Strange deficiency in coco coir, frustrating and hopeless feeling

[paper thorn]

OK rob, you do have a calcium and a magnesium def. The chlorosis and spotting on the lower leaves is the mag being translocated to new growth.

Calcium can not be translocated from old growth because it is locked in cell walls. It manifests itself in the curling of the new growth. the edges of the new leaves get an insufficient amount of Ca and stop growing and the middle of the leaf continues to grow a bit causing the curl. it's not caused by too much N, though N helps the middle grow more and curl more.

Cal and mag get locked out at low pH. I would never run coco at 5.5 as some suggested. but you're at 6 to 6.3 so that's not it. I'd keep it from 5.8 to 6.2. Most likely you have an antagonism going because of all the junk in your nutes and whatever salts are getting past your ro filter.

I'd be concerned about whatever is getting by your ro filter and making your water start at 150. Me, i'd skip the ro water and skip the calmag, and just give basic nutes with a pk boost like koolbloom in flower.

edit- Sometimes you can get a buildup of nutes and salts in your coco and will drop the pH down in the rootzone locking out ca and mag. Can be fixed with a good flush with light nutes.

 

[Coconutz]

The RO membrane and sediment filters wont remove the chloramine, Its the carbon block that removes it.
Most carbon blocks will only remove a % of them.
Most RO/DI systems that handle chloramines have a separate carbon filter designed for chloramines.
Make sure your PSI is within range and keep your sediment filter clean to avoid letting your carbon block get fucked up. Replace your carbon block on schedule and it should remove most of it.
You should look at the specs of any that you plan to use if you care.
I dont think it maters and I even add back some bleach.
Peace

 

[stasis]

.

 

[RetroGrow]

I gave you the link to great whites resource

You gave me nothing. I already know what I'm doing. Unfortunately, you did mislead others who might be reading this. Hopefully they are intelligent enough not to listen to you.

 

[drgr33nuk]

The RO membrane and sediment filters wont remove the chloramine, Its the carbon block that removes it.
Most carbon blocks will only remove a % of them.
Most RO/DI systems that handle chloramines have a separate carbon filter designed for chloramines.
Make sure your PSI is within range and keep your sediment filter clean to avoid letting your carbon block get fucked up. Replace your carbon block on schedule and it should remove most of it.
You should look at the specs of any that you plan to use if you care.
I dont think it maters and I even add back some bleach.
Peace

I don't mean to offend you but you are wrong here buddy. Understanding the process will help you more.

Pre stage filtration

Stage 1 Sediment -- removal of particles above 5 micron
Stage 2 Carbon block 1 -- Removal of heavy metals & chlorine
Stage 3 Carbon block 2 -- >>READ HERE<< can be used without stage 2
Salt removal
Stage 4 Membrane -- Removal of salts etc above 0.0005 micron
Water should be 0.0 or very close now !
Stage 5 (optional) DI -- picks up stray ions
Water should read 0.0 !!

I drink the stuff two so I also have a re-mineralization filter on my sink faucet & pure water is routed to my plants storage tank (Not setup as yet.)

My advice would be to replace every filter and make sure you backflush your system once every two weeks. To do this you have to either remove the flow restriction off the waste and run for around 1 min or I have a flow restrictor with a backflush tap so I can just flip a switch and wait a min. They are cheap on ebay but MAKE SURE IT MATCHES THE GPD OF YOUR RO MACHINE !!!! or you will fuck your filters super fast

I've included a couple of picts of mine half setup ATM cause we set to move house in a couple of months.

PS: anyone thats been told not to use RO water with coco I disagree. I use RO water and bring the background EC up to 0.3 with a Mg/Ca supplement with no issues. I use the Ca/Mg because I use Canna coco and it has been based around soft water (background EC of 0.4) I've also included a leaf shot a couple of my plants. No Mg/Ca def what so ever Just a pesky caterpillar eating one of the leaves !!

The staining is a foliar applied product I use.

