Dud Identification Collective Knowledge.

[xxxstr8edgexxx]

UC Davis IPM calls for hot water treatment to be 110.3 degrees for thirty minutes. www.ipm.ucdavis.edu/PMG/r280400211.html another possibly more practical method is 100 percent humidity at 110.3 degrees for larger plants. In my limited experience doing this it seems the water would only be practical for smaller plants, like cuttings, because the plant floats and temps are higher on the bottom of the water container. It's interesting as a possibility against nematodes though as well, at 111 degrees for thirty minutes. For larger plants and broad mites 120 air makes more sense. It should be noted I have yet to successfully try the 110 degree water dip, but t seems like a no-brainer to at least give it a shot

ok. thank you for the post.
i apologize in advance for the lack of reading on my part. there has been both a birthday and a death in the family. i am also behind with grow tasks and am in the middle of pretty intense bureaucratic legal proceeding .
i am laxing on my reading duties and am relying on skimming this to stay in the loop. so i am appreciative for all the post summarizing the links. haha/
anyway
tests under way.
110 degree soak of rooting bare root clone cutting.
purpose to assess tolerance of hot water soak around 110 degrees give or take 2.5 degress but mostly held at 110.
duration 30 minutes.
stay tuned.

a little suspense for the weed dorks.

 

[xxxstr8edgexxx]

at 30 minute mark rapid cooled with introduction of a cold water stream into pot of water taking it from 111 to 73 degrees over the course of about 20 seconds let sit an additional 10 seconds and placed in a cup of 73 degree water on a counter at room temp....well maybe its 80 i only use ac in one part of my house .

10 minutes after soak no real signs of distress.

my guess is the damage, if it occurred would be most pronounced in the meristem cells. this would likely not be apparent for some amount of time. probably days. however if the cutting doesnt die, at least we would have this as a tolerance test for developing a plan for heating nematodes to death inside the plant if this is indeed a temperature capable of doing so.

 

[xxxstr8edgexxx]

right away im thinking about how this could be done to explants the size of a house fly in a flask with a magnetic stirring plate and a heating probe.
set to 110.3 stirring tiny cuttings in solution for 30 minutes and immediately placing into invitro culture with a laminar flow hood. meanwhile pulling a few samples aside to macerate in a small ammount of water to look for live or dead toades on slides.
ill make arrangements to use the flow hood i have at my disposal next week if possible.

i need to gain acess to a dud that has confirmed nematoades to run this experiment to see if its a viable way to create a zero survival rate to save clone only genetics and or to transport genetics from one room to another safely. it wont take much of a survival rate to prove useful as long as it yields a zero survival rate of nematodes.

please anyone who is reading this with nematode positive plants who alos thinks this is a worthwhile test please try it or some variation. im excited to try it myself. ill contact the dud havers i know to see if any of them have found any todes in theirs to see if i can get a few branches to try this with.

 

[RetroGrow]

at 30 minute mark rapid cooled with introduction of a cold water stream into pot of water taking it from 111 to 73 degrees over the course of about 20 seconds let sit an additional 10 seconds and placed in a cup of 73 degree water on a counter at room temp....well maybe its 80 i only use ac in one part of my house .

10 minutes after soak no real signs of distress.

my guess is the damage, if it occurred would be most pronounced in the meristem cells. this would likely not be apparent for some amount of time. probably days. however if the cutting doesnt die, at least we would have this as a tolerance test for developing a plan for heating nematodes to death inside the plant if this is indeed a temperature capable of doing so.

You need 120F to kill them and for a longer time period, as posted.

