Need help buying a new extractor - Large Scale Processor

[icdog]

You really shouldn't even if its possible put 1lb in a 1.5x24, likely a type, at that packing density it would be a real challenge for the solvent to get through. 1lb is good at a 2x36.

 

[Gray Wolf]

Certain CLS makers have been saying that the Caresaver will not leak oil into the butane stream if you use a "separator" although what kind, how it works, and whether it really prevents contamination is all unknown to me.

Can you comment on this "separator"? Have you heard of such a thing, Gray Wolf?
It sounded like hoohaw to me, but I can't find anything about it.

All oil bath compressors use an oil separator to remove most of the pump oil from the discharge stream, that is how they stay on line without requiring regular oil replenishment. Oil bath separators don't remove oil into the parts per millionth level because it isn't necessary in their application and they aren't capable of doing so.

We are testing Vici Metronics butane filters capable of scrubbing the discharge from those oil separators to parts per billionth levels. We've had good success scrubbing bulk butane, but they are not cheap, and require regular regeneration or replacement.

Besides the added expense of replacing them on some schedule, we then come to the second point, which is that the Caresaver Universal is slow compared to other alternatives that we also have scheduled for test when they arrive.

Once you move from the oil less categories, there are larger pumps rated for R-600 and more attractively priced. Some of those manufacturers are willing to run joint R&D, instead of holding a cross in front of them selves and chanting demonic exorcisms.

My prediction is that within the next six months more opportunities will avail themselves, with so many bright minds focused on it and the market potential.

 

[Gray Wolf]

You really shouldn't even if its possible put 1lb in a 1.5x24, likely a type, at that packing density it would be a real challenge for the solvent to get through. 1lb is good at a 2x36.

My guess is a misspelled number.

We get about 4.1 grams per cubic inch, when we reduce the material to about 10/15% water content, and pass it through a 10 mesh screen first.

We get less when packing loosely broken nugs.

A 1 1/2" sanitary tube has an ID of about 1.37", which has an area of about 1.47 square inches. That gives a 24" column about 35 cubic inches, which at 4.1 grams/in cubed equals about 145 grams.

 

[Fat Thor]

I'm about halfway through the "Terpenation at Terpene Station" thread, holy shit, tons of info in there. I have a muuuuuch better understanding of the system now, can't wait to get all the way through it...

 

[pharmco]

All oil bath compressors use an oil separator to remove most of the pump oil from the discharge stream, that is how they stay on line without requiring regular oil replenishment. Oil bath separators don't remove oil into the parts per millionth level because it isn't necessary in their application and they aren't capable of doing so.

We are testing Vici Metronics butane filters capable of scrubbing the discharge from those oil separators to parts per billionth levels. We've had good success scrubbing bulk butane, but they are not cheap, and require regular regeneration or replacement.

Besides the added expense of replacing them on some schedule, we then come to the second point, which is that the Caresaver Universal is slow compared to other alternatives that we also have scheduled for test when they arrive.

Once you move from the oil less categories, there are larger pumps rated for R-600 and more attractively priced. Some of those manufacturers are willing to run joint R&D, instead of holding a cross in front of them selves and chanting demonic exorcisms.

My prediction is that within the next six months more opportunities will avail themselves, with so many bright minds focused on it and the market potential.

Thank you very much Gray Wolf! I suspected as much, I got a bad feeling just seeing those Caresavers. It's Ironfist Extractors, to any and all curious. They are on instagram, and are claiming to be the only I-502 approved CLS company. I'm not aware of whether that is true, but I think their CLS may be lubricated with snake oil.

 

[Permacultuure]

Thank you very much Gray Wolf! I suspected as much, I got a bad feeling just seeing those Caresavers. It's Ironfist Extractors, to any and all curious. They are on instagram, and are claiming to be the only I-502 approved CLS company. I'm not aware of whether that is true, but I think their CLS may be lubricated with snake oil.

They are i502 approved but the approved system cost 15.5k or something like that.

They are basically biting ETS, even with the expansion column.....and the fact that they're selling systems with caresavers, wonder if the new owners knew at least one was used
ETS is filled with talented extractors in their production facility......I don't believe the same is true with Ironfist.......great welds tho

 

[BlueOrganics]

Terpp Extractors offers a system that is I-502 compliant for just over 5 grand from what I hear. A lot of things they offer don't seem to be on the website yet.

