Argh, What are we doing wrong?

[BigJohnny]

We seem to be able to produce two things now, a dark colored, slightly lighter than a beer bottle, hard shatter (could be harder though) OR a golden colored patty that isn't hard and is just a touch sticky at room temp.


We've tried oven temps from 90-110F with much this same result, and our initial boil off of butane after blasting is done in a sand bath with the sand at about >110F, then we pull the oil off when it's between 80-90F. It's usually quite thick at that point.

We then put it in the oven at 90F for 30 mins. After 30 mins we pull a vac and let it sit under vac for a few hours until it's relatively flat, flip it and put it back in the oven at the same temp not under vac.

That's how we're getting golden, but not hard "shatter" currently.

How do we get a nice golden, rock hard shatter?

 

[Gray Wolf]

Colors are strain dependent.

If you will raise the temperature to ~115F, it will purge faster and retain more carboxylic acid.

 

[BigJohnny]

What would be the indication that it's actually done? or roughy how long is a purge done for?

I've gone through tutorials, but none of them give a quick step by step breakdown of the process so-to-speak, and I think some of our problem has been over purging. In some cases the patties have been left in the oven for days under vacuum and after like 4 days there would still be tons of tiny tiny bubbles still not popped.

The process will change soon though, we're just waiting on some hoses and pump that's on backorder to get out Mk4 up and running.

I'll post a few pics in a bit.

 

[BigJohnny]

Also, we have some stuff that is a nice golden color but it isn't hard, is there a way I can get it to harden up at this point?

We've been running this same material for a bit (we have like 20Lbs of it) and our results are not consistent.

some of the stuff I have in the ovens now WAS golden in the start but it has darkened up and it's only been in the oven since about 3:30pm yesterday. however it seems to be harder....

 

[BigJohnny]

Pics.

This is a batch that was made Sunday and "finished" Monday.
The colour is nice, but it's a bit sticky to the touch and does not shatter.

I've put this back in the oven under vacuum @ 115F

 

[BigJohnny]

This is a batch I made yesterday and purged at 90F. It was in the oven for 1 hour before I vac'd it and I left it under vac for 4 hours I think. Then I flipped it and left it in the oven at 100F with no vacuum.

It gave it the spiderweb effect pretty quickly, but back under vac today and you can see there are still a shit ton of tiny bubbles forming. Is that butane or am I boiling off other substances at this point?

 

[A6 Grower]

when you flip you add air bubbles under the slap, so thats where some of your bubbles are coming from. To really narrow your problems send a sample of the trim in for testing(moisture and thc levels) i bet the trim is old and is partially activated, active thc is liquidy at room temp. Or your butane isnt cold enough? You open blasting? Is the weather inconsistent? Very humid out? with the large amount im assumeing outdoor from last year or maybe light depos greenhouses? Outdoor has more waxs usually, and usually has neem and shit sprayed all over depending on the grower. If your open blasting try freezing your butane and tube overnight, this always helped with color for me.

 

[BigJohnny]

This stuff was all grabbed like a week ago.

Its really good shake that is sieved off just before the bud is packaged. It's been drying in our house on the floor in a bedroom. The temp of the house is always 20-22C. After it's dried on the floor we bag it up and put it in the freezer.... not sure of freezer temps atm.

Butane is also extremely cold as we keep stocking our freezer.

I can tell you though, we have a continuous and unending supply of everything from this top notch shake/popcorn buds, to straight up buds. We just aren't going to run buds until we get this process sorted.

I'm running a batch now, it's currently in a sand bath with the sand at 130F. I might turn it down a bit though but it stops reacting when the butane gets low.

 

[soysoz]

We seem to be able to produce two things now, a dark colored, slightly lighter than a beer bottle, hard shatter (could be harder though) OR a golden colored patty that isn't hard and is just a touch sticky at room temp.


We've tried oven temps from 90-110F with much this same result, and our initial boil off of butane after blasting is done in a sand bath with the sand at about >110F, then we pull the oil off when it's between 80-90F. It's usually quite thick at that point.

We then put it in the oven at 90F for 30 mins. After 30 mins we pull a vac and let it sit under vac for a few hours until it's relatively flat, flip it and put it back in the oven at the same temp not under vac.

That's how we're getting golden, but not hard "shatter" currently.

How do we get a nice golden, rock hard shatter?

Literally what Gray_Wolf said. By keeping your temps "low and slow" you're giving your product more time to degrade by forcing your solvent to deal with high viscosity. Raise your temp to one at which the bubbles break free more easily, and you should be able to cut purge times down, decarboxylate less, and achieve more stable shatter.

 

[BigJohnny]

How long should I purge at 115F for?

