Most basic breeding question

[Kindest]

I took a male BOG sour LSD and pollinated a female of the same. Obviously I got seeds.

These are called F2s, right?

Have I increased or decreased the variation in potential offspring?

What is the natural next step for continuing the line via seed? I would be making F3s, and with more or less variation?

Lots of complex genetic info and details on crossing lines out there, but I just can't find these most simple answers.

 

[stoned-trout]

I would start with open pollination if you didn't have large numbers to start and choose from...

 

[Kindest]

Thanks, I see what you're saying.

What I'm more curious about is what to expect from the 'F2' seeds I made. Is it just a coincidence that I seem to have six identical plants right now? You're saying in a big bag of F2s there should be many phenotypes, yes?

 

[stoney917]

Well it's different depending on what ur workin with... Not really coincidence Bogs gear is worked so that it is uniform.. If u want more variety look for oddball phenos and use them... Yes hidden expressions can be found but shouldn't be common... Don't have time to break it all down for ya but in general u technically makin f2s but take into consideration and work bog already put in

 

[sensibuds]

This is a gem.


Well defining the terms P1, F1, F2, homozygous, and heterogygous can be a simple task, however, applying them to applied genetics can often create confusion. Depending on your point of reference, a plant could be described as any of these terms. For our specific field of interest it's important to further define these terms to reduce confusion and protect the consumers. First I'll provide the classic scientific definition of these and other related terms and then I'll dive into each term into detail.

Heterzygous - a condition when two genes for a trait are not the same on each member of a pair of homologous chromosomes; individuals heterozygous for a trait are indicated by an "Aa" or "aA" notation and are not true breeding for that trait.(Clarke)

Homozygous - the condition existing when the genes for a trait are the same on both chromosomes of a homologous pair; individuals homozygous for a trait are indicated by "AA" or "aa" and are true breeding for that trait. (Clarke)

- Now the heterozygous and homozygous terms can be applied to one trait or a group of traits within an individual or a group of individuals. Depending on your point of reference, an individual or group can be
considered both homozygous or heterozygous. For instance, say you have two individuals that are both short (S) and have webbed leaves (W) and have the following genotypes.

#1 = SSWW
#2 = SSWw

They are both homozygous for the short trait but only individual #1 is homozygous for the webbed leaf trait. Individual #2 is heterozygous for the webbed leaf trait and would be considered a heterozygous individual. As a goup, they would be considered heterozygous in general by some and homozygous by others. It would depend on your point of reference and the overall importance you place on the webbed leaf trait. Most would consider it to be heterozygous.

For example, the blueberry cannabis strain is considered a true breeding homozygous seed line because as a whole the many offspring have a similar look and produce a similar product. However there are often subtle differences between the plants of characters such as stem colour and potency. When taking a close look at blueberry, you will find heterozygous traits, but because of the whole overall look, we still generally consider them homozygous for the purpose of breeding programs. Using dogs is another way to explain this, take a dobie for example, you cant tell the difference between dobies, but you can tell a dobie from another breed. Ya follow?

Hybrid - An individual produced by crossing two parents of different genotypes. Clarke says that a hybrid is a heterozygous individual resulting from crossing two seperate strains.

- For the purpose of seedbanks, a hybrid is in general, a cross between any two unrelated seedlines. ANY HYBRID IS heterozygous and NOT TRUE BREEDING.

F1 hybrid - is the first generation of a cross between any two unrelated seedlines in the creation of a hybrid. F1 hybrids can be uniform or variable depending on the P1 parent stock used.

F2 hybrid - is the offspring of a cross between two F1 plants (Clarke). What Clarke and other sources don't make clear is do the two F1's need to be from the same parents? By convention they don't. As well, german geneticists often describe a backcross of an F1 back to a P1 parent as a F2 cross.

- OK lets say we take blueberry and cross it with romulan (both relatively true breeding of their unique traits) to create the F1 hybrid romberry. Now lets cross the F1 romberry with a NL/Haze F1 hybrid. (Ed.note:The textbooks consider this a 'double cross'.)

Some could say this is a F1 cross of romberry and NL/Haze. Others could argue that it is a F2 cross of two F1 hybrids. Gets confusing doesn't it? Now lets cross this Romberry/NL/Haze(RNH) with a Skunk#1/NL#5 F1 hybrid to create RNHSN. Now some would argue that RNHSN is an F1 hybrid between RNH and SK/NL seedlines. Others would call it an F2.

- So what does this mean to the consumer? It means that a seed bank can call a cross whatever it wants until the industry adopts some standards. This is what this article will attempt to initiate. Clarke eludes to
standardising these definitions but never really gets around to it. Fortunately other plant breeding communities have (Colangelli, Grossnickle&Russell, Watts, &Wright) and adopting their standards
makes the most sense and offers the best protection to the seedbank consumer.

Watts defines an F1 as the heterozygous offspring between two homozygous but unrelated seedlines. This makes sense and gives the F1 generation a unique combination of traits; uniform phenotype but not true breeding. This is important in the plant breeding world. This means that when a customer buys F1 seeds that they should expect uniform results. It also means that the breeder's work is protected from being duplicated by any other means than using the original P1 (true breeding parents). [There are
exceptions to this by using techniques such as repeated backcrosses (cubing the clone).

