Dropping half the Canna A for flowering

[bobthegrower]

Been doing this for three weeks now. Bud development hard at ten days.....

Canna want's you to buy more nutes.

25 yrs growing, first time in coco.i know what my plants like.

 

[drgr33nuk]

Been doing this for three weeks now. Bud development hard at ten days.....

Canna want's you to buy more nutes.

25 yrs growing, first time in coco.i know what my plants like.

Great news !! What strain ? Yes canna does Canna has a whole I find to be expensive and not the quality you would expect on some of their products. The coco medium I find to be no where near as well buffered as they would have you believe. This is why I asked about the media. Poorly buffered coco could contain more K and push you over the edge. And we have terrible problems with rogue fungi & plants in Canna terra professional plus. Also we get bad Fungus fly problems with the terra professional plus. We've had to use sharp sand in one of our greenhouses as the problem was uncontrollable.

They do like to "blind you with science". Sadly it happens throughout the board when it comes to nutrients worldwide.

Do you think the high K has brought forward the onset of flowers ? Cannabis start to consume lots of K as early as 1 week after turning your lights to 12/12. This accumulates in the cells around the flower sites and is stored as a reserve for big tings a gwan If you take a look at advanced nutrients bud blood they use high levels of P/K to achieve this but I've never been sure of adding all that P so early in flowering.

 

[siftedunity]

This has niggled me for a while now. How does reverse osmosis become more reactive with the atmosphere ? I've spoken to our supplier and a few knowledgeable guys and no one can work out what this is about. I promise to phone canna tomorrow and ask about this for a definitive answer.

The only thing we could come up with is H20 (WATER) + (CO2) (from air) = H2CO3 (carbonic acid). Increase the PH to 7 and you will get HCO3- + H+ but nothing that will bind with an element within the nutrients ?

Ro water is more reactive than normal tap water. im pretty sure that goes for distilled as well. basic science.

 

[drgr33nuk]

Ro water is more reactive than normal tap water. im pretty sure that goes for distilled as well. basic science.

Yes more reactive as it will strip elements from metals etc (if at a low or high PH) but not more reactive when we are talking nutrients. And how is this basic science ? Can you explain why Reverse osmosis water is more reactive ? Ya know it really gets me that people will read something or hear something and take it as the truth without doing some research. I've had an email from a moderator on this forum telling me all my knowledge comes from google and I should stop giving bad advice. If I have any advise for people reading forums or in general if someone is telling you something always do your own research. And don't just read things that derive from cannabis forums. To have a reaction you have to have something to react with. I use a five stage RO unit and my water comes out 0PPM. So the only thing in the water is water H2O. So we have H and O to react with ? To be fair it all sound like horsetail to me. Whats in tap water that reacts with nutrients you add ? What makes reverse osmosis more reactive ? Can you show me one research paper on the Internet that backs up this theory ? All I know is that I use pure RO water and have done for a while and have had no issues with my plants. When I filter for drinking I pass it through a re-mineralizer that adds cal / mag and other elements to make it healthy and taste better.

Please don't see this as a dig. I am just interested in expanding my knowledge.

 

[drgr33nuk]

Ro water is more reactive than normal tap water. im pretty sure that goes for distilled as well. basic science.

Also to make a carbonate you need CO2. I've read all sorts of bollox about the charge of the H2O molecules causing the O to be exposed to react more aggressively but this is all theory and I've not seen anyone actually demonstrate this and prove it.

Just doesn't make sense

 

[xxxstr8edgexxx]

what strain you running

 

[RetroGrow]

interesting, been a long time since i was able to talk with a canna rep. so the cannazym is actually adding pk to the nutrient solution and not just a coco conditioner helping break down old roots and dissolve salts?

did they say anything else about ro water? any recomendations about mixing ro and tap in cases of high tap ec? what about a ro water fert?

