Advanced light cycle

[shaggyballs]

Most of the big thinkers are here, so that is why I posted here instead of lighting.

I have alway thought this was a very natural approach and wanted to design a HID ballast for this,but the bulb color always got in the way!

EDIT: I am speaking of LED fixtures.

8 stage ‘mother earth’ timing function allows user to mimic the great outdoors like never before seen in indoor growing, slowly waking your plants up in the morning and seeing them to bed every night. 8 separately set stages allow for light to gently turn on in the ‘morning’ (sunrise), intensify into full power (full day sun), then gently turn off in the ‘evening’ (sunset). Each of these stages can be set to the user’s desired duration and desired spectrum intensities.

Would this cause a loss of light energy that would be detrimental to the growth of the plants?

In other words is this a sound concept or just another gimmick?
Haters are welcome!
I have attached a poll.
If you can, please state the reason for your vote.
Any input is appreciated!

shag

 

[Only Ornamental]

Gimmick... but a f*** cool one! Does make sense for a terrarium or aquarium (i.e. animals) but I don't think that plants will appreciate a lovely sunrise or a romantic sunset...
It may help reducing electricity costs without risking flowering in case one can't/won't run a night interruption instead or use two timers and two sets of bulbs (or more).
A problem I see is the point at which the plants perceive the light as such and hence it may be difficult to know the precise day/night-length the plants experience. In my experience, 20 W budget LED (didn't try lower wattage) per square-meter are perceived as day; suppose 5 W would be too. In other words, even if strongly dimmed, the new toy will be perceived as day (which remains to be proven).
I know of some who use a computer program to pilote and dim their terrarium lights in accordance either to calculated sunrise/sunset times of their animals countries of origin or even tried to link the program to the local weather there! THAT's a real gimmick... though very natural and certainly appreciated by the animals (unless it's raining all day long ).

Besides, HID, although dimmable in a certain range, should be run at the indicated wattage. Else, they 'burn out' quickly and, as you've observed too, have an off-spectrum (more lines than bands). A solid state plasma aka sulfur plasma lamps (like the LiFi by Luxim) are dimmable down to bout 10% without any changes in emission spectrum . Most sun-like spectrum ever and a great lumen/watt output but they're expensive as hell...

 

[shaggyballs]

Thanks, I like the natural concept myself, I just wonder if we are over saturating our plants in the morning and in the evening.

Or it it more about usable radiation absorbed in a light cycle.
I do know the natural mid day sun over saturates plants with light.
Will this diminish overall absorbed PAR or PUR (photoactive usable radiation)?

 

[Mikell]

I think it is a very interesting topic, and one of the better dicussions I've had concerning indoor plants and lighting was focused around it.

As I believe to be well understood, there is an environmental gulf between indoor and outdoor growing (especially concerning landrace/wild genetics) that is difficult to be properly breached, and many strain variants will never perform to their potential in an artificial environment. Soil, light, atmosphere and space are all but impossible (within ones average means) to intune to the specifics of the terroir of where the seeds were taken from.

In the interest of mimicking different environments to maximize the potential of wild strains, this would be a step forward, at least in the aspect of light. Adjustable variations in daily and seasonal light should bring another key to optimized indoor growth (from the plants perspective) and senescence under a growers control.

 

[shaggyballs]

I think it is a very interesting topic, and one of the better dicussions I've had concerning indoor plants and lighting was focused around it.

As I believe to be well understood, there is an environmental gulf between indoor and outdoor growing (especially concerning landrace/wild genetics) that is difficult to be properly breached, and many strain variants will never perform to their potential in an artificial environment. Soil, light, atmosphere and space are all but impossible (within ones average means) to intune to the specifics of the terroir of where the seeds were taken from.

In the interest of mimicking different environments to maximize the potential of wild strains, this would be a step forward, at least in the aspect of light. Adjustable variations in daily and seasonal light should bring another key to optimized indoor growth (from the plants perspective) and senescence under a growers control.

I did not even consider this aspect when I inquired...Thanks...time to ponder now.

shag

 

[FatherEarth]

I say we can certainly control the weather indoors, and with precision. If not then your room wasn't built properly. I think waxing and waning light sources are the one biggest influences over the difference between in indoor and outdoor cannabis. I would prefer the most intense light on my garden for the entirety of the cycle, provided they can handle the light. I certainly don't want waning light sources during flower. I cannot see the benefit to the ' gimmick'.. Someone please enlighten me, lol....

