Ceramic Metal Halide (CMH)

[DrFever]

Funny stuff.

Here it was only a week ago that you were espousing the huge superiority of 3-watt LEDs over 5-watt, and now you have a big treble hook in your lip for (4) fixtures that use 5-watt chips. Of course, they are only driving them at a shade over 2 watts because trying to drive a 15"-square fixture at 700 watts would take a fan that could convert a DC-10 from jet propulsion to a propeller. The next time that a quality 700 watt (or even 300 watt) fixture is sold for under $300 will be the first time, and it's still a long ways off.

Good luck.

true 3 watts are the better but again for the price cant compete for running 4 of them in 4 corners vertical they are supplemental lighting as 600 watts of plasma and two Gavita 1150 watters will really be doing the show in a ppk style tree grow
still they say 3.5 x 3.5 is there canopy so with 5 watt about right but like your Diy LED you never mentioned what it cost yea probably the price of 6 - 7 of these and from what i been reading many growers are happy with what there getting
And you of all people should know actual draw is around 300 -380 watts for there so called 700 watt cheap either way what would it cost for four CMH bulbs ballasts complete set up ???

 

[rives]

Oh, no doubt that they are cheap - ever heard that you get what you pay for? Just price out Cree LEDs and Meanwell drivers (no heat sink, no enclosure, no fans, etc) to put together an equivalent fixture and see how it compares.

Conventional CMH could be done cheaper. Mag ballasts are around $80, the lamps are about the same. Reflectors, for what you want, could either be bent out of specular aluminum or run bare bulb.

CDM 315's at retail would be anywhere from fairly equivalent to a bit more. The ballasts can be had from AdvancedTech for $195, lamps run $80-100. Lamp sockets for the PGZ18 are a little difficult to source, but much easier than when I was putting my stuff together. I bought enough gear on eBay to do about 10 systems and have far less into it than what you are paying for the LEDs.

 

[DrFever]

was just checking it out actual draw is 295 watts but tons of good reviews even them 144 x 3 are impressive

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=33QHeIQ7aZY

Rives its like anything else really i mean this is made in china no doubt about it is there better out there I think you'll find that no one in the US uses an all US built Diode and to my knowledge every company out there is sourcing internationally. Most of these companies are Chinese, and they lead the world in the actual tech There are several colors used in LED's that are not made in the US. It's like a company "claiming" they use Cree diodes, which in some cases they are. Fact is, Cree only makes about 2 of the colors used in say a 7 band array. So the first question to a company using Cree should be, ok so what do you use for the other 6 colors outside of white?
Fact is, If you're being told that a light is using all US diodes and everything else, you are being lied to.

So this brings me to this thinking ok I am not a LED person by far really no shit but what i am reading 5 watt - 10 watt should not even be in the led grow lights right ????
will this 700 watters produce heat owe yea but for the price i am thinking this just may work out ok i mean there fucking cheap decent warranty and many people claim decent results can it be that bad as a supplementary light source specially ful spectrum
hell no

PS Waiting on reply ordering 4 for less then 200 a pop waiting on sara to get back to me on this

 

[rives]

Anybody that doesn't tell you what components that they are using is using junk. They may work fine for what you want, but don't confuse them with what top-end LEDs would be capable of.

 

[Jhhnn]

Ah, neither of those sentiments really explains how I think about lighting, I just wanted to recycle his statements for effect.

The LEP look interesting as supplemental lighting, but the footprint is poor, the price is insane and there seem more cost effective ways of getting UV lighting. Especially now after reading the repost of rives link, that is the kind of information I look for. Perhaps if one were mixing them with HPS and running extracts, it may pay for itself eventually, but I have yet to see a run detailing actual increased THC levels.

I am looking to closely approximate the suns spectrum, and see CMH as a good place to start while LED is moving forward. My wallet leads me here as well.