Also mycorrhizae is a fungi not a bacteria. Great white is mycorrhizae completely different to beneficial bacterias. Mycorrhizae works in lamens terms by attaching itself to the root of the plant and forms a symbiotic relationship in turn increases the root size and nutrient / water uptake. Remember before anyone starts picking holes in my statement this is a SIMPLE explanation so most can visualize in their heads whats going on They also break down compounds and help the plant feed.

Beneficial bacterias also aid the plant and some also by symbiosis but are not the same. It's easy to confuse the two products because of the similar product description.

I have experimented with both using very hard tapwater full of Chlorine & Chloramine & the plants do still seem to benefit. It would seem in my little trial that the mycorrhizae & bacteria survived.

But again I've strayed from the OP's question. Sorry for yet another hijack !! I should change my name on here to long john silver SSOOOWWWWYYYYY xxx

 

[Coconutz]

Chlorine Damage

To prevent oxidation on thin-film RO membranes, the feed water must be dechlorinated. Most membranes will have some chlorine tolerance before there is an observable decrease in salt rejection. Chlorine on the membrane can be discovered by an initial loss of membrane flux followed by an increase in membrane flux and salt passage.

For Dow FilmtecTM RO membranes, degradation can occur after roughly 200-1,000 hours of exposure to 1 mg/L of free chlorine. Unfortunately, chlorine damage is irreversible with any RO membrane, so proper steps must be taken to prevent it.

One drawback to the dechlorination process is that it can lead to biofouling on the RO membrane. For years, the standard operating procedure has been continuous chlorination and dechlorination of the feed water. Still, occurrences of biofouling after dechlorination are common. When chlorine reacts with organic matter in the water, it breaks it down into more biodegradable fragments. Unless the system is sanitized often, microorganisms can grow freely after dechlorination, since there is an enhanced nutrient offering but no chlorine on the membranes to act as a preventative.

Other dechlorination methods are growing in practice, such as applying chlorine off-line to the pretreatment section. All require careful monitoring and operating to prevent microorganisms from fouling the membrane.

Can Thin Film RO membranes tolerate chlorine?

Chlorine will oxidize the surface of thin film composite polyamide membranes, causing the membrane to lose its ability to repel or reject salts.

Thin film membranes can tolerate up to 1000 ppm-hours of chlorine. Traces of metals will accelerate oxidation. Therefore chlorine should be removed from the RO feed water.



But isn't distilled water purer than reverse osmosis water?

Distillers typically remove a few parts per million more of common mineral constituents like sodium.
However, distillers don't do a good job with volatile chemicals with a low boiling point. Chloramines, for example, which many cities now use instead of chlorine as a disinfectant, aren't removed well by distillers.
Reverse osmosis, with the carbon filters that accompany it, does a very good job with chloramines. Unless volatile chemicals like chlorine are removed by carbon filtration before they enter the distiller, they will be released into the room air or they will end up in the distilled water.
But in general, distilled water is very pure, as is reverse osmosis water.
If you live with Chloraminated water you do not want to use GAC under any circumstances!

As stated above "all carbon has some "Catalytic" properties to it", in a University Study (third party) they found that while Granulated Activated Carbon (GAC) does remove Chloramines due to it having some "Catalytic" capacity until that capacity is exhausted, once exhausted GAC actually starts to be broken down by the Chloramines. GAC was shown to break apart into microscopic pieces and flow into the water being treated. If you live with Chloraminated water you do not want to use GAC under any circumstances because at some point it will start dissolving into your water supply, that carbon has already absorbed all the pollutants in your water, you do not want to ingest this.

Catalytic Activated Carbon is the only carbon media made specifically for the removal of Chloramines, it is 100% Catalytic so it never breaks down until it needs to be removed, it is much harder and tougher than GAC. We recommend Catalytic Coconut Shell Activated Carbon for all residential uses, it is a sustainable and renewable resource, it can be recycled to top soil manufactures.


