canna... some of the cocos have been steam sterilized making them bacteria breeding grounds...

I used coco for seedlings but found I had WAY BETTER results with dirt for this reason.... SOOON ur gonna need to start feeding those seedlings... there is NO NPK in coco.. and seedlings DO NEED NPK.. dirt provides that for them... in coco we need to provide... There is a product called Canna Rizhotonic.. excellent shit.. expensive but EXCELLENT.. it has a weak NPK value too... mix that stuff up at like 10ml per gal.. or per 4 ltr..hehehe and apply it RIGHT FROM THE START... after those girls/boyz get their second set of MJ leaves... start adding like Canna A&B at 3ml ea. per 4ltr.. or whatever u decided on at about 1/5 of regular LIGHT dose recommendation!.. You can play around with feeding times and products etc.. but I would ALWAYS run a "control" group of seedlings in dirt just to see how your actually doing with the coco, until u have convinced urself that u got it down..... I tried that but after about 6mo. I just said screw it.. got that canna organic mix.. which HAS coco in it.. and u can use coco ferts on it... but it also comes with a charge.. which the plants just love.. giving em good ole PH'd water for the first 2wks or so..

Peace
BB

P.s. Its "Damping off" is whats happening to the seedlings.. its an airborne fungus/bacteria that attacks the stem of the plant...its aggravated by gettin it wet, so don't let water get on the seedling at all.. and its aggravated by high humidity... lower the RH or i've seen some coco's like biobizz from in the states, that grows a white fungus on the top of the coco that can spread to the plants... but I don't see it in your pix.. you would CERTAINLY see it.. An OZINATOR would actually do u wonders as they kill the bacteria and mold in the area.. both airborne and on surfaces.
 
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G

Guest

I'll let them dry out and see if any of them pull through. Most of them are too floppy and weak to stake, but some are not bad, so I'll try staking those ones. They have been fed Plagron Alga Grow at 1ml per litre twice.
 
cough_cough_eer

cough_cough_eer

Anita Bonghitt
Veteran
I've started in coco!!!!

I've started in coco!!!!

I just water my seedlings real lightly the first few weeks, then gradually water more frequently so they can get used to being watered more often.i usually use a weak soulution oc cal-mag for ferts....
 
Dr. D

Dr. D

Active member
Veteran
Hey BH i always start mine in soil then transplant to coco...i find this much easier and never have any problems..
 
G

Guest

Hi Doc

I've been wondering if it was possible to start seeds in soil then transplant into coco. I think its a case of having overwatered these. good job I have lots of seeds, I've got replacements in paper towels as we speak and I've planted 5 Pacific Aire seedlings in soil that germed in towels. I very rarely lose any seedlings I start in soil so it;s good news to know I can start in soil then switch to coco.
 
Rosy Cheeks

Rosy Cheeks

dancin' cheek to cheek
Veteran
I've only worked with coco for about a year and is by no means an expert, then again, during this year I've never lost a single seedling or clone planted in coco coir, so I must be doing something right.

bergerbuddy said:
its an airborne fungus/bacteria that attacks the stem of the plant...its aggravated by gettin it wet, so don't let water get on the seedling at all.. and its aggravated by high humidity... lower the RH or i've seen some coco's like biobizz from in the states, that grows a white fungus on the top of the coco that can spread to the plants
Click to expand...

It could be that it is a fungi or bacteria that attacks the seedlings, but I see no reason why this would happen only in coco, and not in soil.
When I look at the pics, all the seedlings seem to show signs of either deficiency or ph problems. As Bergerbuddy said, even the healthiest of seedling needs a minimum of N-P-K and micronutrients, and this will have to be added to the coco coir. Personally, I start them off in a diluted mix of root booster (Plagron's Roots, which is the best root booster I've come across) and organic nutrients. Ph shouldn't really be a problem in pre-washed coco coir, so my guess is that deficiency is the cause, at least partially.
Cutting down on humidity might help against the fungi, then again a high humidity is also your best option for healthy seedlings and clones, so you would be doing as much bad to the seedlings as you would to the fungi. I would rather try some mild, organic fungicide to fight the supposed fungi/bacteria.

