copperfacedave
Active member
Would a 6 gallon coco hempy bucket be big enough for 2lb trees? or would you go bigger?
Large Hempy Buckets for trees
- Thread starter copperfacedave
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copperfacedave
Active member
Plus would 8 weeks veg be enough for most strains to get 2lbs. 4 plants 5000w of bare bulbs.
I have no direct tree room experience, but plenty with Coco, so take this as you may...
5 gal buckets should easily grow multi # plants. I'm not sure if I would go hempy or just a straight 5 gal pot, but to get trees out of a 5 gal you will need a drip system. Hand watering you will need much larger pots, and longer veg period.
In 2 gal pots I have pulled between 4-8 oz, but I think 1#'ers out of a 2 gal pot are possible. This is with a drip system. Those plants would never get that large hand watering. You just can't keep up and the plants stall out daily running out of juice.
As for the veg period, I think 8 weeks is right in there. You want to have some solid clones so probably looking at 11-12 weeks from cutting to flip. After good root establishment transplant to 5 gal. Water once every 3-5 days for the first two weeks then start creeping to once per day, and by 4 weeks of veg I imagine you should be hitting them at least once per day if not more. By mid flower I imagine you will need a large reservoir to keep up, and at least 4+ waterings per day.
The upside to smaller pots is they are more quickly filled with roots and you can begin multi feeds sooner thus giving better growth, but the downside is that if you are in mid flower and a pump fails, or something else goes wrong, the plant may be dead within 24 hours. The hempy helps with this situation, but has the same problems as larger pots, at least in my experience. It can be really slow going taking a small plant and dropping it directly into a 5 gal vs a 2 gal for the first two weeks. You may even want to go from clone to 2 gal then 2 gal to 5 gal as an intermediary step to keep growth going strong during veg, but I have no experience here so maybe someone else can chime in.
All of this only applies to Coco. Ebb and Flow or a PPK with other media may not have these problems, but coco certainly holds a lot more water.
5 gal buckets should easily grow multi # plants. I'm not sure if I would go hempy or just a straight 5 gal pot, but to get trees out of a 5 gal you will need a drip system. Hand watering you will need much larger pots, and longer veg period.
In 2 gal pots I have pulled between 4-8 oz, but I think 1#'ers out of a 2 gal pot are possible. This is with a drip system. Those plants would never get that large hand watering. You just can't keep up and the plants stall out daily running out of juice.
As for the veg period, I think 8 weeks is right in there. You want to have some solid clones so probably looking at 11-12 weeks from cutting to flip. After good root establishment transplant to 5 gal. Water once every 3-5 days for the first two weeks then start creeping to once per day, and by 4 weeks of veg I imagine you should be hitting them at least once per day if not more. By mid flower I imagine you will need a large reservoir to keep up, and at least 4+ waterings per day.
The upside to smaller pots is they are more quickly filled with roots and you can begin multi feeds sooner thus giving better growth, but the downside is that if you are in mid flower and a pump fails, or something else goes wrong, the plant may be dead within 24 hours. The hempy helps with this situation, but has the same problems as larger pots, at least in my experience. It can be really slow going taking a small plant and dropping it directly into a 5 gal vs a 2 gal for the first two weeks. You may even want to go from clone to 2 gal then 2 gal to 5 gal as an intermediary step to keep growth going strong during veg, but I have no experience here so maybe someone else can chime in.
All of this only applies to Coco. Ebb and Flow or a PPK with other media may not have these problems, but coco certainly holds a lot more water.
Dr.RedWhite
Active member
You can pass the "hempy lag" by placing an internal wick of 1/2 inch nylon rope vertically in the bucket from the bottom up to you clone. The white stuff that doesn't look like a form of plastic. This will give your clone solution immediately and also a moist hiway to the bottom of the bucket. Second LSWM is right you will need to automate your system so that you can feed several times during the light cycle. You also want your solution to replace what may still be in the bucket 100 percent. I like 100% perlite better than coco due to not having to deal much with cation exchange and possible calcium and magnesium issues early on. However coco done properly is a fine medium, you just have to be a bit more vigilant avoiding lockout.
I run 5 gallon coco in bags. I have to water one pound plants daily or they die. Even with a daily watering I am under watering them and losing yield. Like said above you need multiple waterings daily for that size plant to pot.
SirStynkalot
Member
Hempy buckets are a poor choice for trees.
Hempy buckets rely on the right ratio of water to air in the pot, meaning you can't really play around much with drain hole height before you start getting root rot. 2 lb trees are damn near impossible indoors, but I've grown 1 lb ones indoors and they needed a much longer veg than you're thinking and they drank something like 5 gallons a day if I remember right. 5 gallon hempy buckets hold less than a gallon in the res, for comparison.
I've also never heard of using coco in hempy. I use Perlite. I imagine coco would hold a lot more water which is not at all a good thing in hempy. Again, the whole point of that passive res system is to hold a balanced ratio of water to air.
