Late flowering - Too much Nitrogen

[Magik401]

Hi,

I've caused myself a bit of a problem with my current coco grow by making a mess with the nutrients. I've been using CX hydroponics for coco and I kept feeding Grow for too long and have ended up with way too much leaf and it's pretty dark. I've flushed all the pots through with plain water and I'm now just feeding a weak solution Cx hydro "Head masta". Is this the right thing to do? What's the best way to remedy the situation?

If any could give a run down of their feeding schedule & flush out when using coco that'd be great , will be useful for next time! Thanks

 

[Weeded1s]

Look uo h3ads goes coco thread in the sticky section. 6/9 and a pinch babyee is another good thread going right now. Jump on board homie. General hydroponis micro and bloom bottles are all u need..not the grow. (U can use an jungle juice its the same exact thing but supposedly made better. (Same price) then 6/9 pr gal ratio frombveg to flower. No additives or anything else. Its easy. KISS. In veg you might run 3/4.5 pr gal and a 1/4 epsom (keep epsom salt on hand and only use if mag. deff). Everyone is loving it ..checkbit out and do some research on it. Thats my advice for easy and stable.

 

[Snow Crash]

CX Nutrients uses a 1-part Coco formula for the entire cycle. The ratio on it is something like 5-2-4. Similar to CANNA Coco, but a little shorter on the Phosphorus.

Their line is intended to be used at a rate of 4ml/Liter of the Base and 1ml/Liter each of the HeadMasta, Regen-a-root, and Wilt Guard through flowering. The inclusion of the HeadMasta and the Wilt Guard will alter the NPK ratio to be less Nitrogen dominant (while still offering a pretty hefty amount of N).

I think their base feed suggestion is too high. The 4ml/L will net you more than 200ppm of Nitrogen in that solution, which is extreme to say the least. I absolutely hate it when a company suggests as much food as a plant could possibly hope to need. I would think return business would be important...

2ml/L of the Base with 1ml/L of the supplements is a much better NPK ratio and strength for plants in coco during bloom. The HeadMasta (1-2-2 I think) Doesn't add much even at 4ml/Gallon, so I would probably consider adding another product in there to help out. Any basic PK booster, Liquid KoolBloom would be high up on my list, at just 1-2ml/L is going to have the kind of impact that I think this system needs.

Here's a link to their feed guides

 

[Magik401]

Thanks for the help! I've had a read through the sticky section, some really good stuff going on there. I think for the next grow I might run a comparison between the CX Hydro and GH 6/9, might go a little lighter on the CX feed though!

I've got about 3 weeks left to go so I might just give them a very long flush otherwise it's not gonna taste very sweet

 

[Weeded1s]

6/9 is where the homies kik it at.

 

[Miraculous Meds]

IF they have the coco cec ratio of npk correct they all work. I go with gh 6/9 for simplicity. If they look to hot or deep green just reduce the concentration and keep the same ratios, basicly add more water. Then I just taper off with fresh water in my res reducing concentration as they finish the last 2 weeks, never dumping and using just water cause it will fuck you cec and you wont flush out near as much. Done it almost all ways with all kinds of nutes and additive and what I found was it never got better quality or yield than the recipe I just gave u. Just cost me years of experience and countless thousands in wasted products to figure it out.

 

[Miraculous Meds]

If I had followed somebodys advice like mine when I was a newb Id be sitting on some tropical beach right now. But we live and learn. gl MM

 

[stoned40yrs]

I forget what forum it is but there is a guru on there with a legion of followers and they believe in keeping the plant nice and green all the way to the end with plenty of N, cough, cough.

 

[papaduc]

Cannabis growers invest way too much time in formulas and plant food. It is a broad range feeder and all you need to know is it follows the same rules most other fruiting plants do - lower the N in flower and increase the P&K...

If you buy 3-5-8 tomato food and feed at 1.0ec you'll get a better harvest than most people who use 10 bottles of boutique bullshit.

