google for different sources in china. choose fedex over DHL, DHL loves to comply with import laws and good chance it'll get tied up in customs for a week+. i paid $230 for 2kg. $70/kg + $90 shipping. agricultural grade.
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Dud Identification Collective Knowledge.
- Thread starter high life 45
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So what exactly happened? Did plants that were "dudded" come back to life, or are you using it on new plants as a preventative?
thank you everyone
thank you everyone
Reading this for several days i finally jumped to this point hoping to find treatment. Yes!! thanks storm retro str8edge and everyone who worked it. I have been living with the mystery for several years in Hdband 707 (which brought it, I believe) and also many problems with a keeper tahoe/chem91 and its sister to a degree. It also opportunistic with an Exodus/jackTripper/blueberry hybrid ive been with a good while. I have not much to add besides thanks and maybe one observation only.
I ditched a couple pounds of seedrun after bho extract of the product. On a very dry western ditch about 100 seeds snow?germinated. No reason to believe they were egg infected and it was not a valid percent germ test by any means. Those plants have been culled to about 20 and are flowering now. Zero nutes,zero assisted water, rather small but very healthy and vigorous for the world they are in. So maybe butane or propane is a safe seed treatment where there is any doubt. No reason to believe they were infected but i will try it further with seeds from my "sensitive" mothers. Anyway this has always been a scary roll of the dice thing with some very favorite girls, so thanks again
thank you everyone
Reading this for several days i finally jumped to this point hoping to find treatment. Yes!! thanks storm retro str8edge and everyone who worked it. I have been living with the mystery for several years in Hdband 707 (which brought it, I believe) and also many problems with a keeper tahoe/chem91 and its sister to a degree. It also opportunistic with an Exodus/jackTripper/blueberry hybrid ive been with a good while. I have not much to add besides thanks and maybe one observation only.
I ditched a couple pounds of seedrun after bho extract of the product. On a very dry western ditch about 100 seeds snow?germinated. No reason to believe they were egg infected and it was not a valid percent germ test by any means. Those plants have been culled to about 20 and are flowering now. Zero nutes,zero assisted water, rather small but very healthy and vigorous for the world they are in. So maybe butane or propane is a safe seed treatment where there is any doubt. No reason to believe they were infected but i will try it further with seeds from my "sensitive" mothers. Anyway this has always been a scary roll of the dice thing with some very favorite girls, so thanks again
pics
pics
If this isnt Dud, Im open to ideas. Still trying chitosan anyway tho
og, headband and exodus jack clones, all show different signs but always have the melon stem and white dry surface there. See the stem at groundline. I now think is called wool. Until now, i thought it was some freak salt toxicity from cloning. But it does happen sometimes with or w/out nutes in the rez. large plant is headband clone 12 feet away from small headband clone. Open tilled and amended beds. Headband brought this and ive battled it 3-4 years now. Some fine, some crap out, even led me to assume it was the cutting site on the mothers creating different results. top vs bottom cuts or? Almost always get 100% root but later its the dice roll thing. The two large plant pics are same cut, mom, handling and appearance. Just the results later..grr. if this is todes, im feeling they migrate in my clone water to infect others but not every cut in there. Some changes coming i hope.. Chitosan ? ill buy the tshirt if it works.
pics
If this isnt Dud, Im open to ideas. Still trying chitosan anyway tho
og, headband and exodus jack clones, all show different signs but always have the melon stem and white dry surface there. See the stem at groundline. I now think is called wool. Until now, i thought it was some freak salt toxicity from cloning. But it does happen sometimes with or w/out nutes in the rez. large plant is headband clone 12 feet away from small headband clone. Open tilled and amended beds. Headband brought this and ive battled it 3-4 years now. Some fine, some crap out, even led me to assume it was the cutting site on the mothers creating different results. top vs bottom cuts or? Almost always get 100% root but later its the dice roll thing. The two large plant pics are same cut, mom, handling and appearance. Just the results later..grr. if this is todes, im feeling they migrate in my clone water to infect others but not every cut in there. Some changes coming i hope.. Chitosan ? ill buy the tshirt if it works.
