Chelates for trace minerals?

[rasputin]

Obvious ROLS trolls are obvious. Yawn.

Seeing as how none of you ever had the good sense or the balls to call out your dear leader on his clear agenda now is not the time to start acting as if you do. I think it's high irony that you would come at m astera or anyone else in this thread, all things considered.

Seems more like petty lashing out at things you do not understand. Adjust accordingly. You'll be fine.

I certainly think some of this stuff is up for debate but in case anyone is wondering, you don't begin a debate by accusing someone of "hawking" wares (an interesting claim considering it didn't happen and was just mindlessly repeated by multiple people in order to shut down debate) or that they are somehow full of shit because their info doesn't align exactly with your own.

That's pretty much the exact way to stifle debate so maybe some of you should ask yourselves what your real intent is posting in this thread. Learning & growing or protecting your fragile ego? Get some Zazen in your life and no, I ain't talking about some weed seeds. The real Zazen.

 

[Scrappy4]

Boy oh boy there sure are some sore butts around here lately. Between harvest? Mites?

 

[Stayfoolish]

I really think the only way to advance is by lively active debate. I love being proved wrong and learning something new. I hate when information is swept away or deleted due to confronting views. True tragedy for humanity. Let's get back on track and talk about all this new info I haven't heard of. Is there a way to add these organic chemicals in without truly measuring. I always add amendments like a 80 year old grandmother. A pinch here, a handful there. It seems to me that once you start dealing with these exact chems things could go wrong quick, or off balance. I guess a soil test is all I could do, I haven't don't one yet just kind of winging it. It may take another harvest before I have the money to actually get into this, but it seems like this is the most surefire way to grow the best everything, and specifically tailor your soil perfectly. Much appreciated everyone, really dig all this. I just got the intelligent gardener last week so it's great this thread pops up.

 

[Stayfoolish]

Damn scrappy. When I started reading here I would always remember some of your posts. Maybe just stop all of the BS on both ends. Let's just keep it on topic and stop the hate. This is one community, with one plant we all love. Let's keep it cool. No need to continue on.

 

[BurnOne]

I used to work with a guy named Al. One of the smartest guys I ever knew and I've known about three. I don't mean IQ or education either. I remember when people would show him a manual or a book (nothing concerning growing) as proof of their debate. Old Al would say "How do you know the guy who wrote that book knows what the hell he's talking about?"
By the way, two of those three guys looked dumb as hell.
Just something to think about.
Burn1

 

[Dkgrower]

Guys i was an ass and should be smarter than write an very uninformative post jugding others sorry for the disturbance i made.

 

[Stayfoolish]

Man's a pimp right there. Takes a lot to apologize. Much respect

Back on topic, Reading a few other books and articles right now. mr Astera name keeps popping up. Man seems to be onto something. Not enough time in the day to read and work. FML.

It's beautiful seeing the interwoven connectivity of minerals and health and plant production. Reading the patterns of soil ebb and flow. Love it.

 

[milkyjoe]

Thinking about it maybe there is one more side of my k story. My hanna soil activity meter only measured 0.3. Perhaps what I lacked was enough of everything. Had I been up around 0.6 maybe I would have been good.

Perhaps that is the next path to follow. Add enough balanced amendments to get that to 0.6...or use enough soil that it don't matter

 

[Cep]

or use enough soil that it don't matter

This is the only way to go for me in the future outdoors. It just too difficult to try and keep the balance when I can't tell what being withdrawn by the plant or in what amount. As fast as the new products are making the plants grow I feel like I need 5 yards to pull it off or just start later. I could have planted June 20th and been happy.

Indoors its the same deal. I went with a lighter mix that was pretty well balanced, but didn't have enough N. Then, of course, I started foliar photomag and everything else and they turned into pigs. When I got back into town from being away for a week my trial plants were on day 25. I snapped a pic today of a "cinex" treatment plant (28 days after the flip):

Deficient in maybe everything. If I was around to feed them enough food then maybe I would be seeing the type of results you talked about but they hit a wall and started maturing really quick.