The cannabis nutrient market is structured the way it is for a reason, that reason being they know the people buying their products will have nobody else to ask for advice other than them, and nowhere else to get information other than fellow growers whose knowledge is second hand hydro pseudo science.

For example, there's no tomato food that I know of where you have to buy the P&K in a separate bottle to "adjust" yourself... they just have balanced feed and fruiting feed.

Something which is 5-2-4 as mentioned above, is a veg feed if used alone, but they tell you to buy another bottle and use that to make it into a bloom feed... Just buy a better bloom feed is my advice

Nobody can know whether the plant is using x amount of P or K at any given time, all you can know is how your buds are forming and whether you're happy.

There are a few schools of thought... higher K than P throughout flower... higher P to firm them up... higher P to start flowering then higher K til the end.... Reducing P to finish or raising P and reducing N to finish...

They all revolve around different processes in the plant at different stages in it's life. Some say reducing the N and raising the P - like you see in "Final" formulas - is the way to get a good harvest and smooth burn... other people say it's the P which makes your buds burn harshly and you should lower that towards the end.. There are so many conflicting methods because nobody is settled on which is definitely best.

One thing you do know is nitrogen in high amounts is no good. Anything low N and higher P&K is what you want for flowering.

 

[CloudyAmberDay]

I forget what forum it is but there is a guru on there with a legion of followers and they believe in keeping the plant nice and green all the way to the end with plenty of N, cough, cough.

The Guru is Uncle Ben

Website is Roll It Up

Homebrewer and him are somewhat a like

They both preach lots of N in flower but I always wondered about this.

Some will use N all the way to chop and no flush and say it taste great. I don't get it.

Snow Crash / papaduc hit the nail on the head. Just curious to the cons of Lots of N in flower - I've been swung so many ways...

(If I missed the sarcastic statement, I apologize, I'm very literal )

 

[nukklehead]

6/9 is where the homies kik it at.

Where half the homies kick it... lol..

The other half ( in coco) kick the maxibloom kiss method...

Either will get the job done..

I tried both.. didnt see a difference...

Maxi is dry, easy...

6/9 is wet and easy... lol...... but requires a lot of shaking.. lol..

Either way is the easiest to grow in coco dtw....

so you like chevy or ford... ???............thats about the difference..

Nuk

 

[papaduc]

Just curious to the cons of Lots of N in flower - I've been swung so many ways...

The cons are, it's bad. It's as simple as that. I don't make final definite judgements on which exact way is best because a lot of it is for you, and me, to experiment. Which ratios of what and on which strain etc will probably always be a bit different.

There are a few companies who sell high N bloom feeds. In the UK right now in certain little pockets there are people who, like the fella on that forum you mention, are preoccupied with the greenness of the foliage rather than the swelling of the flowers. It's almost as bad as the calmag obsession over in the states, which can have a similarly bad effect.

Both ways disregard the basic knowledge which gardeners have had in their locker for decades now - lower your nitrogen in flower or you'll promote leaf and stem growth at the expense of buds.

Below is the same strain on a high nitrogen feed and on a normal tomato food. The difference is very pronounced.

The calyx to leaf ratio is where it's at when you're growing weed. The calyxes are your tomatoes, or your pumpkins...

It's easy to know what the tomato or pumpkin should look like, so when you go out to your garden, while you look at the leaves to gauge the overall health of the plant, ( and a garden of pumpkin leaves is so cool) you know where to look to see the size of your fruit. It's easy to identify what you're looking for, whether or not you know how to make them bigger or better.

But a lot of people don't know what to look for when they're looking at a pot plant. They see a nice green plant and they might think it's a good thing. But a slightly pale plant with well developed calyxes is better than a dark green one with small underdeveloped ones.

Squash leaves look like shit at the end of the season, but the fruits don't.

Look at these two and you can see clearly what I mean. The calyx to leaf ratio is clearly different on both pictures. One is predominantly leaf, the other predominantly calyx. The calyx is your fruit, not the leaf.