In the case of a reverse osmosis/deionizing system (where carbon is usually part of the prefiltration prior to the RO membrane), the ammonia is partially removed by the reverse osmosis system. The extent of removal by the RO membrane depends on pH. At pH 7.5 or lower, reverse osmosis will remove ammonia from 1.4 ppm-Cl monochloramine to less than 0.1 ppm ammonia. The DI resin then removes any residual ammonia to levels unimportant to an aquarist.
Removing Chloramine With Activated Carbon: Does it Really Work?
There has been much debate over whether commercial RO/DI systems used by aquarists are actually removing chloramine in adequate quantity. The concern is not whether they can theoretically do so, but whether the actual units allow sufficient contact time between the water and the activated carbon for the units to do an adequate job.
I have been using a Spectrapure RO/DI system (CSP25DI) for years, and my water does contain chloramine, so naturally I was interested to know if it was up to the task. In discussing the issue with Charles Mitsis, President of Spectrapure, he said that my water was among the most difficult to successfully remove chloramine from because the pH was high, and he was not sure that the unit was adequate. The reasons for being concerned were that:
1. Monochloramine is the most difficult of the three chloramine species to remove because it is small (allowing it to pass through a reverse osmosis membrane). 2. Monochloramine is the most chemically stable of the chloramine species, so is the hardest to break down (as on activated carbon). 3. Monochloramine predominates over the other forms in tap water at pH above 7 (dichloramine predominates at pH 4-7). 4. The pores of the activated carbon may become plugged with sediment over time, reducing the effectiveness of the carbon at breaking apart chloramine. 5. At high pH, the pores of the RO membrane can swell, resulting in poorer rejection of impurities.

Lessons Learned and Suggestions:
1. Most RO/DI systems seem capable of removing chloramine adequately for aquarists. 2. The carbon cartridge may become less useful over time, and it is possible that the chloramine removal effectiveness of a system may be lost before the DI appears to need changing. 3. Cheap sediment cartridges may expose the carbon cartridge to unnecessary fouling, which may permit chloramine to pass through the system. Cartridges should be replaced as soon as the pressure drops significantly, even if RO/DI water is still being produced at a reasonable rate or purity as measured by total dissolved solids. 4. Testing for chlorine and chloramine is easy, so any concern is easily reconciled. 5. One Hach kit provides several dozen test results. Our local Boston Club bought some kits and had a "water testing day." The kits can also become part of the "library" of a local club for aquarists to use once in a while to see if their systems are functioning. That way, the cost to each aquarist is minimal.
Happy Reefing!



Keep the sediment filters clean so they dont gunk up the carbon filter and get the psi within range and it should last its rated life.
Some carbon blocks will remove a higher percentage of the chloramine, but some arent designed to remove chloramines/ammonia in the amounts of some city water.
No offense taken, homeys

 

[drgr33nuk]

Chlorine Damage

To prevent oxidation on thin-film RO membranes, the feed water must be dechlorinated. Most membranes will have some chlorine tolerance before there is an observable decrease in salt rejection. Chlorine on the membrane can be discovered by an initial loss of membrane flux followed by an increase in membrane flux and salt passage.

For Dow FilmtecTM RO membranes, degradation can occur after roughly 200-1,000 hours of exposure to 1 mg/L of free chlorine. Unfortunately, chlorine damage is irreversible with any RO membrane, so proper steps must be taken to prevent it.

One drawback to the dechlorination process is that it can lead to biofouling on the RO membrane. For years, the standard operating procedure has been continuous chlorination and dechlorination of the feed water. Still, occurrences of biofouling after dechlorination are common. When chlorine reacts with organic matter in the water, it breaks it down into more biodegradable fragments. Unless the system is sanitized often, microorganisms can grow freely after dechlorination, since there is an enhanced nutrient offering but no chlorine on the membranes to act as a preventative.

Other dechlorination methods are growing in practice, such as applying chlorine off-line to the pretreatment section. All require careful monitoring and operating to prevent microorganisms from fouling the membrane.

View Image
Can Thin Film RO membranes tolerate chlorine?
View Image
Chlorine will oxidize the surface of thin film composite polyamide membranes, causing the membrane to lose its ability to repel or reject salts.

