DabLab Reloaded-- back to vertville

[Miraculous Meds]

I don't think having the wick/drain in the water level for coco, especially when trying to establish the plant is a good choice at all. Ive had this problem and am now keeping the water level below the wick/drain. Dhf is right that's mg showing, but from overwatering prob. since u use this same nutrient and ratio with success in coco before. So don't add more mg, just get the roots established, then go on about ur schedule.

 

[Miraculous Meds]

I hand watered 5 gal buckets of coco in ppk pots every couple of days before I put them in the system. then I started with watering a couple times a day after they established in the system. Towards the end I definitely got water logged shitty roots that stalled things out. Luckily I saw flower farmers issues and fix by taking the plants off the system and going dtw and still pulling thru. I think part of what saved me from total failure was I established the roots in the 5 gal pot early, started watering slowly, and was using a traditional 5 gal bucket from lowes, so the pot was tall and narrow, keeping the perched water, too wet coco prob in the very bottom of the pot.

So im still using coco, but now the really course shit, and keeping my water level low in the system. It seems to be doing well, but I haven't had a clean run from the start with this new strategy

 

[DabOnDabs]

This was certainly the case.



Increasing CalNit will shift cation ballance away from Mg as well. A simple reduction in CalNit may solve your issue.

Im almost certain this is it. In the past, i usually watered with 300:300, but every few days my veg water would run out and i would use 360:240 while the rez was refilling. Thanks for all the input guys, yal help me work through problems sp fast

 

[DabOnDabs]

M

 

[DabOnDabs]

If the little one`s that haven`t grown with lil to no roots built have only been watered to a minimum , then it`s most likely to me that the perched water table in your upper containers are too high wicking too much juice from the bottom and causing the over-watering effect , but that`s simply a guess bro......just tryin ta help Dabster...

Since they`re ripped out that is , just tryin ta help avoid the same problem again....

Peace....DHF........

Isnt the point of the air gap to remove the perched water table out of the top container and into the tailpiece? My air gap has been right at 4"....

So, would a larger gap be more beneficial, or no wick as miraculous said??

 

[Miraculous Meds]

Keep the water level lower than the drain/wick used for the ppk. U lose the advantage of wicking up water, but u still have the advantage of keeping the PWT in the drain/wick. Maybe once ur roots are established well, u can raise the water level to cover the wick system. But I haven't gotten that far yet.

I think this would be a better way to start a ppk using coco, so the coco doesn't get waterlogged and screw the roots.

 

[Miraculous Meds]

Isnt the point of the air gap to remove the perched water table out of the top container and into the tailpiece? My air gap has been right at 4"....

So, would a larger gap be more beneficial, or no wick as miraculous said??

Bingo, that's my opinion with coco at least.

 

[LSWM]

Im almost certain this is it. In the past, i usually watered with 300:300, but every few days my veg water would run out and i would use 360:240 while the rez was refilling. Thanks for all the input guys, yal help me work through problems sp fast

360:240 converted to EC at .5 is 0.72:0.48. I like it!

I run .70 ec Jack's .50 ec CalNit. No pH adjuster. RO water is .05 EC.

I don't believe running equal parts is the proper ratio, but I know you are following advice from D9. The small volume mixing instructions for JR Peter's recommends 5 tsp Jack's to 4 tsp CalNit. This 5:4 ratio by volume comes out to the 7:5 ratio by EC/PPM.

 

[mr. gt]

Dam dab's. got 2.5 pages of help from fellow supporters. must have some street cred. haha.

I love your circles man. I was dreaming about them since I first saw Heath's. I was posting about doing them back in '10 and now they're reality. I have full size 2 car garage in April I may need help with....

 

[Ichabod Crane]

This was certainly the case.
Increasing CalNit will shift cation ballance away from Mg as well. A simple reduction in CalNit may solve your issue.

My thought here as well. You will get the balance of the calcium to magnesium out of wack. Then your plant has to take the calcium and can't get the magnesium.

These plants went from 1 gallon containers, filled out with HEALTHY roots, to 5 gallon containers on friday. Maybe DHF is right about the Mg. Ill add some epsom salts to next feed

Don't add but reduce the calcium nitrate. To much of both is not a good thing.

Also maybe the jump from one gallon to five gallon was to much at one time. If the roots are not in the outer layer of media it can't get the moisture out fast enough to bring fresh air into the center were the roots need it. The water acts as a block.

Also it your roots are spiraled they may not spread to the outer layer with out some pruning.

 

[Mister_D]

...I would assume your mothers arent cookin under HPS's tho... Probably just coolin out under some t'5s no??