 

[stihgnobevoli]

^^^ very well put together post.

while there are disagreements as to how to grow marijuana i just let the plants tell me how they want to grow. it's how i was taught.

in veg plants need a lot of N and cal more than the other major ones

as they move to flower they start using more mag and K as well

by mid flower they have done using lots of nitrogen (after stretch is over) you can start tapering down. this is when you would bump the PK and Mg when the flowers are at their most aggressive rate of growth.

3/4 through flowering the plant slows down a little and most of the pistils have started turning. this is when i start cutting off all nutes. i taper down certain nutes (6:9) and taper up certain nutes from week 4 though this point. after this point i stop all feeding and water with only molasses if anything to keep magnesium available to the plant. there is enough of everything else left in the soil and the plant to last the next 2-3 weeks.

after 2-4 weeks of plain water or water molasses. i use the molasses first then last week just water only to make sure i cut out all the minerals i can with the exception of what comes in the tap.

then chop. i like my plants to look sorta like this when i chop.

everything yellowing, all the major fans should be yellow and fallen/falling off. secondary fans yellow or really pale, pistils all mostly if not all turned and receding.

 

[Weeded1s]

Papas nailed it!

 

[nukklehead]

Papas nailed it!

noted.... soil retains nutes... what about coco dtw etc....

 

[Weeded1s]

Nukkle chk out the coco dtw run off thread ...were going over all of it their.

 

[DrFever]

Hey everyone. I read this statement a lot wherever I go, and people seem to preach it almost religiously. That 'nitrogen during flowering should be drastically reduced or completely cut out'. I hear people giving advice like avoiding fertilizers and additives completely because of trace amounts of nitrogen, "which is bad for a flowering plant."

There's also a million different reasons people use to support this theory. People will tell you that nitrogen present during flowering will: reduce the size of your buds, affect the taste/smell in a negative way and cause excessive 'stretch' in the buds making them fluffy and elongated. Some people will say it's just "bad." My experiences go completely against this. In fact, I advise to cut out nitrogen completely if you want plenty of yellow leaves, lack-luster bud growth and a weaker plant that are less vigorous and not able to repair breaks and cuts as efficiently.

I do almost all of my growing outdoors, in the ground and in modified Hempy-style buckets. By a rough side-by-side comparison, the plants with the most nitrogen during flowering are by far the biggest and most vigorous. They look like they are going to fill out better and they look healthier overall. Plant Senescence seems to have been prolonged, consequently holding of Abscission (falling of leaves), and the buds smell just as sweet if not more than their mothers and counterparts. The additional benefit is the yellowing is reduced so they are also less visible compared to plants fed with little amounts of nitrogen. Ideally I like to time it so that nitrogen starts running out in the last week of bud production.

Anyone have an opinion on this? To me it just seems weird that this would be beneficial. Plants grow in the ground, and have evolved to do so since the dawn of time, and there has always been sufficient amounts of nitrogen available.

 

[DrFever]

^^^ very well put together post.

while there are disagreements as to how to grow marijuana i just let the plants tell me how they want to grow. it's how i was taught.

in veg plants need a lot of N and cal more than the other major ones

as they move to flower they start using more mag and K as well

by mid flower they have done using lots of nitrogen (after stretch is over) you can start tapering down. this is when you would bump the PK and Mg when the flowers are at their most aggressive rate of growth.


3/4 through flowering the plant slows down a little and most of the pistils have started turning. this is when i start cutting off all nutes. i taper down certain nutes (6:9) and taper up certain nutes from week 4 though this point. after this point i stop all feeding and water with only molasses if anything to keep magnesium available to the plant. there is enough of everything else left in the soil and the plant to last the next 2-3 weeks.

after 2-4 weeks of plain water or water molasses. i use the molasses first then last week just water only to make sure i cut out all the minerals i can with the exception of what comes in the tap.

then chop. i like my plants to look sorta like this when i chop.
View Image
View Image
everything yellowing, all the major fans should be yellow and fallen/falling off. secondary fans yellow or really pale, pistils all mostly if not all turned and receding.

