Lockout at week 4 of flower. root disease, RA's, ?. Please Help!

[pappy masonjar]

Ok, ill try and keep this short and to the point.
For anybody who's unfamiliar with me; i have a little 2 light set up, that keeps me supplied with pot that i need medicinally.

So. i really really need help figuring out whats happening in my garden.
The way things are going im in big trouble.
Its not like i can go to a dispensary if i run out of weed.


Anyways, onto the problem..

My last run went into flower looking good, and they stayed looking good until around week 6 of 12/12, and then they started fading and getting locked out.
I chalked it up to something i must've done, but couldnt figure out exactly what.
I brushed it off as a fluke and moved on. In hindsight, it was the first signs of whatever this problem is.

Fast foward, my next round (1x- 25 gallon smartpot of GG4) went into flower looking happy and healthy..
It looked good until about day 26 of 12/12, I notice the petioles started to darken and turn purple.
Day 28 the leaves started to uniformly begin yellowing.
Day 30, K deficiency started hitting harder.
The plant has pretty much stopped drinking.. Buds have completely stopped developing.

So, i look in the soil and i saw lots of little white bugs. Probably some type of springtails. (Although they look different from springtails ive seen in pictures. )
I also saw one other bug, that looked like a very small soil mite or possibly a Root Aphid.
It was to quick for me to get a good look or catch it.

But here's what doesnt add up for me about the RA's..
If i had RA's, wouldnt i be able to find more evidence? I looked very hard through all my pots and did root autopsies on the harvest ones with a 30x loupe.
The roots look kinda fuked up but couldnt find any RA's.

Also, my plants in veg are all pretty healthy.
I even have some seedlings going and they look fine.
Its my understanding that if i had RA's, my plants in veg would be messed up too...?..

So im thinking maybe its some kind of soil disease??
I want to take a core soil sample and get it tested; but i have no idea how to do that?
Should i call a local university?
Does logan labs do that type of soil testing??


I have another round of plants that are supposed to be going into flower any day now. Obviously im gonna hold off.. but i really need to get this figured out so i can get them into flower.
It looks like this current round isnt gonna make it and ima need to have something to harvest soon.

I grow in a mix of Sunshine #4 Advanced, EWC, perlite, and myco.
Using some General Organics products, with occasional OG Biowar teas.
Room temps are 78/72
R/O water

Here's some pictures of the sick plant in question.

Right before it went into 12/12

Here she is Day 32

 

[pappy masonjar]

Cont'

Cont'

the buds have completely stopped growing

I definitely havent been overwatering.
Actually, i think i have only watered this plant twice in the past few weeks.
One of which was a full strength OG Biowar tea.
The soil mix and nute regiment is the same as ive been using successfully for many runs.

 

[Bulldog420]

On that leaf that is curled over, is there a rust like residue on the plant? Russet hemp mites could be the issue, and you would need a 100x loop to ID them. Wish I knew more, good luck.

 

[pappy masonjar]

Veg room

Veg room

Heres some picture i took yesterday of my veg room.
Things look alright in there, which is kinda baffling me.
Ive heard RA's eat seedlings for lunch.

10 gal smartpots (the next round)

seedlings

 

[pappy masonjar]

On that leaf that is curled over, is there a rust like residue on the plant? Russet hemp mites could be the issue, and you would need a 100x loop to ID them. Wish I knew more, good luck.

First off, thank you for stopping by.
I havent seen any residue on the leaves.
I do scoop my plants tips semi-regularly for Broad mites. Havent seen any bugs on the actual plants.

Because this problem only seems to be affecting plants that are done growing roots(week 4+ of flower), i feel like it has to be either RA's or some type of root disease..

Its almost frustrating me that i cant find any RA's.. at least then i would know what needs done.

Im half-tempted to just dump some Orthene, Pyganic 5%, Azamax cocktail on the veg plants.. spray the room down with Essentria ic3, and put Met 52 in my new soil.. and hope for the best.

I do wanna get a soil analysis, im hoping somebody can direct me to a good lab.
Im gonna call a couple local universities to see if they can help.. i just hope they dont test the roots to see what im growing

 

[Redbuddz]

I've used nematodes in the past to rid my soil of fungus nats. Not sure if they will help your issue but I know nematodes eat many types of bug larvae, they won't harm your plants and they're cheap. Not sure where you are and how available they are to you but I think you can buy them online and have them overnighted. Neem oil might be another option. It's my understanding that coating the top of the soil helps to control bugs in the soil by coating the larvae which prevents the larvae from hatching. Neem is cheap and won't hurt your plants. I hope this info helps but I'm sure you are likely aware of these methods so the best I can say is Good Luck

Keep on Growing

redbuddz

 

[pappy masonjar]

I've used nematodes in the past to rid my soil of fungus nats. Not sure if they will help your issue but I know nematodes eat many types of bug larvae, they won't harm your plants and they're cheap. Not sure where you are and how available they are to you but I think you can buy them online and have them overnighted. Neem oil might be another option. It's my understanding that coating the top of the soil helps to control bugs in the soil by coating the larvae which prevents the larvae from hatching. Neem is cheap and won't hurt your plants. I hope this info helps but I'm sure you are likely aware of these methods so the best I can say is Good Luck

Keep on Growing

redbuddz

All input is appreciated brother


You reminded me to mention.. I definitely do have a few stray fungus gnats flying around.
The OG biowar keeps their numbers very low though. so i wasn't stressing them.
But now I'm gonna have to get rid off them completely, because if i do have a soil disease, the gnats could spread it from plant to plant.