Yes the larger is free (or was) and just an example of healthy vs. infected from like plants at the outset. Testing is not available to me except on maybe dry wood staining.sorry. However it may be possible to on site verify after harvest. Sortof catch the bank robber by fingerprints on the broken window after he fled. It appears that labs includes tissue stain test which should be doable. I have to go back and locate the procedure. However, i am witness to brown "skidmarks" inside stems which i guess now to indicate the pectinase enzyme reaction thats been discussed. I also beleive all strains wont lose all trichomes but they are greatly lessened,terpenes as well, seem to greatly lessen. Yields? without saying, and then a very specific growth pattern as described. I have had and have now, plants with tode damage, so will take the suspects further in about 3 weeks.
over the time ive dealt with this, i have blamed myself with overfeeding, temps, overwater etc.., and a finicky strain. but never knew why it wasnt omnipresent across the group. with headband, at least, some infected, some arent. Cuts from the tops grow better normally, i just do not take bottom cuts ever anymore. However when pollenchunking, have always used bottom sites so may change that as well.. So far, knock on wood, i dont think its passed over seeds in my case, but, maybe, who knows.
Incidentally, it seems always, for me, to include rootzone issues. 2010, i picked this up in a dispensary clone tray and have bred the little fockers ever since.I am certain they can be eliminated, if we are aware and very selective.They dont seem to be great migraters. 2-3 clone cycles and separate cloners per mother. Stain testing maybe necessary all the time as well, but havent really any memory of stains in teenage plants; but doubt ive ever looked in them anyway. Anyway if i get flamed for this approach thats ok, still what i feel atm, i need to do. Will post up more pics as can get them, shouldnt be hard to find. I think egg/nesting something to research, if there is a site pattern. May help cloning out of this.Maybe predominately low in the plant. Thanks for the look Retro, it helps.
Incidentally, it seems always, for me, to include rootzone issues. 2010, i picked this up in a dispensary clone tray and have bred the little fockers ever since.I am certain they can be eliminated, if we are aware and very selective.They dont seem to be great migraters. 2-3 clone cycles and separate cloners per mother. Stain testing maybe necessary all the time as well, but havent really any memory of stains in teenage plants; but doubt ive ever looked in them anyway. Anyway if i get flamed for this approach thats ok, still what i feel atm, i need to do. Will post up more pics as can get them, shouldnt be hard to find. I think egg/nesting something to research, if there is a site pattern. May help cloning out of this.Maybe predominately low in the plant. Thanks for the look Retro, it helps.
with respect to the chicken or the egg, as i read this it seems Dipsaci is a vector for pythium and other insidiosum species. Further the populations explode when pythium fungus is available. Or so I understand the studies to indicate pythium is prime population booster and vector for insidiosum sp. in lab reared dipsaci studies. They jump it to related and non relative species in proximity as well. Nasty bxstxrds. Here is where i gather that conclusion.
http://ojs-dev.fcla.edu/index.php/jon/article/viewFile/64693/62361
http://www.apsnet.org/meetings/Documents/2014_meeting_abstracts/aps2014abP59.htm
If they are a known vector for insidiosum sp. fungi
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC541658/
http://ojs-dev.fcla.edu/index.php/jon/article/viewFile/64693/62361
http://www.apsnet.org/meetings/Documents/2014_meeting_abstracts/aps2014abP59.htm
If they are a known vector for insidiosum sp. fungi
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC541658/
plastochron
Member
what brand or chain length of chitosan are you using? i've only been able to find it online with little to know specs. what is your dilution rate?
also what is 'white flagging'?
and maybe the simplest clearest article Ive seen yet. better for dumb farmer like me.
http://www.ext.colostate.edu/pubs/crops/02952.html
http://www.ext.colostate.edu/pubs/crops/02952.html
no, i didn't even attempt to bring dudded plants back to life, i killed anything with symptoms and cut all (relatively) healthy moms down to clones. i took the kitchen sink approach and used a lot of stuff to treat all the clones. pylon, kontos, mefenoxam (for pythium and phytophthora,) and chitosan.
i did have plants that were about to be flipped, and were showing hints of nematode presence and those have been treated with just chitosan and bleach to keep everything sterile (i couldn't lose another room to rot/fungus) since my water has been HOT 78f. i just got a chiller now for RO storage.
i expected at least 30% of the flowering room to dud but the chitosan seems to have prevented it. they all look great.
there are brown patches at the base of many stems though. i'll be scoping them when i harvest in a few weeks.
dr farm i agree, it's best to clone from the tops of plants. it makes sense that they are in lower concentrations higher up. i'm gonna start running taller moms than i have in the past.
also keeping just the first 30-50% of clones that root probably helps a lot. i've started throwing away any clones that aren't rooted in 7 days. about half root in that time and the rest take an extra 3 days.
i do think that this is something that can be 'cloned away from' at least to drop the number of nematodes to below damaging levels.
from drfarms CO state link
"Nematode management must focus on reducing nematode numbers to levels below the damage threshold rather than eradication."
