High-CBD Charlotte's Web strain more hype than help

[mexcurandero420]

I totally agree that we have yet to begin to fully understand what's truly at work. I also agree that the entourage effect until recently has been seriously downplayed. I just don't understand what's wrong with utilizing the information we already have. Is it not documented that CBD is beneficial? So what's wrong with using that for marketing purposes? What is the alternative?

Not only CBD is beneficial, but also THC or any other cannabinoid.For me for example THCV is important ic with THC, which can only be found in certain strains like the good old Durban or from Ghana.Different profile of terpenes has also its effect through the limbic system in the brain, so it is not easy to say that CW is the strain to treat seizures, since we humans act different.
Use it for marketing tools would be foolish.

Keep on growing

 

[Elmer Bud]

The gene at locus O allows the production of the initial phenolic precursors (resorcinolic acids). These combine with geranyl pyrophosphate to create the intermediate cannabinoids CBG and/or CBGV, the central precursors for the end-product cannabinoids THC(V), CBD(V) and CBC(V). The functional allele O is co-dominant; O/o hybrids have a low cannabinoid content and o/o plants are cannabinoid-free.

The ratio of propyl- and pentyl cannabinoid precursors is determined by a postulated locus A, which is still under investigation.

The CBG/CBGV intermediate is further processed by the alleles of locus B. BD and BT are co-dominant; the BD gene converts CBG(V) into CBD(V) and the BT gene converts CBG(V) into THC(V). In the BD/BT genotype, codominance allows the expression of a mixed CBD/THC chemotype. Also at this locus, non-functional alleles, designated B0 can exist; these are unable to convert the CBG(V) intermediate and leave the plant with a CBG(V) predominant chemotype.

Locus C is fixed so all plants have CBC synthase activity. CBC synthase competes for the same CBG(V) precursor as the synthases encoded by locus B (THC and/or CBD synthase). In 'normal' Cannabis plants, CBC synthase is only active in the juvenile state. However, our scientists have discovered genetic factors that induce morphological mutations that are associated with a 'prolonged juvenile chemotype'. Prototype CBC production plants carry these factors in combination with B0/B0 at locus B. In these plants CBC synthase has no competition from THC or CBD synthase.

 

[Useful Idiot]

Useful Idiot
You jealous .it was on CNN with Gupta .ass hole some one does something pos and some ass crawls out from bathe shit to say it is his idea

Not quite sure why you are being so nasty towards me. I shared an article. I am trying to help a family. And you post this in response!! WTF, I refuse to argue with anyone....that is not why I am here. I hope this message finds you well.

 

[Chunkypigs]

one part of the USA CBD story that isn't in the good explanation above is that a guy from cali 5 years ago selfed a high CBD ratio pheno in Spain and he had/has a small seed bank in cali called feminized seeds. he brought a cooler full of his feminized cannatonic to a big hempcon festival in LA 4 years ago where Dr Courtney was making a lecture about the benefits of CBD and cannabis juicing. I happened to be sitting next to him and when he started selling them grabbed some. this was the seed run that produced the test results that are widely used to promote canna tonic. Dr. Courtney's nurse grew out a couple packs and these are the results.

many times people buy from resin and think they are getting the seeds that grew the plants in the chart above.

many of the different clones passed around Cali and now everywhere come from beans sold that Saturday afternoon I suspect. I can confirm that I was among the disappointed hippies who was hoping for a cure with the CBD but just found it wrecked my buzz. nobody I ever passed it to wanted more of anything but the all THC pheno until the Dr. Sanjay TV shows… that homeboy out hyped even cookies using those sick kids.

here's the all THC keeper of cannatonic I found in those packs.

 

[Only Ornamental]

Those stories are all nice and such but...
What doesn't add up is the presumed lineage of allegedly 'noble' parentage (famous hybrids). These varieties are with no exception pure THC chemovars. But CBD doesn't simply pop up, the gene (BD allele, see post #22) has to come from somewhere .
It may have been from hemp, resulting at first in rather 'poor' plants (low cannabinoid content, stretchy etc.) or more likely from a charas/hash variety showing immediately a way higher total cannabinoid content and maintaining the typical growth pattern of drug type varieties.
Stray pollen might have flown in from Morocco (Spain gets considerable amounts of Moroccan cannabis pollen, up to a point where people get hay fever from it), came from a seed found in hash/charas and grown out, brought back from a holiday in the Himalayas, or bought at RSC.