Thin film membranes can tolerate up to 1000 ppm-hours of chlorine. Traces of metals will accelerate oxidation. Therefore chlorine should be removed from the RO feed water.



But isn't distilled water purer than reverse osmosis water?

Distillers typically remove a few parts per million more of common mineral constituents like sodium.
However, distillers don't do a good job with volatile chemicals with a low boiling point. Chloramines, for example, which many cities now use instead of chlorine as a disinfectant, aren't removed well by distillers.
Reverse osmosis, with the carbon filters that accompany it, does a very good job with chloramines. Unless volatile chemicals like chlorine are removed by carbon filtration before they enter the distiller, they will be released into the room air or they will end up in the distilled water.
But in general, distilled water is very pure, as is reverse osmosis water.
If you live with Chloraminated water you do not want to use GAC under any circumstances!

As stated above "all carbon has some "Catalytic" properties to it", in a University Study (third party) they found that while Granulated Activated Carbon (GAC) does remove Chloramines due to it having some "Catalytic" capacity until that capacity is exhausted, once exhausted GAC actually starts to be broken down by the Chloramines. GAC was shown to break apart into microscopic pieces and flow into the water being treated. If you live with Chloraminated water you do not want to use GAC under any circumstances because at some point it will start dissolving into your water supply, that carbon has already absorbed all the pollutants in your water, you do not want to ingest this.

Catalytic Activated Carbon is the only carbon media made specifically for the removal of Chloramines, it is 100% Catalytic so it never breaks down until it needs to be removed, it is much harder and tougher than GAC. We recommend Catalytic Coconut Shell Activated Carbon for all residential uses, it is a sustainable and renewable resource, it can be recycled to top soil manufactures.


In the case of a reverse osmosis/deionizing system (where carbon is usually part of the prefiltration prior to the RO membrane), the ammonia is partially removed by the reverse osmosis system. The extent of removal by the RO membrane depends on pH. At pH 7.5 or lower, reverse osmosis will remove ammonia from 1.4 ppm-Cl monochloramine to less than 0.1 ppm ammonia. The DI resin then removes any residual ammonia to levels unimportant to an aquarist.
Removing Chloramine With Activated Carbon: Does it Really Work?
There has been much debate over whether commercial RO/DI systems used by aquarists are actually removing chloramine in adequate quantity. The concern is not whether they can theoretically do so, but whether the actual units allow sufficient contact time between the water and the activated carbon for the units to do an adequate job.
I have been using a Spectrapure RO/DI system (CSP25DI) for years, and my water does contain chloramine, so naturally I was interested to know if it was up to the task. In discussing the issue with Charles Mitsis, President of Spectrapure, he said that my water was among the most difficult to successfully remove chloramine from because the pH was high, and he was not sure that the unit was adequate. The reasons for being concerned were that:
1. Monochloramine is the most difficult of the three chloramine species to remove because it is small (allowing it to pass through a reverse osmosis membrane). 2. Monochloramine is the most chemically stable of the chloramine species, so is the hardest to break down (as on activated carbon). 3. Monochloramine predominates over the other forms in tap water at pH above 7 (dichloramine predominates at pH 4-7). 4. The pores of the activated carbon may become plugged with sediment over time, reducing the effectiveness of the carbon at breaking apart chloramine. 5. At high pH, the pores of the RO membrane can swell, resulting in poorer rejection of impurities.

Lessons Learned and Suggestions:
1. Most RO/DI systems seem capable of removing chloramine adequately for aquarists. 2. The carbon cartridge may become less useful over time, and it is possible that the chloramine removal effectiveness of a system may be lost before the DI appears to need changing. 3. Cheap sediment cartridges may expose the carbon cartridge to unnecessary fouling, which may permit chloramine to pass through the system. Cartridges should be replaced as soon as the pressure drops significantly, even if RO/DI water is still being produced at a reasonable rate or purity as measured by total dissolved solids. 4. Testing for chlorine and chloramine is easy, so any concern is easily reconciled. 5. One Hach kit provides several dozen test results. Our local Boston Club bought some kits and had a "water testing day." The kits can also become part of the "library" of a local club for aquarists to use once in a while to see if their systems are functioning. That way, the cost to each aquarist is minimal.
Happy Reefing!