 

[ozzieAI]

the fact that you watered a plant in flowering and that size only twice in the last few weeks tells me you have root issues...

seaweed is a great root conditioner and mixed with pure neem oil has worked for me in the past..

meanwhile you can foliar some nutes on the plants to bypass the roots and return some condition and hopefully bud growth...

good luck

 

[EclipseFour20]

Soil pH? Could be low...which would lock out all your nutes.

 

[Midnight Tokar]

I've read quite a few times that some peoples problems with RA's didn't show up until several weeks into flower. When I had RA's I had some very minor P-K issues (one of the early signs I now know) until 3 weeks into flower then all hell cut loose. I was able to limp along until a slightly early harvest with the aid of lots of EWC teas. It took me 2 rounds to get completely rid of them. In my organic mix I now use Diatomaceous Earth, Kelp Meal, Crab Meal and Neem Cake, all are supposed to help keep the nasties away.

 

[caredrivensf]

bust out a 200x microscope player looks like broad mites to me

 

[caredrivensf]

I T would be easy to identify root issues all you got to do is look at em. Test the PH of your runoff if your concerned about PH lockout and your PPMs if your thinking its salt. Salt usually leads to PH issues and vice versa

 

[stihgnobevoli]

Can i ask how often you water the plants in the flower room?

like someone said earlier looks like root issues, from your pics looks like underwatering. those airpots they dry out too fast for me. constant battle against underwater.

but those leaves you show and the overall look of plants and size of buds make me think underwatered. dry spots in the soil. when you lift up the pots are there little bugs running from the light? look like little black gray things if you try and catch em they jump/teleport away.

the outside of the pot was constantly dry from the airflow. roots never went out from the transplant. middle stayed wet outside stayed dry. if you're gonna use that hygrometer i would stick it in at an angle from the middle toward outside edge.

Fabric pot

plastic pot. same mix.

hope you don't mind the pics.

 

[pappy masonjar]

the fact that you watered a plant in flowering and that size only twice in the last few weeks tells me you have root issues...

seaweed is a great root conditioner and mixed with pure neem oil has worked for me in the past..

meanwhile you can foliar some nutes on the plants to bypass the roots and return some condition and hopefully bud growth...

good luck

Thanks, good tips.
I usually dont foliar feed plants once they have buds, but in this case i will.

I've read quite a few times that some peoples problems with RA's didn't show up until several weeks into flower. When I had RA's I had some very minor P-K issues (one of the early signs I now know) until 3 weeks into flower then all hell cut loose. I was able to limp along until a slightly early harvest with the aid of lots of EWC teas. It took me 2 rounds to get completely rid of them. In my organic mix I now use Diatomaceous Earth, Kelp Meal, Crab Meal and Neem Cake, all are supposed to help keep the nasties away.

How hard was it for you to ID an actual root aphid?
Did you just find one? Was there lots of them?
What magnification did you need?
How did you get rid of them? (orthene, pyganic?)

Sorry for the 20 questions.
Some people say they are near impossible to get rid off. Im glad to hear you say you succeeded

bust out a 200x microscope player looks like broad mites to me

I thought broad mites cause them crazy curled up leaves?
And they would be fucking my plants up in veg too i think.
But i do check the plants tips sometimes, with a 100x, and i don't see any bugs on the actual plants.
Im pretty sure this is a root zone problem.

 

[pappy masonjar]

Can i ask how often you water the plants in the flower room?

It varies. Normally i grow in 5 gal smart pots and i water every other day. Except during mid flower i usually have to water daily.
This is the first time i have grown in a 25 gal pot. but i would expect to have to water this plant every 3 days if it was healthy.
I think ive only watered like once a week.

like someone said earlier looks like root issues, from your pics looks like underwatering. those airpots they dry out too fast for me. constant battle against underwater.

Im positive its not underwatering. Ive been EXTREMELY vigilant with this plant. I wouldnt start a thread if i wasnt over/underwatering.
Like i said, this problem started last run. With 5 plants that where in 5 gallon pots.

but those leaves you show and the overall look of plants and size of buds make me think underwatered. dry spots in the soil. when you lift up the pots are there little bugs running from the light? look like little black gray things if you try and catch em they jump/teleport away.

The only bugs i have seen are Fungus Gnats, Springtails( i think), and the little H. Miles-looking bug that could have been an RA but it was too quick for me to get a close look.
I cant lift this 25 gal pot because its attached to a scrog, but when i lift my pots in veg i dont see any bugs running.