 

[Gray Wolf]

Terpp Extractors offers a system that is I-502 compliant for just over 5 grand from what I hear. A lot of things they offer don't seem to be on the website yet.

The Mk III, IV, and V designs were reviewed by a third party Registered Professional Mechanical Engineer and certified to meet ANSI and ASME.

WA Liquor Control Commission asked me for that information, but when I attempted to convey it to them, I was told that the rules had changed and it was up to the individual operators to prove to the fire marshal that their installation met not only ANSI and ASME, but NEC and NFPA requirements as well.

That of course is the part where the facility, pumps and electrical systems come into the picture, all of which must be considered when getting fire marshal approval.

You can meet those requirements using the Mk IV and V systems using a pneumatic Haskel recovery pump, with jacketed columns and pots, in properly ventilated sprinkled enclosures, with static flooring, and no electrical beyond thermocouples, hydrocarbon sniffers, and heat sensors.

On the automated stuff, you can control the system remotely, using using pneumatically operated valves.

Clearly those things are expensive, but for commercial installations there is little to no tolerance for shortcuts, so they are expensive and the cost of doing business.

As such, they become part of the formula leading to projected discounted rate of Return On Investment, and Return On Assets, that can be compared to other processes, as well as to determine if the return justifies the effort.

With legalization comes regulation to insure quality and public safety, and to meet those regulations will require deeper pockets than personal runs in a backyard, but ostensibly produce a return justifying the effort or it is a no go in the planning stages.

 

[Fat Thor]

What is the difference between the MK III and MK IV?

 

[pharmco]

They are i502 approved but the approved system cost 15.5k or something like that.

They are basically biting ETS, even with the expansion column.....and the fact that they're selling systems with caresavers, wonder if the new owners knew at least one was used
ETS is filled with talented extractors in their production facility......I don't believe the same is true with Ironfist.......great welds tho

I've been cussed out a few times over instagram by them, truth be told. I love the welds, but everyone else that works there seems quite ignorant, particularly whoever mans the IG. Makes me need to question the claims they make, and find out for myself, when it feels like I'm being hyped the whole way for possible snake oil.

Also still waiting to see some of their systems in the field. I've been looking but I seen nothing.

 

[Permacultuure]

What is the difference between the MK III and MK IV?

Come on bro.....read a little bit, check out skunk pharm.......

 

[Permacultuure]

The Mk III, IV, and V designs were reviewed by a third party Registered Professional Mechanical Engineer and certified to meet ANSI and ASME.

WA Liquor Control Commission asked me for that information, but when I attempted to convey it to them, I was told that the rules had changed and it was up to the individual operators to prove to the fire marshal that their installation met not only ANSI and ASME, but NEC and NFPA requirements as well.

That of course is the part where the facility, pumps and electrical systems come into the picture, all of which must be considered when getting fire marshal approval.

You can meet those requirements using the Mk IV and V systems using a pneumatic Haskel recovery pump, with jacketed columns and pots, in properly ventilated sprinkled enclosures, with static flooring, and no electrical beyond thermocouples, hydrocarbon sniffers, and heat sensors.

On the automated stuff, you can control the system remotely, using using pneumatically operated valves.

Clearly those things are expensive, but for commercial installations there is little to no tolerance for shortcuts, so they are expensive and the cost of doing business.

As such, they become part of the formula leading to projected discounted rate of Return On Investment, and Return On Assets, that can be compared to other processes, as well as to determine if the return justifies the effort.

With legalization comes regulation to insure quality and public safety, and to meet those regulations will require deeper pockets than personal runs in a backyard, but ostensibly produce a return justifying the effort or it is a no go in the planning stages.

Nailed it!! As expected....

 

[Gray Wolf]

What is the difference between the MK III and MK IV?

A Mk III is based on a 6" X 6" collection pot and the Mk IV on a 10" X 12" collection pot.

The Mk III with a 1 1/2" X 24" column, processes around 1/3# per run and the Mk IV up to around 3.7# with a 4" X 36" column.