Have to disagree. There is no PK in Cannazym. It contains enzymes, vitamins, and aloe vera, which itself contains salicylic acid, which serves to boost the plants immune system.
From Canna website:

"CANNAZYM is a high-quality enzyme product. It consists of more than 12 different kinds of enzymes to which vitamins and extracts of desert plants are added. CANNAZYM speeds up the process of breaking down dead root material and activates the micro-organisms. In addition to this, CANNAZYM facilitates the improved absorption of nutrients and increases the resistance against pathogenic organisms.
In a root system that functions well, roots die and new roots are formed. The remains of roots that died form an ideal growing substrate for pathogenic organisms. After the pathogenic moulds have multiplied in the dead root material, they are a threat to the healthy roots. These are easily affected, and will lose an important part of their function. This causes stress to the entire plant and stunts any new growth.
Enzymes are substances that speed up the reactions in living organisms. (Example: enzymes play a vital role in our digestion).

The enzymes in CANNAZYM facilitate fast conversion of dead roots into minerals and sugars. This is important, as they make up a valuable source of nutrients for the plant as well as for the soil environment. A fast breakdown of root remains creates a balanced air and soil hydrology in the root environment. Furthermore, putrefaction and consequently the formation of toxic substances are prevented and the risk of an infection by pathogenic moulds is considerably reduced. This is ideal for your plant. The soil environment is improved, as the minerals and sugars that are formed as a result of using CANNAZYM, are important for the bacteria located close to the roots. These bacteria provide the plant with extra protection against diseases that are caused by moulds and facilitate the exchange nutrients and vitamins with the roots. This results in improved balance and an increased absorption capacity.
CANNAZYM contains several easy-to-absorb vitamins that stimulate the plant to form new roots. A well-developed root system uses of a lot of young growing-points. Elements like calcium, magnesium and iron are absorbed exactly by these growing-points. Furthermore, a substance that has been isolated from desert plants has been added to CANNAZYM, as a result of which the plant’s natural defence system will be improved. Activation of the defence system of the plant increases the protection against pathogenic organisms. A defence system that functions optimally allows the plant to react quickly against an imminent attack; eventual damage will be prevented or limited.

The above-mentioned information also explains why CANNAZYM is indispensable with the reuse of growing substrates; the root remains will be rapidly broken down and transformed into advantageous nutrients; infections will be prevented and the air/water relation in the root environment will be improved."
Interesting video that shows how cannazym breaks down dead root material:
http://www.cannagardening.com/cannazym

 

[RetroGrow]

silly question i know, but can they think of any reason why i have better results when i recirculate my nutrient solution using A+B plus cannazym rather then running to waste?plants leaves might not look as perfect as when running to waste, but the bud production is better for me when i recirculate.

i have heard it suggested that coggr A+B is better when running to waste?

Because recirculating adds oxygen to the mix, increasing growth rate. That's why it's beneficial to water/feed frequently with coco. The fresh mix brings fresh oxygen to the mix, which brings explosive growth. The more you water/feed, the more oxygen you add= explosive growth rate. That's why drippers work so well with coco, and additionally, Hempy buckets are the bomb with coco. Water daily or twice daily and growth is incredible.
I used Canna for years, until I switched to Maxibloom/K.I.S.S., along with Florilicious+. Easier to use (no mixing),MUCH cheaper, and I prefer the results. No worries about cal/mag. The only thing I can add is: use tap water with coco. Canna coco is made for tap water. Tap water has calcium.

 

[xxxstr8edgexxx]

Because recirculating adds oxygen to the mix, increasing growth rate. That's why it's beneficial to water/feed frequently with coco. The fresh mix brings fresh oxygen to the mix, which brings explosive growth. The more you water/feed, the more oxygen you add= explosive growth rate. That's why drippers work so well with coco, and additionally, Hempy buckets are the bomb with coco. Water daily or twice daily and growth is incredible.
I used Canna for years, until I switched to Maxibloom/K.I.S.S., along with Florilicious+. Easier to use (no mixing),MUCH cheaper, and I prefer the results. No worries about cal/mag. The only thing I can add is: use tap water with coco. Canna coco is made for tap water. Tap water has calcium.

on the high aeration topic.
i cut my teeth this round on my irrigation by dropping my pot size on my last soil run.i descided to go coco while i was commited in soil for the round coming up. but i built the system and decided not to uppot to my normal 7 gal and left in fives. a little too small for once a day. essentially running it very similar to coco multifeed. it is getting twice a day feedings at lights on and halfway through lightcycle. just enough to let em be thirsty again in 12 hours. they are responding really well.
i would do this in soil now after trying it if i wasnt switching to coco. slightly small pot, runoff every watering, in soil looks pretty good also.