Finally, there is also the possibility that your coco coir is not properly pre-washed. In that case, it contains an unknown amount of sodium and impurities, which will decrease growth, and can kill fragile seedlings.
 
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BadTicket

BadTicket

ØG T®ipL3 ØG³
Moderator
Veteran
Rosy Cheeks said:
Finally, there is also the possibility that your coco choir is not properly pre-washed. In that case, it contains an unknown amount of sodium and impurities, which will decrease growth, and can kill fragile seedlings.
Click to expand...

Indeed, if it's BN coco, this is most likely the case..?
 
G

Guest

Hazy, I didn't add any nutes to the coco, the seedlings were in rockwool cubes that were presoaked in wtaer with a drop of Superthrive added. The nutes problems began from day one, some of the seedlings were unhappy immediately with some yellowing, some having funky twisty leaves and some showing burnt tips. I lplanted these into cups of coco. Some of the seeds went directly into coco.Most of the ones that have shrivelled and fallen ovr never had any nute issues and had been healthy.
 
G

Guest

give them nutes then ,,its that simple,rockwool and coco are both inert so need nuting
 
G

Guest

Actually, they have been fed with quarter strength Plagron Alga Grow (1ml per litre) a couple of times. The nutes issues seem unrelated to the falling over problem as only the CG x GFB f2s have nute issues whereas only three of those fell over and shrivelled, the other shrivelled ones are Egyptians and Herijuana x Colombian Gold, neither of those showed any nute problems, they just fell over.
 
Rosy Cheeks

Rosy Cheeks

dancin' cheek to cheek
Veteran
Then it could be that the coco isn't properly washed BH. There are natural salts in it that could explain the shrivelling. Sodium levels should be kept as low as possible. Levels at over 100 ppm would be considered excessive and over 250 ppm are considered toxic.
 
muddy waters

muddy waters

Active member
Hi BH,

I hope the good Dr. Xavier will appear to give a definitive diagnosis but I think it's due to unleached salts and pH fluctuation disrupting the young plants' metabolism and a slightly oxygen-poor substrate, making the seedings easy pickings for one of the "damping off" fungi.

Once the chemical issues with the coco are dealt with, you may be able to ward off these fungi with chamomile tea, or sterilization if you're using castings/compost/soil. Good luck.
 
truecannabliss

truecannabliss

TrueCanna Genetics - Selection is art
Mentor
ICMag Donor
Veteran
I'd say overwatering or underfeeding.....which brand of coco are you using? If available i'd really suggest going with canna coco as well as their nutes.
Peace
 
G

Guest

Hmm, I've been wandering about the coco, wish I'd bought a bag of canna stuff now, but it's a 50 mile drive to the nearest hydro shop. I will re-use the cups of coco that are left over from the dead seedlings, I'll just flush them thoroughly with plain water. I've got two 8l bricks of this stuff left, what's the best way to flush it prior to use? Stick it in a container with holes in the bottom and run water through it? Maybe wash it 2-3 times and then soak it with water with quarter strength seaweed extract?

I'm really pissed off that the Herijuana x Colombian Gold seedlings are at death's door as I don't have anymore beans of this cross I made and it was my best ever indica x my favourite sativa.
 
G

Guest

Here's a pic of one of the Egyptians, I pulled it up as it was bent double and looked to be without hope. As you can see, it looks okay, just the stem has shrivelled, causing her to fall over. This one had no nute problems, like the other 9 Egyptians, she was fine for two days after sprouting, the they started falling over due to shrivelled stems. Could this be simply overwatering? The coco I used came as a highly compressed coir block and I had to soak it in water before use. I think it may have been far too moist. I bought the coco as highly compressed coir blocks from wiggly wigglers, the company I get my worm castings from, in future I think I'll go with Canna. Just discovered my copy of the canna grow with coco DVD I picked up at the UK hemp expo, I shall spend Sunday afternoon watching it (with a big joint lol).