I was reading over the page on the conversion you posted, and the manufacturer states the spectrum changes with bulb position. Is this unique to conversion or have I been overlooking something fairly important for awhile now?

Edit:appears I have

I think that the color shift happens with some MH designs in general. Gnome posted something to that effect iirc. Dunno how important it is, given that people have been growing quality product with the lousy spectrum of HPS for a long while. Better is good, perfection apparently unnecessary.

 

[Jhhnn]

Well I was given a bulb to test out... 860watt

View Image


This was the parabolic all set up to begin veg on 9/14... I cut my perpetual for one full run as the timing lined up and permitted it... indicas and sativas sit side by side, so I assume the flip will once again begin a perpetual.... the ones in small pots are different males.

View Image

my initial impression... better light output than the old 1000 hps, and a noticeable amount more heat as well.... I'll get some current shots up later today...

Kewl. Is that one of the wayward 860's I gifted to Miles? That'd be fine by me, of course, if it is.

It's odd that the 860's subjectively feel "hotter"- I noticed that myself testing 'em. Scientifically, that's not really possible, but it feels that way somehow. Maybe it's because of the strong output in the lumen range, where our eyes are most sensitive.

 

[Seaf0ur]

Kewl. Is that one of the wayward 860's I gifted to Miles? That'd be fine by me, of course, if it is.

It's odd that the 860's subjectively feel "hotter"- I noticed that myself testing 'em. Scientifically, that's not really possible, but it feels that way somehow. Maybe it's because of the strong output in the lumen range, where our eyes are most sensitive.

From what I gathered, a common HPS seems to run steady at about 100 lm/W (lumens per watt) where as a common MH fluctuates from 65-115 lm/W... Not sure on these CMH's, but I reckon that whatever the electricity is that is not getting turned into light in the low side of the fluctuation is getting turned into heat.... I also think it really depends on the efficiency of each bulb/ballast.. or combination... like, say, an older/heavier used ballast might have worn capacitors that can partially fail... the fixture would start and run continuously but might only hit 60 percent of its maximum brightness.... I mean, there are a lot of variables to be considered really...
perhaps its the "extra" electricity from an 860w bulb in an 1000w solid state ballast... with that electricity being pulled through the bulb and converted to heat along the way somehow... either way...
next, for me, the bulb's rate of degradation comes into consideration... where MH's seem to degrade at a much slower rate than HPS...
Now, I aint read this thread, its long and at its start the 860's didnt even seem to exist, but I'm giving a bulb a test run... I prefer firsthand experience anyway.

And yes, it did come from that direction, a kick-down of a kick-down LOL... and it was requested that I post in here.... so here I am...
now, as I promised last night, here are some shots from this morning... 10 days veg under the 860... water only, actual living soil... I've many the insect and arthropod.

9/14

9/25

 

[Avinash.miles]

thanks for carrying the torch c4.... hope it serves u well.

 

[Jhhnn]

CMH are not intended for high freq electronic ballasts. As I understand it, it vibrates them apart. Hope the 860 serves you well, C4.

Nice to see you post, Miles. It's been awhile. Check your PM's- give me a ring, please!

 

[HorseBadoritiz]

Hey all!

I’ve been running Philips 400W CMH’s from Advanced for almost 4 years, and I have been very happy them. Either vertically or horizontally, they’ve done a great, frosty job.

I’ve been looking into the new LEC’s, but I am a little confused.

I’ve seen some great grows with the Sunlight Supply system, just a little pricey for me right now. I think they use a bulb that is similar to this:

http://www.usa.ecat.lighting.philip...cdm-t-elite-med-wattage-agro/928601172201_na/

Advanced sells a version like this:

http://advancedtechlighting.com/cdmmw.htm

which looks a whole lot like a Philips 330W CDM All-Start I got from them to run on a MH ballast. It worked okay (Thomas at Advanced told me it was better for flowering than the CMH cos it had a bit more red in it’s spectrum), but didn’t excite the trichs like a CMH, LOL!