No actually those mothers are sitting under 1200w of hps, and grow on average 1-2 inches per day . I get the similar results under my t8's (rarely use t5's any more after doing some testing) as the light levels are similar with the amount of shop lights I run in a given space. I know you've read in a million posts to never let your coco dry out, but that is often interpreted wrong as "dry" means different things to different people. You shouldn't allow it to get as dry as soil (though most people don't let their soil dry out enough either), but as a general rule your plant should be allowed to absorb roughly 50% of the weight of a freshly watered pot before being watered again. At least until the root system has filled the pot completely (think root bound). Then you can pretty much go nuts with multi feeds.

In 3 gallon containers, I was having to HANDfeed 2x per day minimum. they dont work for my setup.

Was this using straight coco or your 80% perlite mix? Watering straight coco and 80/20 perlite coco blend is two very different things.

5 gallon containers are what i've always used. Get plants big enough in veg (feeding ~ 1x per day), and you can go hard on the feedings in flower (I was hittin em 8x per day when using 80% perlite), probably wouldnt go above 3 or 4x per day in straight coco.

Like I said above 80/20 and straight coco require two completely different approaches to watering.

These plants went from 1 gallon containers, filled out with HEALTHY roots, to 5 gallon containers on friday. Maybe DHF is right about the Mg. Ill add some epsom salts to next feed

Have you grown successfully with your current nute ratio in straight coco? It's very possible that your ratio is off for coco, as d9 designed his recipe around turface. DHF is right about the mg def., but it's not because you don't have enough already in the media (jacks has a lot of mg in it remember), it's being locked out for some reason.

 

[Mister_D]

Isnt the point of the air gap to remove the perched water table out of the top container and into the tailpiece? My air gap has been right at 4"....

So, would a larger gap be more beneficial, or no wick as miraculous said??

Yes it removes the PWT, but it's also a way to adjust the relative moisture level of your media. (larger gap = drier media, smaller gap = wetter media). Being coco wicks better it's necessary to have a larger gap (I had to adjust my gap for veg, even with my super airy blend). I've been experimenting with running the system passive just to be able to monitor/adjust moisture levels for best growth. Current gap is set at 6". The shallow pots are nice because you can poke a finger all the way to the bottom to see if it's too wet, or not wet enough . The PPK is a brilliant system due in part to it's flexibility. Just got to know what each parts functions are, and figure out how to best manipulate them for your chosen media

 

[delta9nxs]

Isnt the point of the air gap to remove the perched water table out of the top container and into the tailpiece? My air gap has been right at 4"....

So, would a larger gap be more beneficial, or no wick as miraculous said??

is this in coco?

in coco i ran a 5" air gap. while the pwt will be drained coco has perhaps the highest wicking potential of anything i've tried.

moisture is retained in the media on a gradient curve. least in the top and most in the bottom. by increasing the air gap you can run the bottom a little drier.

coco should be wave pulse fed.

the biggest coco plant i grew was about 22.5 oz's dry and was grown in a 3.5 gal bucket with 2.5 gal of coco.

it got about a quart every 30 minutes to an hour, depending on stage of life.

i've still got pics of it somewhere.

 

[delta9nxs]

i just went back and looked at the plant pics and saw that you were feeding 300 ppm and 300 ppm. this is wrong.

600 ppm should be 360 ppm jack's and 240 ppm calcinit.

looking at the elemental ratios your 300/300 mix greatly reduces the mag as it's all in the jack's part. at the same time increasing the calcium, which is all in the calcinit.

you don't have a deficiency, you have a stimulation or antagonism.

adding that the instructions for small batches calls for 1/2 tsp of each part per gal. this will produce approx 1050 ppm at .5 or 2.1 ec.

are you pre-charging your coco?

 

[DabOnDabs]

i just went back and looked at the plant pics and saw that you were feeding 300 ppm and 300 ppm. this is wrong.

600 ppm should be 360 ppm jack's and 240 ppm calcinit.

looking at the elemental ratios your 300/300 mix greatly reduces the mag as it's all in the jack's part. at the same time increasing the calcium, which is all in the calcinit.

you don't have a deficiency, you have a stimulation or antagonism.

adding that the instructions for small batches calls for 1/2 tsp of each part per gal. this will produce approx 1050 ppm at .5 or 2.1 ec.

are you pre-charging your coco?

Just so you know, my PPK's are floor dry, and I also have some 5 gallon pots of coco, no ppk.