 

[milkyjoe]

Exactly...just like the nitrous bottle. You better have enough bottom end under it or shit is fixin to break

 

[Pangea]

How much longer are you going to let your control plant go for?

My biggest issue is running out of juice or not using enough soil vs plant size and life span, as well as the opposite, starting new plants in to strong of mix. Trial and error.
It'd be nice to pull a pound outta 25 gallons rather than 50!

 

[Cep]

Edit: it's in the experimental group. The controls are greener and haven't filled out as much, but they still look like they are maturing faster than usual. I've never run cinex before, maybe its just super fast. I'm starting to think the mist from my foliars got on all the plants. I'd like to snap side by side shots at the end but I'll probably chop next week?

They are in 4 gallons of soil but look like they're only putting out 2 oz each. I need to set up a better experiment.

 

[FatherEarth]

How much longer are you going to let your control plant go for?

My biggest issue is running out of juice or not using enough soil vs plant size and life span, as well as the opposite, starting new plants in to strong of mix. Trial and error.
It'd be nice to pull a pound outta 25 gallons rather than 50!

I thought the idea was to use a variety of inputs that become available at different rates so that when you need it , its available at the right time. You can load all your amendments in from the start without starting in too strong of a mix. Now if you dont use the soil in the right time frame its obviously going to be too hot..

I thought we were after root dominance? Using just enough soil will land you in trouble every time. I was under the impression that the winning formula was to figure how much soil you think you need and multiply it x3 FTW... that is if you amended properly...


Im loving this thread...
Thanks for all the great info,


FE

 

[Dreambig]

Hi Dreambig- I'm used to the antipathy. Funny it is the same from industrial/chemical growers and organic growers. Facts don't matter or what? FWIW, I have been an organic grower since the 1970s and am a partner in a certified organic farm in Louisiana, USA. I've also been writing soil Rx's for organic growers for ten years. I must be doing something right.

Re your soil report: This is a perfect setup for KMag, aka SulPoMag. Add 50 lbs per 1000 sq feet, and stand back!

The soil is very low in Copper and Manganese, so 1 lb of Copper sulfate 25%Cu and 3 lbs of Manganese sulfate 32%Mn would be good, along with 2 lbs of sea salt. Again, per 1000 square feet. The sulfates will do a lot.

I try to stay away from N recommendations, because the grower can usually tell better than me when N is needed. With your high organic matter you might not need any N to grow a good crop, but adding the equivalent of 100 lbs/acre is a general guideline.

Thanks Michael, I went ahead and added the sulpomag, today I was gonna add the copper and manganese sulfates and sea salt, but I had a quick question for you or anybody else that can answer. How do you recommend applying these minerals? Really my only option is sprinkle them on top of my soil and water them in since i have plants growing right now. With the sea salt I see how people dissolve it in warm water first the do a soil drench. Will these minerals do anything if I spread them on top and water in including sea salt?

 

[Pangea]

You're right, the idea is trying to have the plant get what it wants when it wants it.

If one can build a soil that can provide a pound in 25 gallon with 25 pounds of amendments and minerals I'd rather do that than 40-50 gallons with 25 pounds of amendments, the peat/perlite is more expensive than the minerals. I don't think it will land you in trouble everytime, if you have your soil balanced and loaded to the max with a strong food web your "battery" can be small but pack a powerful long lasting punch.

Many paths to victory, trying to increase efficiency and lower costs while maintaining and raising quality is what I'm digging at atm.

 

[EclipseFour20]

...My biggest issue is running out of juice or not using enough soil vs plant size and life span, as well as the opposite, starting new plants in to strong of mix. Trial and error.
It'd be nice to pull a pound outta 25 gallons rather than 50!

I thought the idea was to use a variety of inputs that become available at different rates so that when you need it , its available at the right time. You can load all your amendments in from the start without starting in too strong of a mix. Now if you dont use the soil in the right time frame its obviously going to be too hot..
...