Keep the sediment filters clean so they dont gunk up the carbon filter and get the psi within range and it should last its rated life.
Some carbon blocks will remove a higher percentage of the chloramine, but some arent designed to remove chloramines/ammonia in the amounts of some city water.
No offense taken, homeys

Sorry but I had to edit this post Just want to clear a few things up on the quoted material above.

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Chlorine will oxidize the surface of thin film composite polyamide membranes, causing the membrane to lose its ability to repel or reject salts.

Thin film membranes can tolerate up to 1000 ppm-hours of chlorine. Traces of metals will accelerate oxidation. Therefore chlorine should be removed from the RO feed water.[/FONT]

This is true but only relevant if you have a shit carbon block.

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Distillers typically remove a few parts per million more of common mineral constituents like sodium.
However, distillers don't do a good job with volatile chemicals with a low boiling point. Chloramines, for example, which many cities now use instead of chlorine as a disinfectant, aren't removed well by distillers.
Reverse osmosis, with the carbon filters that accompany it, does a very good job with chloramines. Unless volatile chemicals like chlorine are removed by carbon filtration before they enter the distiller, they will be released into the room air or they will end up in the distilled water.
But in general, distilled water is very pure, as is reverse osmosis water.
If you live with Chloraminated water you do not want to use GAC under any circumstances![/FONT]

I think the guy who wrote this has a puff on some hard core Sour OG because it doesn't make sense. Yes true distillers wont remove chlorine like gas UNLESS it's run through a good carbon block first. You can also incorporate a vent (apparently this is what I have read) that allows lighter gasses to be vaped through the top. but he then slips

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Reverse osmosis, with the carbon filters that accompany it, does a very good job with chloramines. Unless volatile chemicals like chlorine are removed by carbon filtration before they enter the distiller, they will be released into the room air or they will end up in the distilled water. [/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]

WTF where did that come from It's a sentence from another website explaining how to take chlorine out of the water before distilling with reverse osmosis crudly slapped at the start !!!

[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]As stated above "all carbon has some "Catalytic" properties to it", in a University Study (third party) they found that while Granulated Activated Carbon (GAC) does remove Chloramines due to it having some "Catalytic" capacity until that capacity is exhausted, once exhausted GAC actually starts to be broken down by the Chloramines. GAC was shown to break apart into microscopic pieces and flow into the water being treated. If you live with Chloraminated water you do not want to use GAC under any circumstances because at some point it will start dissolving into your water supply, that carbon has already absorbed all the pollutants in your water, you do not want to ingest this.

Catalytic Activated Carbon is the only carbon media made specifically for the removal of Chloramines, it is 100% Catalytic so it never breaks down until it needs to be removed, it is much harder and tougher than GAC. We recommend Catalytic Coconut Shell Activated Carbon for all residential uses, it is a sustainable and renewable resource, it can be recycled to top soil manufactures.[/FONT][/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]

OMG how many words can you get from "if you buy a shit carbon block, it will exhaust it's resources quickly due to an inferior quality product. This will in turn probably end up with some crap on it's way to your membrane." Still does not say a good carbon block won't remove 99.9% chlorine & chloramine.

