organics...soil beds vs. pots?

[dank.frank]

Could you clarify what you mean by stratification and how that would be an issue in soil beds?



dank.Frank

 

[VerdantGreen]

'stratification' in horticulture is giving moist seeds a cold spell to break dormancy (not necessary for cannabis)

i assume he means compaction or similar - which i agree is something that can happen, and a potential disadvantage of no-till.

 

[xxxstr8edgexxx]

great thread
! dropping into check it out.
im interested in doing some long organic beds in climate controlled greenhouses.
im familiar with the water only amended beds but am curios about getting teas to do alot of the work. not necesssarily just for microbes but also a the nutrient source for suplementing the ammended soil.
mainly i am looking to that because of trying to get the timing of release correct with ngredients of varrying breakdown times intimidates me. i think from a low base nutrient stratedgy it could be simple if you relied on fine tuning with good tailored teas into a microbial;y rich medium of of balanced ammendmets at maintaninance nutrition for both the plants and the micr flora and fauna shrooms etc. i didnt quite understand the stratification comment either.

 

[ct guy2]

'stratification' in horticulture is giving moist seeds a cold spell to break dormancy (not necessary for cannabis)

i assume he means compaction or similar - which i agree is something that can happen, and a potential disadvantage of no-till.

The compaction issue can be addressed by mixing in more aeration amendments between runs.

I have a friend working off of 5 years with the same soil now and some commercial growers on their 12th run in the same soil in beds.

I think there's a big difference between 10% runoff and "flushing" as people think of it traditionally. I think the soil test there would be key, but I don't believe the above quote takes into account the microbial populations that are constantly sequestering, immobilizing, and releasing nutrients in the soil itself. How exactly would this be "flushed" out of the soil. Provided you're not over adding certain nutrients in excess over time, then I don't see any need to flush your plants in healthy organic soil.

I also don't see the big issue with setting up beds at a slight angle to you have your drainage in the corner of the bed that can then be gravity fed to a pipe for disposal.

 

[fatburt]

is this a good soil mix for a bed?

1 Bale sunshine mix #2 or promix (3.8 cu ft)
8 cups Bone Meal - phosphorus source
4 cups Blood Meal - nitrogen source
1 1/3 cups Epsom salts - magnesium source
3-4 cups dolomite lime -calcium source & pH buffering
1 tsp fritted trace elements
4 cups kelp meal.
9kg (25 lbs) bag pure worm castings

 

[EclipseFour20]

...I think there's a big difference between 10% runoff and "flushing" as people think of it traditionally. I think the soil test there would be key, but I don't believe the above quote takes into account the microbial populations that are constantly sequestering, immobilizing, and releasing nutrients in the soil itself. How exactly would this be "flushed" out of the soil. Provided you're not over adding certain nutrients in excess over time, then I don't see any need to flush your plants in healthy organic soil.
...

Exactly, I don't flush but when I "water" I want a bit of runoff. If the goal is to "mimic nature" (which I sorta do), then both water "deficits" (drought) and "surpluses" (rain) are variables that can be manipulated rather easily.

Again, the brews (mineral, enzyme, fertility, bacteria, teas, etc) I am stingy ($$$) and try to deliver to each container a specific amount as to saturate the grow medium with little to no runoff (wa$te) but shoot for 10% runoff when watering. Roots seem to like it better too, as my rootballs are fuller...as compared to the days I shot for zero runoff (dry saucers).

Studies have shown that water deficits can improve quality of certain crops. Rains prior to harvest have shown to improve quality as well...but they also have been known to fuck up things up as well. I think the rain washes the salts (yes organic inputs generate salts...and they generally accumulate in the rootzone area) away from the roots and kinda balances out everything.

Of course--one should examine the breakdown time of their inputs, it is kinda dumb to introduce a product that has 20-30 day breakdown period a week or so before harvest--but many people do, unwittingly. During the last week or so prior to harvest, I just water--but recently (on the advice of the formulator) I now add a wee bit of Avalanche and tinier amounts of Mendocino Molasses and impressed with this tweak; more oil/terpene in the finished product compared to H2O only. Think it is time to conduct some serious research oil/terpene production.

 

[dank.frank]

I'd say no.

You want at least 25-30 percent areation in a peat heavy mix - and you want at least 10-15% EWC in any soil mix...

For long term beds, I recommend permatil as the aeration element - as it helps prevent soil compaction because it doesn't float to the surface like other things do - and it also doesn't break down over time either.

-----------

One of the biggest problems in commercial farming is agrictultrual run-off killing eco-systems due to over fertilization. I'd still contest that it is not "necessary" to have run off in a mix that is properly dialed...this is just my opinion. I'm not saying run off is evil - I've just never seen any issue in my soils with salt build up - and water with the intention of having no run off...if I have run off, I typically consider it as having over watered...



dank.Frank

 

[Lapides]

I like beds. I will never grow in a pot again. I use the design Soma outlined in his organic gardening book years ago. If you google Soma beds marijuana you should find it easily enough.