also keeping just the first 30-50% of clones that root probably helps a lot. i've started throwing away any clones that aren't rooted in 7 days. about half root in that time and the rest take an extra 3 days.
i do think that this is something that can be 'cloned away from' at least to drop the number of nematodes to below damaging levels.
from drfarms CO state link
"Nematode management must focus on reducing nematode numbers to levels below the damage threshold rather than eradication."
in regards to the chitosan oligosaccharide, it seems different molecular weights have different efficacy. something to look into as we decide on what chitosan is best. there didn't seem to be any options of molecular weights when i ordered from multiple sources but i imagine they are not all created equally or with identical processes.
i also need to call them and ask if there is a better way to dissolve the chitosan. when i mix with RO and shake until dissolved, it still slowly falls out of solution in the res. perhaps there is a way to mix it with something like ethanol or polyethylene glycol that is more effective.
i also need to call them and ask if there is a better way to dissolve the chitosan. when i mix with RO and shake until dissolved, it still slowly falls out of solution in the res. perhaps there is a way to mix it with something like ethanol or polyethylene glycol that is more effective.
on the taller clone tips.
utilizing their tendency to retreat in the plant, and from the plant in severe conditions, i had a similar idea. using retrogrows heat treatment idea in tandem with hotter mom rooms in general. grow them at an extreme temp with plenty of watering frequency and humidity to support the plants through 100 + veg temps for some days and an ultra high 122 degree heat treatment for couple hours just before taking cuts to encourage them to retreat at least from the furthest tallest tips. couple this technique with just using the apical meristem and i bet you could get nematode free clones. but id guess even traditional stem propagated clones would be a huge improvement if not a cure.
utilizing their tendency to retreat in the plant, and from the plant in severe conditions, i had a similar idea. using retrogrows heat treatment idea in tandem with hotter mom rooms in general. grow them at an extreme temp with plenty of watering frequency and humidity to support the plants through 100 + veg temps for some days and an ultra high 122 degree heat treatment for couple hours just before taking cuts to encourage them to retreat at least from the furthest tallest tips. couple this technique with just using the apical meristem and i bet you could get nematode free clones. but id guess even traditional stem propagated clones would be a huge improvement if not a cure.
i think using hot air to kill them inside foliage/top stems prior to cloning is a great idea. i'll certainly be using heat treatments in mom rooms again.
having incredibly healthy moms is definitely something that is necessary to beat this. it's also something that often separates great growers from average ones.
great moms make great clones make great plants make great harvests.
having incredibly healthy moms is definitely something that is necessary to beat this. it's also something that often separates great growers from average ones.
great moms make great clones make great plants make great harvests.
Except when they are caused by broad or cyclamen mites. They and the todes all inject a toxin/growth regulator, which is what causes the "dudding". You maintain that ALL OGs have these nematodes, yet there are no test results showing this.
Why haven't you sent samples to lab to confirm this?
Why has no one else with OGs found them or sent them to a lab for confirmation?
Why are you not sending samples in for testing?
i don't think storm said ALL OGs have them, just that they are the most susceptible.
let's not go back to fighting over semantics, it doesn't help.
this thread should be what the title says, collective knowledge. eventually once we have all the important info collected and a good treatment/IPM + proven tips and tricks then i'm sure one of us will make a thread "Duds and Stem Nematodes - info and treatment methods."
let's not go back to fighting over semantics, it doesn't help.
this thread should be what the title says, collective knowledge. eventually once we have all the important info collected and a good treatment/IPM + proven tips and tricks then i'm sure one of us will make a thread "Duds and Stem Nematodes - info and treatment methods."
may be too that they seem to like a fungal environment that any group susceptible to pm, or moisture environ pathogens is their favorite neighborhood. thinking sativa doms again, mostly tropic, may have better fungal resistance, whereas afghani types may not have developed fungal resistance in evolution.. And this stuff sounds nice eitherfoliar or soil but not systemic, and with chitosan and actinovate on the shelf. Its a pretty good weapon system. I think? http://www.valent.com/agriculture/products/ditera/
The chitosan i found is 55 - 120 us$ a kilo + freight depending on the grade. Is that about right?
The chitosan i found is 55 - 120 us$ a kilo + freight depending on the grade. Is that about right?
G`day DF
I`ve found that .
Sativa dom plants resist fusarium / pythium better than their afghani dom cousins .
I`m thinking the conditions that encourage root diseases . Are the same environment the Todes like .
I asked Stormy if he saw a diff summer and winter . As usual no reply .
Thanks for sharin
EB .
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