[/FONT][/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]In the case of a reverse osmosis/deionizing system (where carbon is usually part of the prefiltration prior to the RO membrane), the ammonia is partially removed by the reverse osmosis system. The extent of removal by the RO membrane depends on pH. At pH 7.5 or lower, reverse osmosis will remove ammonia from 1.4 ppm-Cl monochloramine to less than 0.1 ppm ammonia. The DI resin then removes any residual ammonia to levels unimportant to an aquarist.
Removing Chloramine With Activated Carbon: Does it Really Work?
There has been much debate over whether commercial RO/DI systems used by aquarists are actually removing chloramine in adequate quantity. The concern is not whether they can theoretically do so, but whether the actual units allow sufficient contact time between the water and the activated carbon for the units to do an adequate job.
I have been using a Spectrapure RO/DI system (CSP25DI) for years, and my water does contain chloramine, so naturally I was interested to know if it was up to the task. In discussing the issue with Charles Mitsis, President of Spectrapure, he said that my water was among the most difficult to successfully remove chloramine from because the pH was high, and he was not sure that the unit was adequate. The reasons for being concerned were that:
1. Monochloramine is the most difficult of the three chloramine species to remove because it is small (allowing it to pass through a reverse osmosis membrane). 2. Monochloramine is the most chemically stable of the chloramine species, so is the hardest to break down (as on activated carbon). 3. Monochloramine predominates over the other forms in tap water at pH above 7 (dichloramine predominates at pH 4-7). 4. The pores of the activated carbon may become plugged with sediment over time, reducing the effectiveness of the carbon at breaking apart chloramine. 5. At high pH, the pores of the RO membrane can swell, resulting in poorer rejection of impurities.[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][/FONT][/FONT]All I have to say is WOW !! [/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Again another bullshit blind you with science fill you with bullshit paragraphs. Again the guys saying shit carbon blocks will fill with crap over time and end up sending some crap to your membrane that will damage it. What he fails to say it's more to do with the time the water comes into contact with the carbon. If you have a GOOD two stage carbon filter you won't have any chlorine left after filtration. If you use a singe carbon block and buy crap ebay jobbies you will end up with problems.[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]1. Most RO/DI systems seem capable of removing chloramine adequately for aquarists. 2. The carbon cartridge may become less useful over time, and it is possible that the chloramine removal effectiveness of a system may be lost before the DI appears to need changing. 3. Cheap sediment cartridges may expose the carbon cartridge to unnecessary fouling, which may permit chloramine to pass through the system. Cartridges should be replaced as soon as the pressure drops significantly, even if RO/DI water is still being produced at a reasonable rate or purity as measured by total dissolved solids. 4. Testing for chlorine and chloramine is easy, so any concern is easily reconciled. 5. One Hach kit provides several dozen test results. Our local Boston Club bought some kits and had a "water testing day." The kits can also become part of the "library" of a local club for aquarists to use once in a while to see if their systems are functioning. That way, the cost to each aquarist is minimal.[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]So what did I get from this paragraph ? Umm the same as all the others DON'T BUY CHEAP FILTERS & REPLACE YOUR FILTERS REGULARLY. Not only this he never said if his filter was removing chlorine ?

Now some sales patter from the guys I buy my blocks from.

[/FONT]

For Chloramine removal (most Carbon Filters will remove Chloramine but this is the one of the Best and will last longer than most).
The introduction of the Chlorplus represents a vast leap forward in carbon design technology, with a higher chloramine removal than any of RO-MAN's other granular or carbon blocks. The Chlorplus educes chloramine levels to below the guideline 0.1ppm from a 1ppm feed for over 45,000 litres. it's a pre-filter in renal applications, membrane life is extended, due to the absence of carbon fines, which are a common by-product of granular carbons.@ 5 microns.

Dude!!! That says basically what I have and it's sales patter from someone selling you something basically it's telling you not to be a slacker and change your filters if not chlorine will get into your membrane and damage it. And what a amusing read it is ;-)

Everything has a lifespan and everyone is aware your filters or membrane wont last for ever. Buy quality products and you will get at least 12 months of heavy use from your sediment and carbon blocks & 2 years from your membrane.

Coconutz do you own a RO machine? It's not a good look to just Google something without understanding the material. Look if you getting a high TDS from.you processed water you need new filters

But fuck it I ain't going to argue anymore we all growing good herb right.

 

[Coconutz]

ya no worries since I add back chlorine it aint no thang to me
plants seem to thrive without the addition of bacteria.
hell Im sure they even have their own already that are able to thrive in the conditions they are in
but yea... I have a prefilter for my ro that turns 100% brown in less than a week from LA/city water