Active hydroponics is going to get you theoretically closest to what you want, but I think you may have some unreasonable expectations about what these plants can do. What you're asking IS technically possible for someone like Heath Robinson, but he's about it. I believe he has a journal floating around somewhere about his black rose and critical mass tree experiments with an undercurrent system. Might want to look into that if you're set on hydroponics and large trees.
Hempy buckets rely on the right ratio of water to air in the pot, meaning you can't really play around much with drain hole height before you start getting root rot. 2 lb trees are damn near impossible indoors, but I've grown 1 lb ones indoors and they needed a much longer veg than you're thinking and they drank something like 5 gallons a day if I remember right. 5 gallon hempy buckets hold less than a gallon in the res, for comparison.
I've also never heard of using coco in hempy. I use Perlite. I imagine coco would hold a lot more water which is not at all a good thing in hempy. Again, the whole point of that passive res system is to hold a balanced ratio of water to air.
Active hydroponics is going to get you theoretically closest to what you want, but I think you may have some unreasonable expectations about what these plants can do. What you're asking IS technically possible for someone like Heath Robinson, but he's about it. I believe he has a journal floating around somewhere about his black rose and critical mass tree experiments with an undercurrent system. Might want to look into that if you're set on hydroponics and large trees.
I disagree with much of this post. No disrespect intended. I think 2lb trees are doable in 5 gal coco pots, with drip schedules being steadily monitored and increased. One 15 gal res per tree, 1 pump per res, with a float valve in each res, topped from a larger 50-100 gal bulk res. That or run it all off one large res. Up to the grower.
The couple plants I have grown in top drip perlite hempys were nothing compared to those grown in coco pots or hempys.
Coco hempys are nothing new and people have been doing them for ages. They put stones in the bottom res, or straight coco all the way to the top. It's all about monitoring your watering to keep that res drying up a bit in between waterings to avoid rot. Once they take off you can start hitting them with multiple feedings per day, and that lower res stays aerated with fresh solution.
I have a 5 gal coco hempy with a blackberry bush in it outside right now. Other than the chipmunks the thing does awesome being watered to waste once per day.
Copperfacedave:
PPK's are your best bet from what I can gather from those with more tree experience than I. I have toyed with running a top drip 5 gal coco tree just like you are suggesting, or a full on PPK tree setup. I think when I get this current run handled and I get the chance to tear down my donuts, I will setup a few PPK's and a couple top drip coco pots just to compare.
Aside from that I think a well rooted clone into a 5 gal coco pot vegged for 8 weeks would be ready to hit the tree room and get fed multiple times per day. Without any experience growing, this all is a very tall order however.
What experience do you have Copperfacedave?
SirStynkalot
Member
Oh i'm sure hempy would work with coco LSWM but it seems to me like it would be a lot more work. It was impractical for me at least to let the plants dry out a little between waterings in hempy. It gave me too short of a window to hit them with another feeding. Perlite you don't have to do that, and my understanding was the point of hempy is to reduce maintenance, not increase it. Once you start putting (air) stones in the buckets you're moving into a shallow DWC setup (active hydroponics) instead of a wick system (passive hydroponics). If I'm going to sign up for all the extra work involved in active hydro I'd rather have larger reservoirs.
5 gal coco drain to waste is much easier to manage by comparison and should almost certainly give better results. I like 5 gal smart pots d2w on drip. One of my favorite ways to grow. I'd just never try mixing hempy with coco.
I wasn't a fan of perlite in hempy buckets either. It seemed to me like they were more vulnerable for the first few weeks and then I had more problems keeping the res topped off once their root masses built up. It seems like switching from perlite to coco would help a lot with the second problem but make the first problem worse.
Again, though, I have no experience with coco hempys so if you have and it works for you then I'm no one to judge. I may have to try it out someday. And my hempy experiences were when I started growing several years ago, so it's possible if I tried again with the knowledge I have now I'd get pretty different results.
5 gal coco drain to waste is much easier to manage by comparison and should almost certainly give better results. I like 5 gal smart pots d2w on drip. One of my favorite ways to grow. I'd just never try mixing hempy with coco.
I wasn't a fan of perlite in hempy buckets either. It seemed to me like they were more vulnerable for the first few weeks and then I had more problems keeping the res topped off once their root masses built up. It seems like switching from perlite to coco would help a lot with the second problem but make the first problem worse.
Again, though, I have no experience with coco hempys so if you have and it works for you then I'm no one to judge. I may have to try it out someday. And my hempy experiences were when I started growing several years ago, so it's possible if I tried again with the knowledge I have now I'd get pretty different results.
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Hempy's even with a reservoir at the bottom with hydroton, lava rocks, or anything else is still a passive hydroponic system. It is technically shallow water culture with a large inert soiless media above. When you begin to recirulate this solution you now have a dutch bucket system which is an active hydroponic system (depending on your active/passive definitions).