You're right, the idea is trying to have the plant get what it wants when it wants it.

If one can build a soil that can provide a pound in 25 gallon with 25 pounds of amendments and minerals I'd rather do that than 40-50 gallons with 25 pounds of amendments, the peat/perlite is more expensive than the minerals....
....trying to increase efficiency and lower costs while maintaining and raising quality is what I'm digging at atm.

May I suggest investigating the breakdown or decomposition rates of the organic input you are examining. Not all organic inputs are equal but most will break down/fully decompose over time...some 28 days--others 70 days or so...few may go longer, but not many.

There are regression analysis models that can help predict Plant Available Nitrogen (PAN) and it seems that most organic specialty products with greater than 6% total N release over 60% of PAN in 28 days, and between 75-100% in 70 days. Which means, after 70 days from transplant almost all of the organic inputs are fully decomposed (no mas).

See the problem?...if you veg for 30 days then mathematically at least 60% of the organic inputs are consumed before the plant even goes to flower. Perhaps...instead of adding more organic inputs at the beginning...maybe augmenting a little more along the way might be a better alternative (top dressing, teas, water solubles, etc).

Do read this report, especially Table 1--as it contains 7 and 28 day decomposition rates as well as and 28 day PAN data for many organic inputs...very interesting about Kelp Meal.

Source: smallfarms.oregonstate.edu/sites/default/files/Sullivan_et_al_2010_World_Congress_Soil_Science.pdf


"We lacked data on higher N analysis specialty products available for use in USDA Certified Organic
production. To gain additional data on high N specialty products, we performed a 28-d laboratory incubation
using fertilizers offered for sale to organic farmers in Portland, Oregon including: seed meals, fish
byproducts, and animal byproducts (Table 1). Most of the specialty products decomposed rapidly. Most
specialty products with greater than 6% total N released 60+% PAN in 28 d. Decomposition (%) for
specialty products with 6+% total N was similar to PAN (%). Plant-available N (%) was similar for most
fertilizers with total N percentage > 6%. Experimental data for PAN release from high N concentration
organic fertilizers (>6% total N) typically ranged from 60 to near 100% (Figure 2 and unpublished data).
Therefore, the Calculator estimate of 75% PAN for 70 d after application is on the conservative side."

Site for calculator (excel version) http://smallfarms.oregonstate.edu/calculator

 

[Pangea]

Good link, not so good for myself as I don't utilize fresh organic materials but stable compost composed primarily of alfalfa meal, peat moss, and raw minerals.

Ive always been curious of the break down rates on fresh materials, I assumed it was a little slower, interesting and good resource!

 

[milkyjoe]

Or just fertigate ammonium sulfate on a weekly basis.

 

[Pangea]

To each his own, but Ill stick to a high humus phospho-compost, with all the bonus goodies in the alfalfa.

Why not fertigate K on a weekly basis as well?

 

[EclipseFour20]

Good link, not so good for myself as I don't utilize fresh organic materials but stable compost composed primarily of alfalfa meal, peat moss, and raw minerals.

Ive always been curious of the break down rates on fresh materials, I assumed it was a little slower, interesting and good resource!

I bet your alfalfa meal numbers were confirmed/reinforced. IMHO, if alfalfa meal decomposes 48% on day 28....then I guestimate on day 70 not more than 80%--leaving a residual/"left-over" on harvest day in the 10-20% range (helpful tidbit for those that recycle/reuse grow medium/soil).

Hmmm....very interesting that bone meal decomposes faster than alfalfa meal at day 28--53% vs 48%, while blood meal is slightly faster at 57%...who would have guessed that? Not me. Gonna check out "soybean meal" 68% PAN and 69% decomposed on day 28.

BTW...the consensus of many organic pros is, in the field--about 60% of Alfalfa Meal will decompose then mineralize during the 1st year, about 20-30% during the 2nd year, and remainder in the 3rd year. Fast decomposer...but expect a residual.