Using hemp as source for the BD allele results in about the same struggles you get when starting an auto-line using wild hemp (aka 'ruderalis'). The offspring may be good enough for extracts though.

Me personally, I have to try that CBD stuff again. I never appreciated hash, it just messes up the high but I couldn't feel any medicinal advantage. On the other hand, consuming hemp does help me with the cough and a sore throat way better than drug type cannabis. I suppose this anti-inflammatory activity is due to the higher amount of for example beta-caryophyllene in hemp than the cannabis varieties I tried so far (the smell tells me so too).

Besides, it's been known for years that people react different to THC and CBD with regard to medicinal benefits though it's still a mystery why. Some don't react at all, others only need very low dose, whereas the third group needs a lot to feel a relief. This susceptibility depends on the disease but does not necessarily correlate with how high people get!

 

[mexcurandero420]

Back in the 90s it was possible to buy seeds from the strain Red Dawn which seemed to be from the Kirov region in Russia.It had autoflowering properties, but to get high from it wasn't possible, to low in THC, but it did very well against the bronchitis i had.Still have seeds, but if they germinate is another question.

Looked like this specimen below.What i can remember it had a very piney aroma and resistant against fungi.

Keep on growing

 

[rolandomota]

Anyone hear of "good medicine" its a strain with high cbd phenos tested at 10% cbd 10 %thc by bhodi? I got a pack free a while back its a harlequin x appalachia i think.

 

[Only Ornamental]

...the strain Red Dawn which seemed to be from the Kirov region in Russia...

The two parental lines used to create Finola came from Kirov too . Maybe they are related?

 

[mexcurandero420]

At that time i bought the seeds in a growshop.The only one who knows more is Sam.

Keep on growing

 

[KiefSweat]

A strain called R4 floating around Colorado is Charlotte's web. But CBD high plants should work. Have any strain tested for CBD to find the best pheno to use.
Always like the idea of a 1 to 1 ratio and Dieseltonic sounds like a good strain from cannatonic. Testing is important to find the pheno to use especially if you plan to breed with it..

everyone repeats the fact that r4 is cw. I've yet to see any test results or finished product that states the same. The wu/r4 is a potent plant but its got a lot of characteristics that don't make it a good production plant. the cw seems like it grows even worse.

 

[paladin420]

We have several cannatonics in the stable.
The highest ratio being the 'Perkins cut' of Cannatonic 38/1 or better. Thanks agin Huel .. (Member here an all around good guy to have around)
Canna #4 12/1 or better
Also a strain at 1/1 %7-8

We find our patients respond best long term with separate strains. Usually in an oil or tinc.
We let them blend as needed for the time of day or whatever.

As to the lineage? And hype?
1. Mama's baby.papa's maybe?
2. Hype is good... For the future of our patients

 

[PrimalHaze]

Yeah like practically the 90% of true CBD strains nowadays, indeed they are all phenos and crosses from the same original spanish strains besides all those fancy names haha...

But what no one says is that Cannatonic it's also just a pheno of another strain from a third seedbank and not MK Ultra X G13 like they say lol. Resin Seeds (and by extension all the people working with those genetics and spreading bullshit all over the world) are just making cash from the original strains discovered by the Spanish seedbank Reggae Seeds, they were the first guys who found those rare CBD phenos in their strains (Dub, Dancehall, Juanita) and started working with them in 2004-2006. They were crosses made from a CBD rich NYC Diesel male (Soma Seeds) and Queen Mother strain (Delicatessen Seeds).

Later in 2008 Jaime from Resin seeds got 7000 seeds from them (via Alex, who was Soma's son-in-law) and from there, they selected a few CBD rich phenotypes and named them Cannatonic and Dulce Canna, but they were simply phenos of Dancehall or Dub strains from Reggae Seeds. Time after that, he also founded CBD Crew with Shantiblabla and they started hyping up all the CBD bullshit.



Same with medical projects like Tikum Olam in Israel. They simply got packs from Jaime, first some Cannatonic packs and later 300 feminised seeds of Z6 and Z7. They used all those strains to select Avi-Dekel (16.3% CBD), Midnight (12.4 % CBD), El-Na (6.5 % CBD) or Rafael (18.6% CBD) but they are in fact simply different phenotypes of the same plants. They haven't been doing any super special scientific breeding or anything like that, just growing those seeds they got from Jaime.