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G

Guest

A german friend on another forum gave me some info on how he prepares his coco, but he then adds loads of ammendments like 'hoofmeal' (bonemeal I think) alfalfa, loads of stuff, which I'm not doing. Just wondered if folks agreed this is a proper way to prepare coco for use, he is also using the 8l bricks like the ones I have:

For expanding I use a 10 L bucket and cold to tepid water. It became a habit to let the coco soak over two nights, flushing it 3 - 5 times, to get rid of all salts and hopefully the excess of K in there.

To the last soaking (3 - 5 hrs) I add this stuff:

3/10th of the 5-5-5 mineral fertilizer (recommended is one hub of the disperser to 1 L). I add 3 hubs to my 10 L bucket.
3-4 drops of the turtle B-vitamins
(* Vitamin A: 1000 I.E.
* Vitamin B1: 10mg
* Vitamin B2: 12.5mg
* Vitamin B6: 15mg
* Vitamin B12: 100mcg
* Vitamin C: 200mg
* Vitamin D3: 150 I.E.
* Vitamin E: 5mg
* Biotin: 150mcg
* Vitamin K3: 2.5mg
* Folsäure: 0.3mg
* Nikotinamid: 50mg
* Cholinchlorid: 50mg
* Inosit: 10mg
^^^per 10ml)

A dash of the seaweed extract (< 1 tsp)

And a handfull of the epsoms.

I adjust the water for the last soaking to 5.5 PH, using citric or sulphur acid. With sulphur acid I noticed, the PH rising very quickly again (here up to 5.7 a few hours later) but that seems ok for nute uptake. With citric acid the ph rises slower. I usually try to get 5.4 with the acid. But I'm fine when I'm in the range between 5.2 and 5.5.

let me quote Baas van Buuren here http://www.basvanbuuren.nl/pages/bas...guage=2&site=1
Quote:
Chemical processing
Before the coir is processed into substrates that are suitable for professional horticulture, it needs to be buffered. Coir has a complex chemical structure. All complex compounds are neutrally charged by nature. After all, nature is always searching for a balance. The core is negatively charged and surrounded by a layer of positively charged ions. These positively charged coir ions primarily consist of potassium (K+) and sodium (Na+). Apparently, the coconut palm produces potassium before bearing fruit. Potassium and sodium are positively charged monovalent coir ions. If the coir were used for horticultural purposes without buffering, its structure would, with the use of a nutrient solution, exchange positively charged monovalent ions for positively charged bivalent ions until a new balance is found. Calcium (Ca2+) and magnesium (Mg2+) are the elements in the nutrient solution that are primarily responsible for this exchange. Positively charged bivalent ions have a stronger bond with the negatively charged core than the positively charged monovalent ions. As a result, the complex compound releases potassium and sodium, which is made available to the plant. The calcium and magnesium from the nutrient solution is absorbed by the complex compound and thus no longer made available to the plant. Moreover, the nutrient solution contains potassium as well. To prevent a potassium surplus, the exchange must take place before the substrate reaches the cultivator. This process is strictly monitored by BVB Research. Afterwards, the coir must be rinsed to reduce the EC levels, which are too high after the exchange. If the substrate is treated and flushed in the country where the coconut was grown, residue material can be used as fertiliser by the local banana, coconut and cashew nut plantations. Instead of a waste flow in the Netherlands, the material is sustainably recycled into substances that can be used on the plantations.

That's why I flush the coco for about two days. I measured the EC this morning, after two days of soaking a brick, and it was below tap water (the chlorine evaporates). I add more Nitrogene and Mg than to my previous used soil mix for that reason. Alfalfa is rich in calcium and Mg, one reason (besides B vitamines) to add it to the mix. A runoff every watering (feeding to waste) is part of the game as well.

I'm thinking a drop of superthirve, some Atazyme and Seaweed extract instead of the products he's using, but otherwise using the same method, any opinions?
 
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