I like the Advanced ballast kit, but I’m not sold on their bulb. Is it comparable to the Agro Elite with the PGZX18 base? Will the Advanced ballast work with the Elite bulb? I also mostly use the CMH’s for flower (they’re 4000K), but was wondering if the 3100K is a noticeably better choice?

Sorry if this was already answered, I actually did read this whole thread, but my eyes glazed over pretty seriously about 100 pages from the end, LOL!

It’s nice to see a group so into these lights, and thanks for any help!

 

[rives]

Welcome to ICMAG, Horse.

I don't know how comparable the PGZ18 & the mogul base lamps are, I've only used the PGZ18s. The specs are a bit different - the mogul is only available in 4100k, has less lumen maintenance, etc. At first I was a little skeptical of the bi-pin base, but have come to the conclusion that it really is a superior design. I also can't help you with the color/flowering question - I've only used the 3100k versions of both the T9 & T12 lamps.

Yes, the ballast offered by Advanced will operate the Elite series lamps, including the 210w versions (there is a jumper for changing the output).

 

[Jhhnn]

If I were going with a 315 system, I'd just start w/ what Advanced is offering. It's a really good price, and a person could switch to the pgz18 socket down the road if they want. That lamp also fits standard reflectors w/o modification.

Those sockets are currently rapista priced in N America.

 

[HorseBadoritiz]

Welcome to ICMAG, Horse.

I don't know how comparable the PGZ18 & the mogul base lamps are, I've only used the PGZ18s. The specs are a bit different - the mogul is only available in 4100k, has less lumen maintenance, etc. At first I was a little skeptical of the bi-pin base, but have come to the conclusion that it really is a superior design. I also can't help you with the color/flowering question - I've only used the 3100k versions of both the T9 & T12 lamps.

Yes, the ballast offered by Advanced will operate the Elite series lamps, including the 210w versions (there is a jumper for changing the output).

Thanks for the welcome, and the reply Rives! Been a member for a while... lurking is my specialty, LOL!

I am under the impression that the PGZ base is also more efficient in transferring the useful power, meaning more goes to the light output and less is wasted in heat, but I have not used one.

I already have so many odd bulbs, I'm not sure I want their CDM, LOL! But, at $195 for the ballast alone, and the kit special being $220, would the extra 25 beans to include that bulb even be worth it? Or, would it smarter to put that $25 towards an Elite?

Also, when dimming this ballast, anybody know if the spectrum changes proportionately? I've heard that dimming distorts it?

Thanks!

 

[rives]

Thanks for the welcome, and the reply Rives! Been a member for a while... lurking is my specialty, LOL!

I am under the impression that the PGZ base is also more efficient in transferring the useful power, meaning more goes to the light output and less is wasted in heat, but I have not used one.

I already have so many odd bulbs, I'm not sure I want their CDM, LOL! But, at $195 for the ballast alone, and the kit special being $220, would the extra 25 beans to include that bulb even be worth it? Or, would it smarter to put that $25 towards an Elite?

Also, when dimming this ballast, anybody know if the spectrum changes proportionately? I've heard that dimming distorts it?

Thanks!

I don't know that the power exchange from the socket is any better, but it does do away with under/over torquing problems and precisely locates the internal support structure of the lamp so that it doesn't get into the direct lighting.

The price is attractive for the mogul lamp, it all depends on what you want. I've got a whole shop full of various lighting and have little need to add to it. It is undoubtedly a good veg lamp, but I would bet that the Elite Agro in 3k would outperform it for flowering.

Yes, running the lamp dimmed will alter the spectrum and can apparently also impact lamp life if done for long periods.

 

[magiccannabus]

I've got a whole shop full of various lighting and have little need to add to it.

Please let me know the next time you have a garage sale!

 

[HorseBadoritiz]

If I were going with a 315 system, I'd just start w/ what Advanced is offering. It's a really good price, and a person could switch to the pgz18 socket down the road if they want. That lamp also fits standard reflectors w/o modification.