So the sad thing is that the ones taking the credit by all this CBD trend are not even the strain creators but just some greedy guys making he most from the trend and other people's work. It's always the same old story, even though Reggae Seeds were also working with stuff from others (Delicatessen Seeds and Soma) already instead of doing proper breeding with landraces or their own genetics.

It appears from that story that Alex was the shady one in this story. I'm not sure how you can blame Jaime for paying Alex to make specific seeds for him, then he comes back with some random seeds from Jimi. Jaime then goes with the plan and selects and sells cannatonic.

How do you pull Shantibaba into this? Just to make fun of him?
CBD has medical benefits, period. So how is it hype to use published medical studies to educate about CBD? The cbd crew was formed so people that didnt have access or didnt want to buy Sativex could make it themselves for a fraction of the price. No one stopped Jimi from advertising his strains and getting them tested and forming a joint venture with medical minded seed companies.

Cannatonic and Afg/SK was used to make the test strains Z6, Z7, Z8. I think you can only get these directly.

The CBD crew's official strains don't even use cannatonic. Heres a quote from back in 2012

Hi All

well I believe the CBDcrew strains labelled 1 to 10 were our final strains that are now in offer on the cbd-crew range, nothing to do with cannatonic in actual fact.
The Z series was Cannatonic x Nordle, correct and then the selection based on testing after that....so Z6 is nothing to do with CBD 6. Different lines. As we evolved with the testing and selections we were able to enrich strains with cbd.It is not as easy as crossing a CBD plant to another and the testing is important to proceed. I have not come across 20%CBD plants but I am sure they could exist.
We are just beginning on this ride so do not expect everyone to follow everything until it is measured , verified and tested...all this takes time for each plant. So persistence and help from individual growers and medical patients will make this project successful.

All the best sb

According to the soft secrets article Jimi didn't even test his plants until 2010

"During the first Spannabis, in 2004, Jimi (Reggae Seeds) buy a pack of New York City at the same Diesel Soma Soma Seeds. The selection is left with three males, one had a special Diesel smell. This creates Juanita male Lagrimosa (Queen Mother x New York City Diesel) and Kalijah (Blue Heaven x New York City Diesel). A friend of Jimi, from the seeds of crossing Queen Mother x New York City Diesel, selected, in Mallorca, the original clone Lagrimosa Juanita. Jimi makes a selection of Kalijah in which it is set in one of the males do not bloomed to 18 hours, "was megaresinoso and smelled great," he recalls. This establishes the basis of male Reggae Dancehall Seeds with crosses as (Juanita Kalijah Lagrimosa x), Session (New York City Diesel x Kalijah) or Dub (Critical Mass x Kalijah). Everything points to that introduced Diesel CBD male part of subsequent offspring, including Juanita and the male Kalijah Lagrimosa.
Alex, son of Soma, Jimi visit in 2008 and I buy a lot of seeds that have not paid. These seeds are sold into Jaime as a crossing Mk Ultra x G13Haze. In this batch of seeds Jaime plant about 100 seeds and selects Cannatonic and Cannatonic II. Freeman, a friend who then collaborated with Reggae Seeds, seeds and plant another 50 selected Dulce Canna and poussin, now known as the Dieseltonic.
Jaime Cannatonic participates in the High Times Cannabis Cup 2008 Amsterdam and is third in the Sativa category. For the first time a spatial lish bank gets a prize in a High Times Cannabis Cup. Spannabis In 2009 Jaime Cannatonic testa, Dulce Canna and poussin, discovering its high content of CBD, a whole sur- prize at the time. During the years 2009 and 2010 Jaime invests all its resources to spread to the world the happy discovery, making the first marketing campaign with a variety CBD.
In 2010 Jimi testa Spannabis Juanita Lagrimosa and confirms the intuition that Reggae Seeds varieties containing CBD. "

 

[Bulldog420]

Does anybody else think high CBD is what we used to call "stress" weed back in the day. Shit that when you smoked didn't get you high? Bammer stress.

 

[PrimalHaze]

Maybe if it had no thc to it.

The thc/cbd buds i've smoked were the opposite of stress weed. More like valium.

No one ever mentions that DJ short wrote about the "no high" bud he bred. Could've been an all cbd plant. But I think he mentions something about it not having many trichs too.

 

[Only Ornamental]

...
CBD has medical benefits, period. So how is it hype to use published medical studies to educate about CBD? ...