 

[RetroGrow]

With coco, you don't need nearly as large a pot. I've grown 8 foot trees in 2 gallon pots. They just require more frequent waterings. In Hempy buckets, 2 or 3 gallon is fine, and 5 is overkill and a waste of coco, unless you are lazy or can't water more frequently. More waterings/feedings bring fresh oxygen =explosive growth.

 

[xxxstr8edgexxx]

Yeah I'm doing that with coco my last post was in reference to my last soil run I'm currently in while I'm begining my new coco round which I'm doing 4 per k so I was thinking 3s

 

[drgr33nuk]

Have to disagree. There is no PK in Cannazym. It contains enzymes, vitamins, and aloe vera, which itself contains salicylic acid, which serves to boost the plants immune system.
From Canna website:

"CANNAZYM is a high-quality enzyme product. It consists of more than 12 different kinds of enzymes to which vitamins and extracts of desert plants are added. CANNAZYM speeds up the process of breaking down dead root material and activates the micro-organisms. In addition to this, CANNAZYM facilitates the improved absorption of nutrients and increases the resistance against pathogenic organisms.
In a root system that functions well, roots die and new roots are formed. The remains of roots that died form an ideal growing substrate for pathogenic organisms. After the pathogenic moulds have multiplied in the dead root material, they are a threat to the healthy roots. These are easily affected, and will lose an important part of their function. This causes stress to the entire plant and stunts any new growth.
Enzymes are substances that speed up the reactions in living organisms. (Example: enzymes play a vital role in our digestion).

The enzymes in CANNAZYM facilitate fast conversion of dead roots into minerals and sugars. This is important, as they make up a valuable source of nutrients for the plant as well as for the soil environment. A fast breakdown of root remains creates a balanced air and soil hydrology in the root environment. Furthermore, putrefaction and consequently the formation of toxic substances are prevented and the risk of an infection by pathogenic moulds is considerably reduced. This is ideal for your plant. The soil environment is improved, as the minerals and sugars that are formed as a result of using CANNAZYM, are important for the bacteria located close to the roots. These bacteria provide the plant with extra protection against diseases that are caused by moulds and facilitate the exchange nutrients and vitamins with the roots. This results in improved balance and an increased absorption capacity.
CANNAZYM contains several easy-to-absorb vitamins that stimulate the plant to form new roots. A well-developed root system uses of a lot of young growing-points. Elements like calcium, magnesium and iron are absorbed exactly by these growing-points. Furthermore, a substance that has been isolated from desert plants has been added to CANNAZYM, as a result of which the plant’s natural defence system will be improved. Activation of the defence system of the plant increases the protection against pathogenic organisms. A defence system that functions optimally allows the plant to react quickly against an imminent attack; eventual damage will be prevented or limited.

The above-mentioned information also explains why CANNAZYM is indispensable with the reuse of growing substrates; the root remains will be rapidly broken down and transformed into advantageous nutrients; infections will be prevented and the air/water relation in the root environment will be improved."
Interesting video that shows how cannazym breaks down dead root material:
http://www.cannagardening.com/cannazym

Lol I ate my words on this subject it does actually contain P @ 20.03 mg/l and K @ 10.01 mg/l but it's a preservative and cannas base nutrients does NOT require you use it.

Canna would like you too but nope at that levels it doesn't do much. Plants like K @ P and will munch it up no problems. Hence phosphoric acid being the ingredient for most flowering ph down. But you are excused from not knowing the line because the only fucking place they put this info is on the back of the bottle. If it was a big deal it would be in their written literature and not at some trade show where they are highly unlikely to be picked up on their misinformation lol.