 

[Sam_Skunkman]

Just to clear something up, from my reading: Ditylenchus dipsaci do not enter through the roots, but rather the stomata. So they come in through the leaves, not roots. It's the only species of nematode that works in this fashion. Very strange to say the least. Counter intuitive. This may mean that foliar sprays may work better than drenching.
Here is link posted earlier. Someone may want to try a test with this chemical using foliar. Note: it should not be mixed with other pesticides.
http://www.ces.uoguelph.ca/water/PATHOGEN/PeroxyaceticAcid.pdf
Someone may want to do a similar test with formalin, but don't go over 1%.

http://utahpests.usu.edu/IPM/htm/field-crops/insects-and-diseases/alfalfa-stem-nematode

Alfalfa Stem Nematode (ASN) is a nearly microscopic round worm that enters the alfalfa plant and lives in the stems and leaves, usually above ground. Does that mean not 100%?
I do agree that they seem to do mostly as you thought.
-SamS

Chemical nematicides for controlling ASN are generally ineffective, hazardous, and expensive. Some insecticides are labeled for control of ASN, but studies have shown their efficacy is marginal under ideal conditions at their labeled rates for nematode control. The decision to turn under a field should be based on plant stand and current forage yields rather than nematode population numbers. A comprehensive integrated approach is the best strategy for controlling ASN. Following are recommendations that, if implemented, will reduce the impact of ASN on alfalfa production.

Prevent nematode reintroduction into a clean field by taking these precautions: cut new clean fields first, be sure the topsoil is dry, do not cut the alfalfa when the top 2-3 inches of soil surface is wet as nematodes will exit the plants and return to the soil once they sense the plant is dying; clean equipment before moving from one field to another; avoid using tail water from a known ASN contaminated field; avoid the temptation to plant “brown bag” seed with claims of pedigree purity and resistance to ASN; avoid the use of manure from cattle operations, where infected hay is used as feed, to spread on rotation crops or new alfalfa plantings as a fertilizer. These recommended “ounces of prevention” are potentially worth tons of forage.

-SamS

 

[xxxstr8edgexxx]

well folks im embarrassed to admit i spent more time doing the test than i did reading red lasers post. i did all that thinking he was posting an ipm for nematodes. it was for Tarsonemid mites.
i should just move my posts to the bm thread. it would be really useful there. things are settling down for me and ill be back in the saddle and more focused in the coming days.
if though this will do it for the todes thatd be great but the seed chart that i posted
(i know, i know) for seed treatments indicates that temps closer to 115 to kill them in 30 minutes.
but lower temps like 111 will kill them according to chart at the 2.5 hour mark and 114 at the 1 hour mark.
still more to do ill run these tomorrow. sorry for the jackass move not reading thread. hahah i warned you.
i need sleep.

 

[xxxstr8edgexxx]

if they can tolerate it for thirty at 110.5 ill see if they can tolerate it for 2.5 hours tomorrow.
113 at 2.5 hours should do it. so ill see if thats an option for cannabis that i grow.

 

[mojave green]

regarding stem todes

regarding stem todes

try this:
clone em
run em in hydro with clay pebbles or perlite (no coco as it may harbor the pests) and let em suck on sum dm zone, chlorine or chloramine.

 

[amannamedtruth]

I had a buddy who ran most of his tables in just perlite....he was also the one to give me the todes through one of his clones, so not too sure that clay or perlite will reduce numbers...

 

[Loc Dog]

Here are some great links to collection of nematodes for microscopic identification. Some are state agencies/universities, which may work with 215 growers.

http://plpnemweb.ucdavis.edu/nemaplex/Methods/extrmeth.htm

http://www.cdfa.ca.gov/plant/PPD/nematode_extraction.html

I plan on using hash screens, that are 47 micron, to filter hydro solution each change, just to be sure.

Will try both methods. Extraction from medium (water, coco, soil, etc.) and from stalks and stems.

If I find more, will edit and post here.

 

[RetroGrow]

http://utahpests.usu.edu/IPM/htm/field-crops/insects-and-diseases/alfalfa-stem-nematode

Alfalfa Stem Nematode (ASN) is a nearly microscopic round worm that enters the alfalfa plant and lives in the stems and leaves, usually above ground. Does that mean not 100%?
I do agree that they seem to do mostly as you thought.
-SamS

Chemical nematicides for controlling ASN are generally ineffective, hazardous, and expensive. Some insecticides are labeled for control of ASN, but studies have shown their efficacy is marginal under ideal conditions at their labeled rates for nematode control. The decision to turn under a field should be based on plant stand and current forage yields rather than nematode population numbers. A comprehensive integrated approach is the best strategy for controlling ASN. Following are recommendations that, if implemented, will reduce the impact of ASN on alfalfa production.

