End result difference between 190 & 200 proof Etoh

[Chonkski]

So I have a question to any with a lot of experience with winterizing.

I have always just used 190 as my go to and it's been great.. But after finding out about kleen xtract, I decided to give it a whirl since it claims to be 200 proof pure Etoh(seems like a long shot).

Now this experiment was kind of a bummer, because there is several different variables. First off, the first actual run I did and every run since using the kleen, was with material from a new grower that I don't know much about. So it could be that.. But ever since I've been using this 200proof, or kleen, everything I end up filtering turns out black and gooey after purging. When it would normally turn out yellow and beautiful shatter like stability. No matter the storage or age.

Now what leads me to believe that it's the pure Etoh that happens to be the causing variable.......

When I got the bottle of kleen I decided to rewash some saved up waxes from the past few weeks of work(close to 100grams of wax and lipids etc). All from the other grower. This ended up yielding around an oz, of the ever so feared non decarbed black goo.

I'll post a photo of the color. Sorry for the extended post. I'm just very stressed because this is a major setback.

Not quite sure what to blame, kleen? 200proof? If so can I just add water so it's not as volatile? Perhaps on a long shot it's just the grower? Soaking/freezing for 48hrs?

 

[flatslabs]

Getting your temps any lower than normal? Find out if the grower uses neem oil or any foliar sprays soon before harvest.

 

[Chonkski]

Getting your temps any lower than normal? Find out if the grower uses neem oil or any foliar sprays soon before harvest.

Yes actually, the temps went from 0°f to -16°f the past few times as well. Could this be it? I've been using the same freezer, but the last few times my jars bottles have been under leftover ice so it got that much colder.

My thoughts exactly when it comes to considering the material to be the responsible variable, wouldn't be the first time I've encountered neem the hard way. I plan on bringing up the second I speak with him next.

 

[stoney917]

I could add my 2c but ill just wait for greywolf...

 

[G.O. Joe]

If so can I just add water so it's not as volatile?

That would be scientific of you. Not to all of it, just a little for a tiny little test.

Many combinations have been tried and analyzed, resulting in universal use of heavily-taxed 95% ABV ethanol - it gives the most precipitate with the least amount of trapped THC.

 

[flatslabs]

I remember reading a thread recently where someone took their winterizing solvent to pretty low temps, lower than what you are describing if I recall, and ended up pulling some dark goo out, like cannabinoids are crystallizing out almost.

The last trim I ran came from the same grower in 2 bags, I know it wasn't old because I process for him regularly. One of the bags came out golden shatter, one of the bags came out almost black. I know he didn't change his process between the two bags, so I just chalked it up to dirty trim.

 

[Gray Wolf]

So I have a question to any with a lot of experience with winterizing.

I have always just used 190 as my go to and it's been great.. But after finding out about kleen xtract, I decided to give it a whirl since it claims to be 200 proof pure Etoh(seems like a long shot).

Now this experiment was kind of a bummer, because there is several different variables. First off, the first actual run I did and every run since using the kleen, was with material from a new grower that I don't know much about. So it could be that.. But ever since I've been using this 200proof, or kleen, everything I end up filtering turns out black and gooey after purging. When it would normally turn out yellow and beautiful shatter like stability. No matter the storage or age.

Now what leads me to believe that it's the pure Etoh that happens to be the causing variable.......

When I got the bottle of kleen I decided to rewash some saved up waxes from the past few weeks of work(close to 100grams of wax and lipids etc). All from the other grower. This ended up yielding around an oz, of the ever so feared non decarbed black goo.

I'll post a photo of the color. Sorry for the extended post. I'm just very stressed because this is a major setback.

Not quite sure what to blame, kleen? 200proof? If so can I just add water so it's not as volatile? Perhaps on a long shot it's just the grower? Soaking/freezing for 48hrs?

After you remove the ethanol, and smear the oil on white paper, what color is the smear?

 

[Chonkski]

After you remove the ethanol, and smear the oil on white paper, what color is the smear?

It does smear into an amber color, but there is no chance what so ever when it comes to achieving a stable product. It's like it damaged the cannabinoids some how?

This is terrible, because I have five gallons of the kleen on the way. I may need to send it back and in the meantime production is at a standstill. Perhaps it's back to ordering cases of everclear..

I am very tempted in just adding 5% water, but that would defeat the purpose of even buying the kleen. I evaporate off my ethanol right now over 24+ hrs, so when using 190p the water at the end is a pain. I also worry about micro bacteria over the time of evap.

 

[Gray Wolf]

It does smear into an amber color, but there is no chance what so ever when it comes to achieving a stable product. It's like it damaged the cannabinoids some how?

This is terrible, because I have five gallons of the kleen on the way. I may need to send it back and in the meantime production is at a standstill. Perhaps it's back to ordering cases of everclear..

I am very tempted in just adding 5% water, but that would defeat the purpose of even buying the kleen. I evaporate off my ethanol right now over 24+ hrs, so when using 190p the water at the end is a pain. I also worry about micro bacteria over the time of evap.