Only according to Sanjay Gupta, who is a neurosurgeon but most of all a charismatic and 'mediatic' figure. That means, his education and occupation do not qualify him to really understand medicinal plants (if I may put that in such a blunt and reductionistic way).
The beneficial effects of CBD, apart from a very few when combined with THC, are based on experiences of some isolated cases. The fame of CBD is purely based on hype and marketing ;( . I'm not saying that it doesn't have pharmacological effects but they remain to be found and proven first.

 

[PrimalHaze]

Howdy Only Ornamental,

I agree there is enormous hype with the stanleys and charlottes web and the cbd only laws. Gupta is just reporting. By discrediting Gupta are you trying to discredit cbd as a medicine too?

I can't speak of cbd only meds, i've only tried thc/cbd and I enjoy it. I don't have any care to experience meds void of THC. Scott from rare dankness smoked some 17%thc-11%cbd DieselTonic bud and said it was like being high for the first time again. This dude does serious dabs too.

If you think it is all hype I don't know what to tell you. These people who take it for epilepsy and seizures are faking it? Dr. Mechoulam is a quack?

 

[Only Ornamental]

Nope, I'm not trying to discredit Gupta but am just saying that he was the spark who ignited the whole CBD boom by talking about nearly anecdotal individual cases on TV. If I'm not mistaken, Charlotte has a very rare form of severe epilepsy and CBD seems to help her (I believe that she doesn't lie about that, why should she and I am truly happy for her that she found something against her illness). There are other studies and clinical trials on epilepsy and alike where CBD didn't work or led to contradictory or non-interpretable results (last time I checked, all of them). For now, everyone has to try of his/her own and see if it helps or not (like all the medicine was discovered before the era of in vitro assays and clinical trials).

The current knowledge points towards some effectiveness of CBD, although we don't know for sure, let alone how and where it acts. Certainly worth looking at this molecule.
I myself am fooling around with breeding hemp to drug type cannabis to get my own personal experiences with THC, CBD, and a mix thereof.

I don't see the link to Mechoulam... did I miss something?

Besides, when it comes to pain and neurological issues, the placebo effect is not to neglect either (in children it contributes with roughly 40% to pain relief)!

 

[KiefSweat]

I think SamS had the right idea when trying to create "pure" cbd lines, its more beneficial to have a purified extract and then compound it as necessary with other chemicals for the perfect ratio to treat whatever.

In my experiences the almost pure cbd extracts do have an effect, there highly anti-inflammatory and i believe work with a lot of these ailments that normal pharmaceuticals don't treat since they are truly immune issues.

 

[oldchuck]

OO, I agree 'mo betta science is needed, however...

A pure Finola ethanol extract stops my seizures cold. I have epilepsy, not as bad as sweet Charlotte but you don't fake a seizure and I don't see how placebo effect could be a factor. A seizure is like an earthquake in the brain. Now, Finola, as I understand it, has a tiny pinch of THC and a significant pinch (although still quite small) of CBD. Remarkably, actually surprisingly, it works for me.

In addition, as you may recall, I have a Satori/Finola cross I am trying out. It is a delightfully light smoke. It's not all that powerful but tasty and leaves a very pleasant head in its wake

 

[Only Ornamental]

Right, most don't fake a seizure and certainly nobody can fake the cessation of one.
I'm not saying CBD doesn't work ! I'm saying that current knowledge (and it has been showen over and over again that what we believe to be true isn't always the truth, the whole truth, and only the truth) combined with state of the art pharmaceutical and clinical practices (which reduce patients to numbers and effects to probabilities) do not support a conclusive efficacy of CBD against most of the diseases folks use it for.
Though, cases like your own help building a good working hypothesis for research to come and most certainly are very promising.

Does THC work as well as CBD for you? Does it reduce seizure frequency too? Ever tried THC/CBD free hemp or plain essential oil?
Don't get me wrong, but if you can take an extract, the seizures don't seem that strong (though certainly not pleasant either)?? I may be jumping to conclusions here, but were it possible that the placebo effect (and a placebo effect is anything but faking something, it is a real effect!) does at least part of the trick? Epilepsy is a weird illness in so far that it can be triggered by behaviour and lifestyle; smoking something which relaxes you (as in your conciousness and your muscles) will ultimately 'relax' your neurons too and probably stop them from firing uncontrolled??