It's like they say you have 6 uses out of coco and it's dead. I have jade plants and other cactus in coco +5 years old and they look great. And no sign of decomposing yet although I will be replanting them next year but they fucking love the stuff.

 

[bobthegrower]

Told it's the Chemo. Looks like Montreal version.

Other myths to shatter....

Never had run off, and I let them nearly dry out before feeding again. It has taken two months to get the slurry test up to 500 ppm (hanna) and Ph 5.8. Just seen the first slight claw in a couple of leaves and backed off the feed by 100 ppm. Now at 750 ppm half A , full B. 5 ml/gal calmag ,then 6ml/gal Koolbloom plus diamond nectar and floral nectar. End PPM was 1000, now backed off to 900 ppm. Claw has now un- clawed. Surfing the curve.Am liking the coco, insane root balls in ten gal pots.They drink 5 liters a day each and every day. All are looking very happy and are praying to the gods.

If I had more roof space I would drop the A one ml/gal per day in exchange for one ml/gal of kool bloom over the first two weeks of stretch to get them bigger.

 

[Snow Crash]

Lol I ate my words on this subject...

At recommended dosage for flowering of 13ml/gallon Canna A+B we get approximately:

N: 172ppm
P: 60ppm
K: 86ppm

Cannazym at the recommended dosage of 9.5ml/gallon adds:

N: 0ppm
P: 21ppm
K: 22ppm

Changing the finished ratio to

172-81-108

While you think 21ppm of Phosphorus is not big deal that opinion depends on not looking at the ratios and the numbers; instead, assuming that because the percentage isn't awful high that its impact cannot be significant. This is incredibly false and hugely detrimental to other growers who would listen to that advice.

Cannazym is a 35% boost to Phosphorus levels and a 25% boost to Potassium levels. It alters the balance of cations and will most certainly impact the uptake of necessary elements. It isn't a drop of water in the bucket, it's a serious shift from the old ratios to new, and the numbers defend that opinion.

From having no NPK, to having some but not enough to matter, to finally understanding that every little bit counts and how.

The PK 13/14 down the road is another major shift in the ratios as it is used at 5.7ml/gallon. This adds yet another:

N: 0ppm
P: 65ppm
K: 140ppm

Which takes the adjusted values to:

186 - 150 - 256

Another HUGE impact to the nutrient solution ratios and solution chemistry.

 

[gaiusmarius]

well the pk 13/14 actually adds to the ec level visible, while the zym will change nothing on the ec meter, but i get your point it all counts that for sure.

 

[Snow Crash]

Told it's the Chemo. Looks like Montreal version.

Other myths to shatter....

Never had run off, and I let them nearly dry out before feeding again. It has taken two months to get the slurry test up to 500 ppm (hanna) and Ph 5.8. Just seen the first slight claw in a couple of leaves and backed off the feed by 100 ppm. Now at 750 ppm half A , full B. 5 ml/gal calmag ,then 6ml/gal Koolbloom plus diamond nectar and floral nectar. End PPM was 1000, now backed off to 900 ppm. Claw has now un- clawed. Surfing the curve.Am liking the coco, insane root balls in ten gal pots.They drink 5 liters a day each and every day. All are looking very happy and are praying to the gods.

If I had more roof space I would drop the A one ml/gal per day in exchange for one ml/gal of kool bloom over the first two weeks of stretch to get them bigger.

1000pppm
10 gallon containers
No runoff
Mismatching the proper use of A+B nutrients

I'll start with the low hanging fruit...