As I stated above, I have a blackberry bush in a 5 gal coco hempy and there is no additional work involved other than watering once per day with the same feed as I do my coco pots. It is still DTW hydro. Nothing like DWC or RDWC, and even the dutch buckets do not compare to the work involved. The benefit of a hempy is the increased time between watering, while maintaining the ease of DTW. With a long season crop like a blackberry, I decided that extra res would, in turn, give me a larger plant while only needing daily watering vs a straight pot. The same is true of MJ indoors, however trying to make that work with such a limited veg time I believe is counter intuitive and a drip system makes much more sense.
As I stated above, I have a blackberry bush in a 5 gal coco hempy and there is no additional work involved other than watering once per day with the same feed as I do my coco pots. It is still DTW hydro. Nothing like DWC or RDWC, and even the dutch buckets do not compare to the work involved. The benefit of a hempy is the increased time between watering, while maintaining the ease of DTW. With a long season crop like a blackberry, I decided that extra res would, in turn, give me a larger plant while only needing daily watering vs a straight pot. The same is true of MJ indoors, however trying to make that work with such a limited veg time I believe is counter intuitive and a drip system makes much more sense.
I water about 5 gallons a day to get 4 pounds at the end of 10 weeks. Like I said above yield is down because my plants want more than the 5 gallons.
This is with one watering per day with 5-6 plants in five gallon bags with run off. If I jump it to 2 waterings per day the yield will increase.
This is with one watering per day with 5-6 plants in five gallon bags with run off. If I jump it to 2 waterings per day the yield will increase.
copperfacedave
Active member
thanks everyone for there input.
LSWM I've done coco pots and coco hempys before never managed more than about 15oz per plant in 4 gallon hempy with 600w per plant. I was wondering if the pot size was the limiting factor. Now I'm thinking its most likely the veg time and strain that's limiting the yield. I'd like to try a PPK that would be ideal but at the moment I want the most fool proof option while dial the room in a bit and avoid disasters.
At the moment I'm leaning towards 16 gallon coco hempys hydroton and air stones at the bottom hand watered. I'd probably veg for a month or so in smaller hempy before transfering to 16 gallon hempy for last month of veg.
LSWM I've done coco pots and coco hempys before never managed more than about 15oz per plant in 4 gallon hempy with 600w per plant. I was wondering if the pot size was the limiting factor. Now I'm thinking its most likely the veg time and strain that's limiting the yield. I'd like to try a PPK that would be ideal but at the moment I want the most fool proof option while dial the room in a bit and avoid disasters.
At the moment I'm leaning towards 16 gallon coco hempys hydroton and air stones at the bottom hand watered. I'd probably veg for a month or so in smaller hempy before transfering to 16 gallon hempy for last month of veg.
The largest plant I got was 23 ounces in a five gallon bag watered once per day. Most are about 12 ounces.
copperfacedave
Active member
Ichabod Crane with four plants 5000watts and a long veg they would have to hit at least 25oz each to be worth while otherwise I'd prob go to four plants per light with less veg.
DunHav`nFun
Well-known member
As Icky stated above , smaller rootmasses will need more watering/feedings per day than bigger containers....I grew 2-1/2 lb plants in stacked 5 gal buckets for a decade , but it was fully recirculating hydro with roots wanting for nada......
Go look up Blue Haze`s thread in coco section and see what he did with 5 gal buckets DTW into a bottom bucket kinda like a Hempy , but still just fed once a day and pulled 1 lb`ers consistently....
Name of thread `s GH and Coir IIRC , and a damn good read for growin bigger plants with bare bulbs......anyways....
Good luck and....
Peace....DHF....
...
Go look up Blue Haze`s thread in coco section and see what he did with 5 gal buckets DTW into a bottom bucket kinda like a Hempy , but still just fed once a day and pulled 1 lb`ers consistently....
Name of thread `s GH and Coir IIRC , and a damn good read for growin bigger plants with bare bulbs......anyways....
Good luck and....
Peace....DHF....
...Dr.RedWhite
Active member
Increased time between watering is not something I want if growing trees. Just automate, recirculate your solution, keep on top of EC and PH. Coco or perlite will both work just fine. I would probably use something in the neighborhood of 18 gallons of media. Why not? I too think 2 months veg is a bit short, three would be better.
You say increased time between watering is not something you want, then suggest 18 gallons of media?
I'm confused.
Dr.RedWhite
Active member
Well 18 gallons of medium, three months veg (which in my case would be a pretty big plant) and I run my pump for at least 15 minutes three ( or 4,5 or 6) times a day depending on how much the plant is taking up, the reservoir in an 18 gallon tote would hold several gallons but I want to recirculate the solution for the aeration of said media and the solution. Also to avoid salt buildup. If you are growing large plants 18 gallons of media will be dwarfed under it and cause no space issues. Increased time between fertigation is not all that important if you automate the process. I think if you want to grow trees go for it and convenience is not an issue. I mean trees that give up more than 2 pounds of dried and trimmed bud anyway. On the other hand you better have plenty of space if you want to do this indoors.