What the hell is that So in other words you starve your plants hmm ok guess you should get back to the basics really understanding Key rolls of all macro and micro nutrients thru all 4 stages of growth ????? kinda sickly looking plant don't you think ?? and that is why plant did not produce know where 's near what it was capable of

 

[DrFever]

I like to fertilize with enough nitrogen to keep all but the lowest leaves from yellowing and falling off for as long as I can. The yellowing and dropping of the leaves is known as abscission and is partially due to nitrogen being relocated to higher (apical) parts of the plant. This is easily observed during oncoming and peak of flowering.

The hormone Ethylene is responsible for the promotion of abscission and effectively ‘tells’ the plant (for lack of better words) to do so, by overriding other hormones such as Auxin and Cytokinin. Those hormones are responsible for splitting and elongating cells (increasing mass of the plant as well as any recognizable growth). Auxins and Cytokinins also force or promote the storage and concentration of nutrients in the apical (Auxins) and lateral (Cytokinins) leaves, buds etc. For example, think about why the tops of plants are always greener and more vibrant.

Auxin’s, which actually work against abscission and have proven to completely stop it in some plants. They are produced and found in the highest concentrations at the very tops of plants. Auxin’s promote every type of growth (besides lateral) at certain concentrations, as well as forcing nutrients to the respective areas that they are most concentrated. When the concentration of Auxin weakens (starting from the very lowest points of the plant), cells become more sensitive to Ethylene (a natural gas-hormone responsible for ripening/rotting fruit), which triggers the acceleration of senescence (aging) and in term abscission.

As for a quick note on Cytokinin: It is a direct rival of Auxin in that the balance between the two stimulates different types of growth. If the Cytokinin: Auxin ratio is more prominent on the Cytokinin side, lateral growth is allowed and your lower branches will all grow freely. If the Auxins overpower Cytokinin, you’ll notice your plants will have little leaves/shoots known as ‘dormant buds’ that don’t start growing.

So if you’re still reading, you will be wondering what any of this has to do with nitrogen during flowering. Basically I just wanted to lay down a foundation before elaborating on nitrogen's role in all of this. You’ve probably heard that high levels of nitrogen can ‘prolong the onset of flowering’, which to me makes sense.

Here are a few facts about nitrogen and plants:

• Nitrogen combines with other elements such as Carbon, Hydrogen and Oxygen etc. to form ‘Amino Acids’.
• Amino acids form protoplasm, which facilitates “cell division” and consequently the potential for plant growth and development
• Amino acids are considered the ‘building blocks’ of protein
• All plant enzymes are made up of protein. Enzymes are considered catalysts for all chemical conversions within a plant, therefore the successful functioning of the plants ‘digestive system’ , hormone synthesis and general function
• Nitrogen is a crucial part of chlorophyll and necessary for photosynthesis (your buds might be coated white, but they’re still green underneath )

So with the previously listed points in mind, I’d like to point out that the most common and important “growth promoting” hormones, Auxins and Cytokinins, all contain nitrogen in their chemical structure. If a plant is lacking nitrogen, it will have to disperse its limited supply amongst all of its metabolic functions and may not be able to keep up supply of crucial Auxins and Cytokinins. This is why I agree with the proposal that high levels of nitrogen can delay flowering, because a large supply would likely attribute to the production of more Auxins and Cytokinins, which would delay Ethylene production/dominance.

It’s worth noting that neither Ethylene nor Gibberellin (which is responsible for stretchy, long-distance inter-node growth in marijuana, as well as being used as a foliar spray for producing male flowers (think:hermies) contain any nitrogen in their composition. So, nitrogen is not responsible, at least directly to the synthesis of these two hormones. This is why I am skeptical about the idea that excess nitrogen causes ‘hermies’.

 

[DrFever]

great Vid and look at the green lol and listen do it right or don't do it all

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VhcLzC5VhuI