If the smears are still amber, vis a vis dark green, I would guess dropping out the water caused it to extract more of the darker elements.

Our experiments with chromatography columns, showed that the dark elements are more polar and contains few cannabinoids.

What temperature are you extracting at?

 

[Chonkski]

If the smears are still amber, vis a vis dark green, I would guess dropping out the water caused it to extract more of the darker elements.

Our experiments with chromatography columns, showed that the dark elements are more polar and contains few cannabinoids.

What temperature are you extracting at?

This is what I was afraid of, considering the kleen xtract is almost 50% cheaper than buying everclear. Would you suggest I try adding water?

I'm extracting at the same temps as usual, butane tank on regular ice water. I use a heat exchanger so the tank doesn't warm up much.. And the collection tank's bath stays between 65-85.

 

[flatslabs]

Ethanol likes water, I would assume given enough time exposed to open atmostphere it would absorb enough on its own to be 95%.
In the lab, our small bottles of pure ethanol always had a rubber membrane over the top to avoid unnecessary exposure to humidity.

 

[Chonkski]

Ethanol likes water, I would assume given enough time exposed to open atmostphere it would absorb enough on its own to be 95%.
In the lab, our small bottles of pure ethanol always had a rubber membrane over the top to avoid unnecessary exposure to humidity.

Yeah, very hygroscopic. When I leave it sitting to evaporate there is still a minute amount of milky water at the end.

 

[G.O. Joe]

Is there, the remote possibility, that you haven't told the whole story, or know the whole story, about this solvent, and that it isn't, in fact, pure ethanol?

 

[flatslabs]

Is there, the remote possibility, that you haven't told the whole story, or know the whole story, about this solvent, and that it isn't, in fact, pure ethanol?

The MSDS on their site lists undenatured 200 Proof Ethyl Alcohol, 100% by weight.

I am not sure where they are sourcing their stuff from, but the MSDS they have published is very well formatted and has their logo on it, which says to me they are either making their own stuff or re-typing the ugly MSDS they got from their supplier. If their stuff comes from China, lets just say it wouldn't be the first time I have seen a MSDS that was incorrect if it was independently verified.

 

[Chonkski]

Is there, the remote possibility, that you haven't told the whole story, or know the whole story, about this solvent, and that it isn't, in fact, pure ethanol?

Exactly what flatslabs said.

Which is why I mentioned one of the main variables being the kleen xtract.

This stuff www.kleenxtract.com

 

[G.O. Joe]

Their site and MSDS page is blank pages in this browser, so I haven't read that. Given the problem, the rules and regulations regarding undenatured alcohol, there is cause for suspicion. If you really want to be scientific about it without analysis (I'd start with a crystal of KMnO4), buy genuine anhydrous ethanol and compare extractions.

 

[Chonkski]

Their site and MSDS page is blank pages in this browser, so I haven't read that. Given the problem, the rules and regulations regarding undenatured alcohol, there is cause for suspicion. If you really want to be scientific about it without analysis (I'd start with a crystal of KMnO4), buy genuine anhydrous ethanol and compare extractions.

Indeed, this will be something I must do.

I did do a small residual test by evaping about 250ml of the kleen on a Pyrex dish, there was no detectable residue.

 

[Chonkski]

Progress;

I did a small test by adding around 5% water to some ethanol and tried winterizing about an oz of bho. It will be in the freezer until tomorrow, but I did filter some this morning just to see the color. It's all evaped now, water and all. And it's bright yellow! Beautiful shatter.

Now there are still some variables to be considered, and some that have been thrown out. But I won't know the full scheme of what was going wrong until I filter this tomorrow and do some further experimenting.

I have five gallons of this kleen xtract, so we'll see. I hope I didn't waste my money.

 

[medman225]

first off very cool and im hoping it goes well for u.
if i could recommend one thing, do small tests, as it seems ur doing in the above post.... personally i would be very wary of adding water due the the difficulty of removing it.. but to each his own...
in regards to the threads original question, i remember reading somewhere that everclear actually has some kind of gylcerin or sugar added to it which i cant authenticate atm....
might we be able to see a pic of the product once the kleen was evaporated off...
a wise man once said a pic is worth a thousand words
im really not very well versed in alcohol extraction and id only ever use it for winterizing bho... but honestly from what ive heard and sampled ive found alcohol can tend to leave a residual taste... could the consistency you refer to be from the need to pull out more alcohol thru vacuum chamber/vac oven
i wouldnt necessarily saay it is automatically screwed and worthless bro... whether or not u continue with this extraction or u move to a new one... i would do some experiementing and a little trial and error to see if u cant tweak ur process a little.

 

[ilikbeans]

Hey chonkski , u should try goin back to ur 190 proof and add some zeolite it will raise the the proof bye taking out the remaining water or most of it anyway . Hope this is helpful

Peace