 

[Mikell]

Let me revise that, as you've clearly misunderstood.

It is all but impossible (within reason) to mimic the atmosphere a plant would be exposed to naturally outdoors. The last time I went for a hike in the woods, I was struck dumb by the lack of carbon filters.

The idea behind a fade in/fade out, is to replicate a more natural setting to the plant, not to increase dank weight. Perhaps/hopefully to add one of the cues that is obviously missing from indoor growing.

If all you're after is weight... then I can understand how this seems like a waste of time.

 

[b0nZai.b0b]

i thought several times at this sunassimilation myself, not in order with the lith spectrum coz i ve no time and atm not enough skill to build my own super LED light, but with the timings and cycles - just to adjust it as near as possible to the natural light times, which rotate every day, there is only few days with exactly 12/12 in most places as u suppost, so i thought i could take every day a few minutes of 12/12 light away to immitate it comes close to the end, but i came to the conclusion that we can´t resamblance the nature as close as needed for the taste of outdoor in indoor garden...

so many contributory factors which plays a big roll in outdoor u can´t set up urself, it´s not only the fade in/out thing with the sun it´s also the rise of it, there is rain, clouds, wind, i guess it´s to scientific to come closer than we r already in indoor. goal has to be, come near as needed, and i c a lot of pretty plantz indoor, but intressting these anyway.
there is some foundation which has to be prove, but most in order to the full light spectrum i assume, i´m not sure if a wake up and smooth light off is good for anything?, contoversial speculations on

 

[FatherEarth]

Not about weight really, trichomes also are response to intense light. Larfy and lacking trichomes, with less photosynthesis to drive the plant is what you are after I get it. Point that makes the sun mimicking even crappier is that you cannot make a light that is as intense or the same spectrum as the sun. So not only do you have a shitty copy of the sun it also waxes and wanes. Where do I sign up!?

 

[FatherEarth]

The idea behind a fade in/fade out, is to replicate a more natural setting to the plant, not to increase dank weight.

Lol yes I get that much out of it , but this is doing what for your plants?

 

[Mikell]

Got an itch racing around in your panties? Apologies if I'm explaining concepts you already grasp, but you do seem rather easily confused here.

Replicating what happens naturally outdoors. Much like my smarmy comment about carbon filters outdoors, I can't recall the sun snapping on at daybreak.

Am I a lighting guru that can explain the chemical reactions taking place at sunset/rise, and how they effect a plants lifecycle? Hell no. Am I interested in new techniques that might prove useful with open minded research? Hell yes. If everyone had the pisspoor attitude you're presenting here, peat 'n perlite under monochromatic lighting would be the pinacle of growing indoors.

A slight decrease in light strength for a half hour to an hour a day is going to result in larfy bunk? The voice of experience speaking or more likely, are you just blabbering with your ass cheeks?

I must have inadvertently offended the cult of AEA you prostrate before

 

[raphenilweed]

I believe the science is sound but with the intensity (or lack there of) of an LED it is not really effective.

 

[Bubbleblower]

A dynamic light cycle is a very good idea with many advantages.

You may want to use incandescent bulbs for the FR in the last 20 minutes of the light cycle (FR LEDs for End-of-day treatment is not "common" at all and there are good reasons for that).
They will still emit a lot of FR after you switch them of.

I have no idea what the new light cycle is and can't imagine what could be new about it.

 

[chiliwalt]

I've been growing both indoor and outdoor all my life and full term OD or Sungrown exposed to the full forces Mother Nature pretty much sucks. It's good for one thing, growing huge trees, I.e. pulling weight.
I did several 99 Big Ranch Blue dreams this year, not one was under 5# but they can't compare in taste and smell, more effects as same cut ran in small rooms. Even 50 lighters. Still boutique artisan grow compared to full terms.

I've never met a strain I couldn't dial in in a room. Give me two or three runs with her and I'll have her expressing her full on potential. Interior work just smokes better. Quite frankly it's the only way to get the true expression of a particular strain. We learned a lot when CAMP joined the party in 1981 we had to take our shit inside.

In the beginning way before the advent of any hydro store or nute company, many of us tried our hardest to mimic nature. Slowly, after years of experience we learned what the cannabis plant really likes is a perfect stress free environment. A steady light schedule. 24 or whatever in veg and 12/12 in flower. And no light leaks. No extreme high temps nor extreme lows. no high winds breaking capitate Trikoms off.