When I was first learning to use Jacks in Coco, I was under the impression that 360:240 was a bad mix for vegging... Too much K, combined with the fact that coco already has K...

So I have been vegging with 300:300, for about a year with no problems. . . Every few days I would have to feed them with my flower mix, because my veg res would run out.... Everything has always been fine. Green all the way around, no deficiencies...

In flower, after about the first week, 300:300 starts to become a little N heavy, at which point I have switched over to 360:240 for the remainder of flower. This is how I have had my best results with Jacks.


Mister D; Yes, I have used this veg---> flower 3 or 4 full runs now. No problems.

Some of these mixes have been like....280:320 even, Because I thought the yellowing was N or Ca def. Wrong.




So, I guess the question becomes; If 360:240 is a bad mix for coco, what is the best way to run Jacks In coco?

Some people use a 3:2:1 mix, with epsom salts...

Theres like...15 pages in this thread somewhere with all the discussion on how I ended up with my feeding schedule...


As far as precharging the Coco; I just water my plants in with full strength nutes usually. I buy the nice, prewashed, precharged, expensive stuff, and usually have no problems transplanting or vegging.

 

[DabOnDabs]

Like I said above 80/20 and straight coco require two completely different approaches to watering.







Have you grown successfully with your current nute ratio in straight coco? It's very possible that your ratio is off for coco, as d9 designed his recipe around turface. DHF is right about the mg def., but it's not because you don't have enough already in the media (jacks has a lot of mg in it remember), it's being locked out for some reason.

I was having to water 2x per day using straight Coco, in 3 gallon buckets, as soon as I put the plants in my flower room. I dropped the 80/20 perlite mix, and then moved to 50/50... and then dropped the perlite altogether.


I think too much Calcnit is locking out the Mg. I'll give em a couple feeds of 360:240 over the next few days, and report back.

 

[DabOnDabs]

Dam dab's. got 2.5 pages of help from fellow supporters. must have some street cred. haha.

I love your circles man. I was dreaming about them since I first saw Heath's. I was posting about doing them back in '10 and now they're reality. I have full size 2 car garage in April I may need help with....

I like the vert section. Helpful peeps around here.

It seems to me that all of us watchin each other's backs keeps all of us in a better place, and helps keep us all honest. I know i truly appreciate when someone is able to look at my pictures, or read my log, and deliver some constructive criticism..


It helps me learn, and I'm sure it helps the rest of yal too, even if you're laughing at my mistakes

 

[Mister_D]

2 grams per gal. of each, jacks and cal-nit has been working great for me . I use it for clones, vegging plants, and during flower. After a decent amount of runs, I've noticed it's just slightly high in N for most plants after stretch. Currently experimenting with something much closer to the 360:240 for after stretch, but it's solid for pre-veg through the end of stretch. Actually works well all the way through, but the quest for dialage never ends .

Depending on your source water you may have to dilute after mixing. I feed veg 1.0 EC and up it to 1.2 on the first day of 12/12.

 

[DabOnDabs]

2 grams per gal. of each, jacks and cal-nit has been working great for me . I use it for clones, vegging plants, and during flower. After a decent amount of runs, I've noticed it's just slightly high in N for most plants after stretch. Currently experimenting with something much closer to the 360:240 for after stretch, but it's solid for pre-veg through the end of stretch. Actually works well all the way through, but the quest for dialage never ends .


Depending on your source water you may have to dilute after mixing. I feed veg 1.0 EC and up it to 1.2 on the first day of 12/12.

After stretch, try the 360:240 until the end of week 5, then try slowly dropping the calcnit. Thats how my best looking/tasting/flowers have come out...

What does 2 grams of each end up ppm wise? (I like measuring with the meter because I never make the same amount of water twice)

I'm using RO..

I guess I could head downstairs and find out my damn self. I think I've done this before, AND I KNOW We've had this discussion before. Lmfao.

Thanks for your help again broheimisberg

 

[Mister_D]

I was having to water 2x per day using straight Coco, in 3 gallon buckets, as soon as I put the plants in my flower room. I dropped the 80/20 perlite mix, and then moved to 50/50... and then dropped the perlite altogether.


I think too much Calcnit is locking out the Mg. I'll give em a couple feeds of 360:240 over the next few days, and report back.

One of a few things was happening in that case, either you were over watering, humidity was way too low, too much air movement on your pots, or you weren't adding enough water/nutes per feeding. There is no way any plant other than large tree could be sucking a 3 gal. pot dry more than once per day. Just not possible bro. You were losing water somewhere for sure, but it wasn't being absorbed by your plants .