 

[soysoz]

Until the solvent bubbles cease to show themselves. That's kinda the point of getting your temps to 115, is that when you don't see the solvent anymore, you know it's gone because it's hot and liquid enough that it would be boiling off if there were any left. Purging at lower temps means you can't actually know when you're done because the solvent bubbles can't readily escape. That leads to people to fall under the misconception that they have to purge for a day, or even days.

 

[BigJohnny]

I ended up putting it in the oven around 2pm. I wasnt able to start vac'ing it until 3, and the vac is currently still running, but my god it looks pretty good right about now. There arent many bubbles left I don't think. So I think I'll run the vac for probably an hour maybe 2 and see what transpires.

 

[flatslabs]

Maybe I misread, but are you using a normal oven and then taking it off the heat when you apply vacuum?

If the above is true, are these temperatures you are listing your oven set temperatures or surface temperatures of your concentrate. A conventional home oven is going to have temperature differentials inside and your surface temperature is what you need to worry about.

 

[BigJohnny]

Sorry, I thought I specified but obviously I didn't lol.

We are using 1.9 CuFt AI vac ovens. The temp on the oven is the air temp, or the set temp on the oven. I honestly haven't checked the surface of the patties at all.


So when the reaction stops, do I flip the slab or is it done at that point??

 

[flatslabs]

While I don't have an AI vac oven, I do have quite a bit of experience with installing and maintaining PID controllers for various industrial gear.

Depending on the factory PID settings, there is always going to be a bit of fluctuation in the temperature regardless of how it is configured as the temperature being reported back to the PID controller is coming from wherever the thermocouple in that oven is located (IE: not the surface temp of your slabs).

I have read of people using stone slabs as shelves to even out the hot spots rather than the provided wire racks, but I would definitely get a cheap infrared thermometer so you can spot check your surface temps to see if thats where your issue is and correct your set temperature accordingly

 

[BigJohnny]

Oh, I'm aware of all that stuff, I'm an Electromechanical Engineer by trade, and we do have an IR thermometer, I just haven't checked the temp of the slab itself for whatever lazy reason..... I guess I'll have to start.

 

[soysoz]

Sorry, I thought I specified but obviously I didn't lol.

We are using 1.9 CuFt AI vac ovens. The temp on the oven is the air temp, or the set temp on the oven. I honestly haven't checked the surface of the patties at all.


So when the reaction stops, do I flip the slab or is it done at that point??

No need if its a thin film. If not you may have to.

 

[BigJohnny]

well it isn't a really thin film, so I should probably flip it I guess.

Here's my questions,

at what point should it be flipped, like after how many hours roughly? obviously after the reaction is done, but should it be flipped immediately when it stops or stay in for X hours and then flipped?

roughly how long should it bake for? Right now it's been in the oven for about 9 hours and has not had the vac let off.

After the sand bath I put it in the oven waited 30 mins, then vac'd for 2 hours, shut off the pump and it has been sitting in that vacuum since 2pm this afternoon. There are no bubbles at all and it looks really nice.

When I flip, should I allow it to cool before flipping it? and then should I run the vac for another 2 hours after I put it back flipped?

I'm probably going to go flip it in the next couple of minutes and pull a vac for another 2 hours.

 

[soysoz]

well it isn't a really thin film, so I should probably flip it I guess.

Here's my questions,

at what point should it be flipped, like after how many hours roughly? obviously after the reaction is done, but should it be flipped immediately when it stops or stay in for X hours and then flipped?

Probably immediately after the reaction stops taking place, if you want to retain as much THC in its acid form as possible.

roughly how long should it bake for? Right now it's been in the oven for about 9 hours and has not had the vac let off.

Until the reaction stops.

After the sand bath I put it in the oven waited 30 mins, then vac'd for 2 hours, shut off the pump and it has been sitting in that vacuum since 2pm this afternoon. There are no bubbles at all and it looks really nice.

When I flip, should I allow it to cool before flipping it? and then should I run the vac for another 2 hours after I put it back flipped?

You could, it might help you transfer it from sheet to sheet. I would say that once the temp/pressure is stable if you don't see any more reactions taking place then it should be done.

I'm probably going to go flip it in the next couple of minutes and pull a vac for another 2 hours.

In blue.

 

[BigJohnny]

ok, so I make sure I understand this.

after sand bath, put into oven for 30 mins.

after 30 mins, hit vac, vac for minimum 2 hours (<-- my own number, really)

cut vac, and leave in oven until reaction stops. once reaction stops....flip??

if no reaction after flip....done??

as it stands right now I don't think what I have in the oven that I've been tracking through this thread is done. I'm not sure it would be hard.