Prevent nematode reintroduction into a clean field by taking these precautions: cut new clean fields first, be sure the topsoil is dry, do not cut the alfalfa when the top 2-3 inches of soil surface is wet as nematodes will exit the plants and return to the soil once they sense the plant is dying; clean equipment before moving from one field to another; avoid using tail water from a known ASN contaminated field; avoid the temptation to plant “brown bag” seed with claims of pedigree purity and resistance to ASN; avoid the use of manure from cattle operations, where infected hay is used as feed, to spread on rotation crops or new alfalfa plantings as a fertilizer. These recommended “ounces of prevention” are potentially worth tons of forage.

-SamS

For sure, these are one very strange and unique type of pest. They can dry out and survive for years in a dessicated state, they can survive freezing and come back to life when temperatures warm up. They are resistant to just about any pesticides. Everything about them is counter intuitive. They enter through stomata rather than roots. Some of the information posted may just be dated, being only 6 years old, but it does say at that link that:

"ASN (Alfalfa Stem Nematode) can parasitize and persist on a number of host plant species, but can only reproduce in alfalfa and sainfoin. This is bizarre, for if they can only reproduce in alfalfa, how do they persist in cannabis and other species? Just by the dessicated spores coming back to life in the presence of water? Seems there would have to be alfalfa nearby. And why is this just happening now, when it was not problem previously? I know the trading of clones. etc, but it seems if they can't reproduce in cannabis, they would eventually fade away. Perhaps they can reproduce in cannabis and posted information about them is not accurate?
I would still like to see somebody try foliar application of formalin or peracetic/peroxyacetic acid. It seems reasonable that this may have an effect, hitting them where they live, rather than drenching. Just an idea I am throwing out there. Hope someone who has them can test. These take years of treatments on farms with alfalfa, nut trees, etc., just to reduce populations. Doesn't seem like there is a quick kill for them. Hundreds of millions years of evolution produces some strange creatures, and this is certainly one of them.

 

[Elmer Bud]

G`day Retro

I `m wondering ...
Is alfalfa used in nutes other than Triacontanol ? A tea perhaps ?
Or is there some where an interaction or proximity for alfalfa could pass the todes or their eggs to mediums or nutes or even clones ?

Thanks for sharin

EB .

 

[high life 45]

Perhaps a foliar applications of predatory nematodes would work?

Dunk clones in a predatode solution? Would preda todes be able to enter through the stomata?

Where's microbe man @?

If they can survive drying out and freezing, are folks going to start putting equipment in a vacuum chamber to kill the todesss between rounds? Or canthey sruvive a vacuum also?

 

[RetroGrow]

G`day Retro

I `m wondering ...
Is alfalfa used in nutes other than Triacontanol ? A tea perhaps ?
Or is there some where an interaction or proximity for alfalfa could pass the todes or their eggs to mediums or nutes or even clones ?

Thanks for sharin

EB .

Good point. Some people use alfalfa in their mix, and some make teas with it, and some use it to make their own triacontanol. This could explain the "sudden" appearance of the outbreak.Triacontanol has been popular only in recent years. I use it myself in the form of Canna Boost. There are plenty of people here who use alfalfa in their mix to get natural tria, and that could be the source of the problem. Then it spreads through cuts to people who don't use it and have no idea that alfalfa was used somewhere along the line. I would not use alfalfa after learning about these things. That's a reasonable explanation.
K+....

 

[xxxstr8edgexxx]

get a damn steam cleaner and put your pots on riser or grate or inverted planter plate tray thingy. heat treat those in between with hot ass water. i turn my water heater up to "hot as fuck" and put equipment in bins for a soak with scalding tap water. stacks of pots trays etc 10-15 mins at 140 aint no tode or anything else gonna survive.
steam clean the hydro tables and pondliner floors or just mop with very fucking hot water. im guessing this would be good. for general housekeeping. its good practice anyway.

 

[RetroGrow]

Perhaps a foliar applications of predatory nematodes would work?

Dunk clones in a predatode solution? Would preda todes be able to enter through the stomata?