View Image
the outside of the pot was constantly dry from the airflow. roots never went out from the transplant. middle stayed wet outside stayed dry. if you're gonna use that hygrometer i would stick it in at an angle from the middle toward outside edge.

I move that meter around.
And I gotta say, i really like the smart pots. Ive used them for years with success

View Image
Fabric pot

View Image
plastic pot. same mix.

hope you don't mind the pics.

 

[Corpsey]

Get a picture of any bug you can in your soil, so we can get an ID before throwing everything at it. The fungus gnats you have seen may be a winged root aphid.

 

[stihgnobevoli]

that was my best guess. like i said the leaves are drooping like it's underwatered and the overall health of the plant is lacking as if the roots are damaged.

 

[Midnight Tokar]

How hard was it for you to ID an actual root aphid?
Did you just find one? Was there lots of them?
What magnification did you need?
How did you get rid of them? (orthene, pyganic?)

Sorry for the 20 questions.
Some people say they are near impossible to get rid off. Im glad to hear you say you succeeded

I was able to scope them with my 30-100x Radio Shack scope, don't remember what power I was on though. They move pretty fast so I had to kind of pre-set the focus and then crumble some soil and look fast. They were pretty easy to recognize after Googling Root Aphids, I had red-assed root aphids and along with the red the twin "exhausts" were easy to see. I saw lots of them along with the FG larvae.

I used the No Pest strips during the second grow and thought I got rid of them but had some issues, just not as bad as the first time and recognized them while still in veg so I used Bayer Complete Insect Killer for Turf and then vegged for I think 4 more weeks. I also had Fungus Gnats both times so I started letting the soil get pretty dry between watering.

Being as I was using my own seeds and had plenty to spare I re-used that same soil as an experiment. This time I used the organic amendments I previously mentioned, all at 1 Tablespoon per gallon of soil, and then moistened and let set for 4-6 weeks. I also bombed the whole house with foggers over a weekend and then scrubbed everything in the grow room with a bleach solution before starting a new grow.

That was two grows ago, I'm still using that same soil and not a single Fungus Gnat or Root Aphid has been spotted and no problems at all!.

 

[caredrivensf]

Thanks, good tips.
I usually dont foliar feed plants once they have buds, but in this case i will.




How hard was it for you to ID an actual root aphid?
Did you just find one? Was there lots of them?
What magnification did you need?
How did you get rid of them? (orthene, pyganic?)

Sorry for the 20 questions.
Some people say they are near impossible to get rid off. Im glad to hear you say you succeeded




I thought broad mites cause them crazy curled up leaves?
And they would be fucking my plants up in veg too i think.
But i do check the plants tips sometimes, with a 100x, and i don't see any bugs on the actual plants.
Im pretty sure this is a root zone problem.

Then here you go player

http://www.dutchmaster.com.au/?language=english&page=product&product=GOLD_RANGE_ZONE

 

[pappy masonjar]

Soil pH? Could be low...which would lock out all your nutes.

Im not gonna lie. i dont really test my ph..
its never been a problem, using R/O water and general organic nutrients.
The cheap soil moisture/ph meter i use reads the soil ph at 7, but i doubt that thing is accurate.
I guess im gonna order a soil ph meter. and maybe a water one too.

Get a picture of any bug you can in your soil, so we can get an ID before throwing everything at it. The fungus gnats you have seen may be a winged root aphid.

Ill try and get some pics but i dont think my camera can capture anything super small. Ill try my best though.
Im positive the flyers im seeing are fungus gnats. They have the mosquito bodies, rounded wings, and they fly like they're having a seizure.
Except I did see one lone, other type of flyer, about a month ago. Im pretty sure it came from a compost pile behind my house.
Is this a winged root aphid?
It seemed big to me...?.
what do you guys think??

I was able to scope them with my 30-100x Radio Shack scope, don't remember what power I was on though. They move pretty fast so I had to kind of pre-set the focus and then crumble some soil and look fast. They were pretty easy to recognize after Googling Root Aphids, I had red-assed root aphids and along with the red the twin "exhausts" were easy to see. I saw lots of them along with the FG larvae.

I used the No Pest strips during the second grow and thought I got rid of them but had some issues, just not as bad as the first time and recognized them while still in veg so I used Bayer Complete Insect Killer for Turf and then vegged for I think 4 more weeks. I also had Fungus Gnats both times so I started letting the soil get pretty dry between watering.

Being as I was using my own seeds and had plenty to spare I re-used that same soil as an experiment. This time I used the organic amendments I previously mentioned, all at 1 Tablespoon per gallon of soil, and then moistened and let set for 4-6 weeks. I also bombed the whole house with foggers over a weekend and then scrubbed everything in the grow room with a bleach solution before starting a new grow.

That was two grows ago, I'm still using that same soil and not a single Fungus Gnat or Root Aphid has been spotted and no problems at all!.

Thanks man. i appreciate that info.

Ive been looking all through my soil and can't find anything.
But my roots dont look nearly as healthy as they should. And my veg plants aren't really drinking like they should.
Ima try and get a soil sample out this week.
Im not sure what else to do