Those sockets are currently rapista priced in N America.

Thanks Jhhnn! I feel like I wasted my time trying out that CDM, so maybe I'm just shy about that MH shape to the bulb... of course liking bulbs shaped like dildoes is pretty weird too, LOL!

I'm old, and the closest thing I can find to rapista is related to Filipino rappers! Don't want a cap in my puwit, but I see the bare bones PGZ mogul for about 20 bucks on ebay, LOL! I usually make up my own anyway, 12g cords seem to keep ignitors working longer. I never did understand what a 2' ignitor was doing in a remote ballast!

I think I'll call Thomas at Advanced and see if he can do a combo with an Elite bulb and socket, now that I know the ballast will work.

 

[LargePrime]

Philips has said the PGZ is more efficient. But it is also a PITA in that you have to disassemble most any reflector you would buy.

There is lots to recommend the Mogul base.
1) Direct swap into most any reflector
2) The very best UV of any of the CMH bulbs.

Advance Tech has sworn by them for years. Not to many have actually had hands on them.

If your in the position to experiment then they are a great setup. Let us know how it turns out.

Also Philips claims dimming does not shift the spectrum on the newer CMH specifically.

Thanks for the welcome, and the reply Rives! Been a member for a while... lurking is my specialty, LOL!

I am under the impression that the PGZ base is also more efficient in transferring the useful power, meaning more goes to the light output and less is wasted in heat, but I have not used one.

I already have so many odd bulbs, I'm not sure I want their CDM, LOL! But, at $195 for the ballast alone, and the kit special being $220, would the extra 25 beans to include that bulb even be worth it? Or, would it smarter to put that $25 towards an Elite?

Also, when dimming this ballast, anybody know if the spectrum changes proportionately? I've heard that dimming distorts it?

Thanks!

 

[the gnome]

I think that the color shift happens with some MH designs in general. Gnome posted something to that effect iirc. Dunno how important it is, given that people have been growing quality product with the lousy spectrum of HPS for a long while. Better is good, perfection apparently unnecessary.

jhhnn, I had read *in passing* last year that any Mh bulb regardless of the burn rated position was at risk to *drift a bit* in the kelvin/color range.
I never really made much of it until.... I bought a few of those avenger batwing hoods because of the *trapped heat* issues with my parabolic hoods.
afters installing em a week later i thought my 4000K MH i used for bloom were running more blue than yellow, a lot more like my 7400K Mh ultrasuns used in veg .
after 3 wks i saw the difference in growth compared to the other bulbs in the vert position in the para's,
these were the sylvania 1000w metal arc 4000K BT57 bulbs.
I have another grow using plusrite 4000K halides with a BT37 bulbs because the BT 57s won't fit in the 6" cooltubes.

the plusrites had no noticable diff to my eyes burning in the hrz pos.
so that's is a bulb by bulb issue

Kewl. Is that one of the wayward 860's I gifted to Miles? That'd be fine by me, of course, if it is.

It's odd that the 860's subjectively feel "hotter"- I noticed that myself testing 'em. Scientifically, that's not really possible, but it feels that way somehow. Maybe it's because of the strong output in the lumen range, where our eyes are most sensitive.

in my current bloom run I'm a using 6-860w cmh bulbs.
my previous run i used 1 of them.
the do run hotter by quite a lot more.
running 6 now I'm sure the burn temps are hotter.

using my laser temp gun I'm getting 500F from the 860s
while my 1000w sylvies are running 380ish F.

the CMH bulbs definitely run hotter

 

[Seaf0ur]

Issues with my image hosting... shit got deleted... here's them shots again...

9/14

9/25

 

[Luther Burbank]

I'm gonna go for a couple of the 860s, which it looks like are vertical? Guess this is gonna be my first foray into vert as well. Seems yall with them have just gone barebulb?