That's how we make the sticky icky. You know. The flowers that stink through brick walls. And tha you def need a carbon scrubber for. The ones that will stick to any wall and still be stuck there in the morning.

In point of fact many of us have been doing our best to bring indoors out. hard at it for over a decade. We call them deps in thes climbs. And they are closet to interior work as I've e re seen. If done right that is.

So it's worse than a gimmick. It's trying to take cannabis one step backwards to a mere weed.

~Chili

 

[Mikell]

And what of cannabis breeders and smokers of landrace, that claim indoor grown never competes with the high, flavour or growth of a wilder genetic in it's natural environment?

I understand and more or less agree with what you're trying to get across, but I think this "optimization" of a strain indoors is merely our current perception of what is "good smoke". Modern polyhybrids are born and bred indoors, and tweaked/refined towards this perception.

 

[Beta Test Team]

Hey shaggy I thought maybe it would be good to post (a slightly updated version) here what I wrote you when you asked about this topic in the other thread:

[No, your proposed radiation schedule is likely not beneficial.] Not from any research we've reviewed in terms of quality or quantity when we're only talking about photons and Cannabis photosynthesis.

Cannabis takes about 30 to 45 minutes after the lights are turned on to reach 'steady state photosynthesis' under strong radiation. The period between when the lights are turned on and when steady state is reached is called the "lag" period, we want to minimize that time period to maximize radiation use efficiency and plant growth. Therefore using bright light when the lights are turned on is helpful.

So at least for Cannabis a bright morning means the plant reaches steady state photosynthesis sooner, which is a good thing in terms of daily net photosynthetic rate (we want to keep that high)

Also, just the other day I read research while working on our spreadsheet that explained how there was no benefit to your proposed lighting schedule (I don’t recall the research specifics off hand, but I think it was on Cannabis). Your proposed schedule has been tested by scientists in the past, in growth chambers, but not on Cannabis, and has not been found to be beneficial (which is why it’s not used in professional horticulture). I will find the specific information for you tomorrow.

The total irradiace per day, as well as the instantaneous irradiance (per second) are what matter. The former is more important to plant growth than the latter, due to the bell shape of sunlight you wrote about. Too much of either and you can reduce plant quality (such as negativity effecting terpenes).

P.S. I voted it's a gimmick

 

[shaggyballs]

Thank you...still treadin' water you guys and your giant brains...LOL
I do take in the great info provided, just a little lag time ya know.

Thanks again
shag

 

[Mikell]

I almost like being wrong more than right Absorbs better. I would enjoy reading anything you have to share.

 

[shaggyballs]

What about far red led's putting out far red after they are off?
overloading the plant.

 

[Only Ornamental]

What about far red led's putting out far red after they are off?
overloading the plant.

Far red only induces an 'immediate' nightfall for the plant.
Plants measure the night-length with phytochromes to compare actual day/night lengths with the internal clock so that they know for example when to flower. These light-sensing proteins have two configurations depending on presence of red (visible) light and absence of light, respectively. In the morning with the first light, it takes mere minutes to turn the phytochromes into the non-signalling 'day' state whereas after sunset it takes 2-4 hours of complete (visual) darkness until the light-activated phytochromes spontaneously turn back into the signalling night-state. In order to reduce this lag time, the phytochromes can be quickly converted to the night form by irradiation with far red light (near infrared). A sunset is often orange because red light bends stronger in the atmosphere than blue and once it's visibly dark, there's still far red light present which helps the plants to actively convert the inactive phytochromes (called Pr for 'phytochrome - red light') into the active night state (called Pfr for 'phytochrome - far red light').
Notably, irradiating phytochromes with red and far red light at the same time will turn them into the Pr or day-form.
Using far red LEDs after lights out does exactly the same like a sunset but faster; switching the phytochromes from Pr to Pfr within minutes.
In an indoor setting, switching off the lights removes, depending on the bulb type, immediately all light including far red and the phytochromes can only spontaneously and hence slowly turn into the night form. That means, using a 12/12 light schedule on your timer is perceived by the plant as roughly 15/9. In nature, the night starts shortly after sunset and hence outdoor hemp starts flowering at a critical day-length of about 14 hours (tropical cannabis a bit later in season). In other words, indoor flowering cannabis gets 12 hours of photosynthesis whereas outdoor crops get two hours more.
Bottom line is, by using far red LEDs on lights-out one can use longer days during the flowering cycle (e.g. 14/10) and hopefully get fatter buds .