Where's microbe man @?

If they can survive drying out and freezing, are folks going to start putting equipment in a vacuum chamber to kill the todesss between rounds? Or canthey sruvive a vacuum also?

I think the predatory nematodes are larger,and they live in the soil. I believe Ditylenchus dipsaci are the only nematodes that enter through the stomata. Predatory nematodes do their work in the soil/roots, where they are known to eat root aphids, and lots of other soil borne pests. Whether or not this would work, I doubt but really don't know for sure. Someone can try it.
Here's a link:
http://www.naturescontrol.com/predatornematodes.html

I am betting though, that alfalfa in people's mixes are the cause of this outbreak. Makes sense if you think about it. That's where they reproduce. If you Google "alfalfa, triacontanol", you will see that many growers are using alfalfa to give their plants triacontanol, not realizing that they may be spreading this pathogen that seemingly has no cure. I would stop with the alfalfa and put the word out. The more I think about it, the more questions it answers. Alfalfa could be the "Trojan Horse" for these bastards.

 

[Elmer Bud]

G`day Retro

The reproduce only in alfalfa was what got me thinkin .
I`m not ready to do a Stormy and say that`s 10 000 % it . But it is worth consideration . Alfalfa = stem nematode . Triacontinol and some teas use it . I`m not sure how its processed . So I don`t know if they would be killed in the process . But that`s where I`d do some investigation . Alfalfa products . Seems to make sense ?

Thanks for sharin

EB .

 

[Storm Shadow]

Triacontanol has nothing to do with this problem... Ive been using the stuff way before these guys hit the scene... come on now

Just look at these forums on how much in detail Spurr and myself blew that topic of Triacontanol up...

More like People growing outdoors getting infected around the 2009 outbreak of the Stem Nematode... Progressive Option gets dirty cuts... and passes them out...Shit started in Cali.... right when the ASN had its major coming out party.... makes perfect sense...helps to live in Cali and have actually had this problem....

If these guys enter through the stomata... then this is awesome... I'll have these bastards killed in no time... I can already tell major improvements in my genetics from the last couple weeks of intense IPM...

http://www.kellysolutions.com/erenewals/documentsubmit/KellyData%5CAK%5Cpesticide%5CProduct%20Label%5C49538%5C49538-4%5C49538-4_Xeroton_3_10_7_2010_6_19_35_PM.pdf

Ive been fogging everything with the stuff....dip unrooted clones in it also...just kind of expensive....but its legit

 

[Storm Shadow]

http://canadianstpress.com/ojs/index.php/CJPP/article/view/91

Nematicidal performance of two agrochemicals and Spinosad on the root-knot nematode population

Abstract
A pot experiment was conducted to evaluate the nematicidal performance of Spinosad as a promising nematicide against the root-knot nematode Meloidogyne incognita (White & Kofoide) Chitwood, on tomato plants. Meanwhile, no reports mentioned that Spinosad could be used as a nematicide. The results showed that oxamyl and fosthiazate recorded the highest reduction in nematode population by consecutive reductions 91.20 & 76.63%. Moreover, Spinosad 0.5% & 0.1% recorded 70.90 and 62.51% population, respectively. All treatments not only recorded increasing in plant shoot system , but also increased the root system except for oxamyl and spinosad 0.1% which reduced root weight by 7.28 and 20.69%, respectively.

Ive mentioned it before...But I did a 24k grow of all Tahoe OG from P.O and not one cut...not one...went DUD.. all I did was use Spinosad and Triple Action Neem Oil... I might have used Pylon once.... but I don't think so...

 

[whadeezlrg]

I have first hand experience of dudds back in 06-07 on strains that didn't come from PO...po may have accelerated the spread but they aren't responsible for the problem imho.

I think the above reference to triacontanol is referring to the use of alfalfa meal as part of a compost tea/soil mix...where there is a presence of alfalfa tissues that may or may not be carrying nematodes. I can agree that concentrated triacontanol (ie: canna boost, Yellow bottle final, etc) more than likely doesn't play a part in nematode infections, I would think they are eliminated during the extraction process.

I've always loved spinosad, such a versatile pesticide.