F2 crosses are the offspring of crossing two F1 hybrids. This means that they will not be uniform nor will they breed true. However, F3, F4, F5, etc will also share these characteristics, so to simplify terminology for the seedbanks and seedbank merchants, they can all be classified as F2 seeds in general.

What does this mean for the preceeding example? Well, the blueberry, romulan, skunk#1, NL#5, and haze were all P1 true breeding seedlines or strains (another term that needs clarification). Romberry, NL/Haze, and SK/NL were all F1 hybrids. Both the Romberry/NL/Haze and the RNHSN would be F2s. Within each group the consumer can know what to expect for the price they are paying.

Few cannabis seedbanks (if any) and their breeders are following these definitions and are subsequently creating confusion within the cannabis seedbuying community. This is a change that needs to happen.

Note: this is a rough draft to be published to the internet. Hopefully in time it or something similar will be used to help establish an industry standard. Any comments and critism is welcome to aid in the production of the final draft. Small steps like this can only benefit the cannabis community over the long haul.

 

[RonSmooth]

Breeding involves a pretty in depth understanding of genetics.

The thread title would be better stated as :

"Most basic genetic question"

Here is a link to the basic principles of mendelian genetics.

http://anthro.palomar.edu/mendel/mendel_1.htm

I didn't mean for that to come off as rude if it did. Just into accuracy when it comes to stuff like this.

 

[Kindest]

It's all good.

I've read more of this literature than my question may indicate. I'm really just wanting to know what you call the seeds of a male and female from the same genotype. So much of the available info goes right into crossing unrelated seedlines.

Thanks for the responses!

 

[RonSmooth]

It's all good.

I've read more of this literature than my question may indicate. I'm really just wanting to know what you call the seeds of a male and female from the same genotype. So much of the available info goes right into crossing unrelated seedlines.

Thanks for the responses!

From what I understand, two plants with the same genotype would have to be cuttings from the same plant. You cant have different plants with the same genotype.


If genotype refers to a specific trait, each parent would have two alleles for a trait. They would either be the same (homozygous AA or BB) or different (heterozygous AB).

If you cross two plants with heterozygous alleles for purple leaves, the F1 offspring would all have purple leaves.

That might be the only trait they share. So you might reach your goal of a purple plant but the offspring may express a recessive gene for hermaphroditism.

Now you have to breed that trait "out" while keeping the genotype for leaf color.

Its been a while since high school so I am currently re-learning all this stuff.

 

[Cool Moe]

How much variation you'll get from your f2s depends on how much poly hybrid exists in the f1 parents combined with how much variation exists in the phenotypes you select for the f2 parents. BOG's sour lsd is a huge genetic mish mash and is all over the map in phenotype variation. Buy a pack and grow it and you'll find that nearly every plant is different from the other. The f1 phenotypes you choose and use to make your f2s will determine the amount of variation you can expect from them. For example if you find 2 opposite sex f1 phenotypes that both lean heavily towards sour bubble, the f2 progeny will lean heavily towards sour bubble. If the male f1 phenotype leans towards sour bubble and the f1 female leans towards jack's cleaner 2, expect much more variation in your f2s. So with a poly like sour lsd the possibilities for variation in the f2 generation are endless but are highly determined by the phenotype variation (or similarity) of the f1 parents you choose to breed.

 

[TickleMyBalls]

Your variation will depend on how stable the line is already you're using, and also how similar the characteristics of the two plants are. Crossing two very similar smelling and looking male and female plants will gives you less variation than crossing two plants that are characteristically dissimilar.

This is the art of selection. What makes a good breeder is more than just genetic seed stock and how stable the strains are, but also the ability to recognize something truly unique and special, and apply those special selections to a breeding program. This is what makes people like DJ Short an excellent breeder. He has managed to work small differences in his original parental stock into several lines of stable uniform plants.

 

[Kindest]

How much variation you'll get from your f2s depends on how much poly hybrid exists in the f1 parents combined with how much variation exists in the phenotypes you select for the f2 parents. BOG's sour lsd is a huge genetic mish mash and is all over the map in phenotype variation. Buy a pack and grow it and you'll find that nearly every plant is different from the other. The f1 phenotypes you choose and use to make your f2s will determine the amount of variation you can expect from them. For example if you find 2 opposite sex f1 phenotypes that both lean heavily towards sour bubble, the f2 progeny will lean heavily towards sour bubble. If the male f1 phenotype leans towards sour bubble and the f1 female leans towards jack's cleaner 2, expect much more variation in your f2s. So with a poly like sour lsd the possibilities for variation in the f2 generation are endless but are highly determined by the phenotype variation (or similarity) of the f1 parents you choose to breed.

Your variation will depend on how stable the line is already you're using, and also how similar the characteristics of the two plants are. Crossing two very similar smelling and looking male and female plants will gives you less variation than crossing two plants that are characteristically dissimilar.

This is the art of selection. What makes a good breeder is more than just genetic seed stock and how stable the strains are, but also the ability to recognize something truly unique and special, and apply those special selections to a breeding program. This is what makes people like DJ Short an excellent breeder. He has managed to work small differences in his original parental stock into several lines of stable uniform plants.

Thank you thank you thank you - was hoping to have this put in relative terms. Very helpful.