My beds don't drain. It wouldn't matter much if they did. I've been recycling and reammending the dirt in them for almost 2 years now and my life could not be any easier. I say this with about 20 years experience growing pot inside.

My next grow I will be using Geoplanters, they drain, but it doesnt matter ime.

 

[Photosynthesis]

To me soil beds should be no-til. However to have a successful long term bed you have to til.

I suppose I need to just change my frame of mind.

Stratification is a major problem with the no-til paradigm. Maybe a once per year til is the way to go.

I am currently using 15 gallon fabric pots because I can still empty them, and remix in amendments.

I haven't been able to make the leap to soil beds yet. Might not ever.

 

[Greeneleaf420]

Beds are definitely a good idea. We ran 4x8x8" beds with sunshine #2. Two 600s over each bed and 9 plants per light pulled over 1 1/4 lb off each light. Beds were lined with panda plastic and no drainage. Switched from sunshine to happy frog and fed low strength every watering for the first half of flower then plain water for the second half of flower. Pulled over 5 lb off the 4 lights. With that being said I would of loved to of had those beds draining but def not required. I switched from this method a year ago to pots and have done nowhere near as good. So I bought a smart pot tray liner for a 4x4 tray and filled with vermifire soil with just teas. Other grows used Lucas formula for the sunshine and pure blend pro for the soil. Gonna see what that does will be nice having the drainage

 

[Vivianna]

What sized pots are best?

 

[growingcrazy]

To me soil beds should be no-til. However to have a successful long term bed you have to til.

I suppose I need to just change my frame of mind.

Stratification is a major problem with the no-til paradigm. Maybe a once per year til is the way to go.

I am currently using 15 gallon fabric pots because I can still empty them, and remix in amendments.

I haven't been able to make the leap to soil beds yet. Might not ever.

I have run two different types of no-till soil beds, both without drains of any type, and they worked excellent.

I think the key to slowing compaction and stratification is cover cropping. A cover crop that is dense and deep rooting will loosen soil and allow quicker cycling of the nutrients back into the soil.

All of my beds so far have been 24" deep, with 18" for actual soil and the 6" for cover crop and/or mulching. My best runs so far have been in those no-till organic beds. Currently I am running 10 gallon smart pots and thinking about going to a 4x8x2 custom smart pot bed in the near future...

Beds also make it difficult to run perpetual, I don't have the ability to veg in my flower space. I think plants in beds need to be vegged in those beds to get enough roots to make them fully worth it.

Peace
GC

 

[fatburt]

I have run two different types of no-till soil beds, both without drains of any type, and they worked excellent.

I think the key to slowing compaction and stratification is cover cropping. A cover crop that is dense and deep rooting will loosen soil and allow quicker cycling of the nutrients back into the soil.

All of my beds so far have been 24" deep, with 18" for actual soil and the 6" for cover crop and/or mulching. My best runs so far have been in those no-till organic beds. Currently I am running 10 gallon smart pots and thinking about going to a 4x8x2 custom smart pot bed in the near future...

Beds also make it difficult to run perpetual, I don't have the ability to veg in my flower space. I think plants in beds need to be vegged in those beds to get enough roots to make them fully worth it.

Peace
GC

thats 470 gallons of soil!wow,so about 10 bales of promix!

 

[fatburt]

i think for my application pots are best,thanx for the advise guys!

 

[redneck shogun]

Over the years I've settled down to finishing with just 3 gal bags. They seem to always work out best for my setup with it's 3 up pottings and the different stages I move my plants through with different lights and space issues. Only perpetual systems work for me or I end up wasting light. That being said i think my results are still good enough even though in the begining I didn't expect it to work. My mix is more than 5 years old now and I recycle it by adding 1 cup of EWC for every gallon of soil. I only add the EWC to the last potting when I pot up to the 3 gal bag, before then it is untreated soil from previous runs. They really benefit from a compost tea the first week in their 3 gallon home. Never used mycos because I never was sure I really it needed enough to spend the money. My EWC are from my own bins now but before I used store bought and amended my soil with kelp and compost and minerals that now are the worms food instead.

 

[growingcrazy]

thats 470 gallons of soil!wow,so about 10 bales of promix!

Do you see why I am still hesitant! lol

I have been recycling my current soils for almost 6 years, I have an entire 52"x52"x18" bed that is my soil recycling area plus what I have in current use ( 16- 10 gallon smarties + others). I could come close to filling the beds, but it sure is a lot of weight..

Peace
GC

 

[fatburt]

yes i see..lol