 

[Fat Thor]

A Mk III is based on a 6" X 6" collection pot and the Mk IV on a 10" X 12" collection pot.

The Mk III with a 1 1/2" X 24" column, processes around 1/3# per run and the Mk IV up to around 3.7# with a 4" X 36" column.

Can the MKIV work properly with 1lb columns? are there any adverse effects of going with a small column on a larger extractor like the MKIV?

 

[Chonkski]

How in the world do you get a lb in a 24 x 1.5? Has to be a typo. I have a 36 x 1.5 and don't ever get even 200g in there. Are you pulverizing your material and packing with a press? LOL

Sorry guys I should have worded this differently, I use this size column for when I only have a pound or two to run. I fit a pound between 3-4 columns of this size.

But having 6" spool ontop of the 10" makes it to where I can run multiple columns without stress.

I still only have a 50# tank so I haven't ran my 4"x36" columns yet.

 

[Gray Wolf]

Can the MKIV work properly with 1lb columns? are there any adverse effects of going with a small column on a larger extractor like the MKIV?

The Mk IV will operate with a 2" X 6" column, to a 4" X 36" column, and those sizes in between.

 

[Terpp]

Can the MKIV work properly with 1lb columns? are there any adverse effects of going with a small column on a larger extractor like the MKIV?

It can just fine. This weekend we did a training session with a new client and their MK4 using a 1lb column.

 

[Fat Thor]

Mk IV with a Haskel Pneumatic recovery pump here i come.........

Spoke to Austin at Terrp and got things rolling, can't wait to see him in a week for my training session. Thanks for all the info guys!

 

[Ironfist]

This is interesting!! I'll clear this up we only have ever bought 1 used caresaver and we use it for demos!! Find out your facts before you claim anything!

 

[Gray Wolf]

I have endeavored to stay out of name brand debates, but will soon publish a follow up to Joe's posting on our SPR site, outlining generic certification and feature issues that purchasers should be aware of.

However, I ran across a booth selling Extraction King versions of the Mk IIIA for $8K, shouting out to the passing crowd, "1000 grams of shatter in one day!" That price included the vacuum and Appion G-5 recovery pump, plus the hoses, as well as a second 6" spool clamped to the bottom. The Extraction King included a conventional sight glass, but was otherwise configured as a Terpenator.

Part quality was about par to most Chinese built Mk III's, but I can't attest to the assembly quality without testing.

I never identified myself, but asked one of the young men manning the booth the critical questions, whom related that the design was designed by his friend, whom he declined to identify, and unlike a Terpenator, it flooded from the bottom.

I asked him if the Appions were rated for the butane and he said that they were, though the manufacturer had published a letter warning folks away, simply to cover their ass, and that the alternatives were far more expensive than the $1200 wholesale Appion G-5.

We had this conversation in front of my son and an associate, so it will be hard to deny in court, and I could hear further outrageous claims coming from other salesmen in the booth, clearly directed at the naive and uninitiated.

Brothers and sisters, that kind of egregious behavior will get us all painted with the same brush and be our joint destruction, so here is fair warning:

I'll fully support ya'll whom are legitimately selling a quality product that meets upcoming regulation, but I will be your worst nightmare to those looking to swoop in and rape the market with high prices for substandard products, using untruthful claims.

Like with the young man whom never knew he was making outrageous claims to the man who invented the device he was peddling, I won't identify myself.

I also seriously disappointed by one of the mainstream suppliers weld quality inside their vessel. While brushed to remove the oxidized surface on the outside, the inside was still the blackened as welded finish, revealing that the shielding was inadequate, or was removed before the metal cooled below the reactive state.

Bead appearance also revealed high heat, heavy deposition rates, and washes to smooth out irregular beads. Such a weld design would not receive ASME approval, and such a weld would be cause for rejection if inspected to ASME standards.

I will be publishing information on our site about ASME weld standards, so as to educate the buying public, and encourage those of ya'll whose production quality is not yet in control, to address it, because unregulated days are numbered and you will be called on quality.

What is the shop rate for an additional 30 minutes to do the welds per ASME standards, and give it an appearance you can be proud of?