Suggested strength for you should be what, 13ml/gallon. So 1/2 of the A is 6.5ml/gallon. By cutting that out you've removed:

N: 87ppm
P: 0ppm
K: 15ppm
Ca: 78ppm

Then, 5ml/gallon of Cal-Mag plus adds back:

N: 27ppm
P: 0ppm
K: 0ppm
Ca: 60ppm
Mg: 20ppm

And the 6ml/gallon of KoolBloom:

N: 0ppm
P: 69ppm
K: 133ppm

You've effectively removed:
N: 60ppm
Ca: 18ppm

And added:
P: 69ppm
K: 118ppm
Mg: 20ppm

For a final ratio:
114 - 129 - 206 Calcium: 138ppm Magnesium: 62ppm
(and a lot of extra "A" when it's all done)

Which seems like too much P and Ca for my tastes.

8ml of A+B, with 2ml of Cal-Mag plus, and 8ml of KoolBloom would result in equal use of the base nutrients and almost the same ratio:
118 - 129 - 233 Calcium: 112ppm Magnesium: 34ppm

But I might cut that to more of a 7.5ml on the A+B, 5ml on the KoolBloom, 2.5ml on the Cal-Mag plus, and a pinch of Epsom when needed. I don't think that using different amounts of A+B was the only, or best, approach even with a limited number of supplements to fill the gaps.

Clearly though Coco is the most versatile media on the planet. To each their own!

 

[Snow Crash]

well the pk 13/14 actually adds to the ec level visible, while the zym will change nothing on the ec meter, but i get your point it all counts that for sure.

I think that might have more to do with how the EC is calculated. Using free elements in the solution to create a kind of "wire" between the two ends of the probe, then measuring the strength of that current to compare it to a table where it chooses what EC to display. With the Cannazym being so highly chelated with Amino Acids and the such the electrical conductance is low but the elements are actually more available to the plant due to the molecular envelope they are inside.

Some elements will make an EC meter wiggle more than others. It's really all a "best guess" as the measured current they use as a baseline is normally based on a much more simple NaCl solution. We have all kinds of free elements and organic molecules in our nutrient solutions so the EC is really more of a relational tool (I read 1.2ec today, so next time around I'll use the same 1.2ec reading even if it's not accurate). An EC meter is intended to be precise, not accurate.

 

[drgr33nuk]

At recommended dosage for flowering of 13ml/gallon Canna A+B we get approximately:

N: 172ppm
P: 60ppm
K: 86ppm

Cannazym at the recommended dosage of 9.5ml/gallon adds:

N: 0ppm
P: 21ppm
K: 22ppm

Changing the finished ratio to

172-81-108

While you think 21ppm of Phosphorus is not big deal that opinion depends on not looking at the ratios and the numbers; instead, assuming that because the percentage isn't awful high that its impact cannot be significant. This is incredibly false and hugely detrimental to other growers who would listen to that advice.

Cannazym is a 35% boost to Phosphorus levels and a 25% boost to Potassium levels. It alters the balance of cations and will most certainly impact the uptake of necessary elements. It isn't a drop of water in the bucket, it's a serious shift from the old ratios to new, and the numbers defend that opinion.

From having no NPK, to having some but not enough to matter, to finally understanding that every little bit counts and how.

The PK 13/14 down the road is another major shift in the ratios as it is used at 5.7ml/gallon. This adds yet another:

N: 0ppm
P: 65ppm
K: 140ppm

Which takes the adjusted values to:

186 - 150 - 256

Another HUGE impact to the nutrient solution ratios and solution chemistry.

How did you calculate these figures? Cannazym is 2% P and 1% K. Pk 13/14 is 13% P and 14% K your ppm calculations don't add up?

 

[Snow Crash]

PK 13/14 is actually a 0-10-11

"P" as it is labeled is P2O4. This is only 43% elemental P, the rest is just Oxygen.
"K" as it is labeled is K2O. This is only 84% elemental K, the rest is just Oxygen.

So, while Nitrogen, Calcium, Magnesium (etc) is listed in their proper percentages PK is not and needs to be accounted for.

I use a simplified version of %*ml*2.654 to get a rough ppm estimate. The 2.654 constant comes from the Mg/L conversion for gallons. Then I multiply by 0.43 or 0.84 when it applies to get the Oxygen out of the way.

 

[bobthegrower]

lady's are happy