Question about breeders

[evertking]

OK.. I been reading a bit trying to get an understanding on this breeding thing and been bean shopping.
My first question is do breeders like Serious and Sensi for example.. They have been using the same parent plants for all these years to make F1's?
Their IBL offerings, when these are produced are these from skunk1 mom and dad crosses or big open pollinations?
Just trying to get an understand on what I'm spending my $$$ on. I really would like yo try my hand at making my own seed if I'm gonna drop that extra money on pricy beans. Which brings me to my last question. When looking for seeds to make your on what should you be looking for in a breeder and their offerings? Outside of " Hey, I really like the buzz and ease of growth,yeild and taste of NL#5." Thanks

 

[Mustafunk]

They aren't... most seedbanks, especially Serious and Sensi seedbanks no longer have their parent plants, it's well known they have changed many strains. This is also the case with many other dutch seedbanks and why they become worse since the 2000s, when the Dutch laws changed and big grow operations to produce seed were banned. So everything become closet-produced lol. Nowadays, most stuff is produced in Spain by amateur breeders in bulk so it's even worse. But they live from their big names and fame.

This is why people is always looking for Pre-2000 dutch elites.

 

[Koondense]

Hi Mustafunk,
you mean the seedstock of large banks is produced by third parties?
I heard of it sometime ago and thought it was a bad joke:/

Damn, must be a gamble to buy anything from them, it seems.

I suspect from now on I'll buy only from breeders that are approved by good growers here on the mag and other good forums.


Thanx for the info, good thread.

 

[sensibuds]

Pricier beans used to mean a more stable line. Maybe 2 phenos?

I'm seeing many pull up to 5 phenos per strain nowadays.

In the early 00's, I don't feel we had they pheno hunters we do now.

Is this bad? I don't think so. I feel like it gets everyone a little more involved in how breeding works.

Sure your gonna have some weird results from time to time, but a gem is always lurking, waiting to be found

 

[Rinse]

Maple leaf indica from Sensi is stable and true breeding, Im growing some F2's now.

 

[komboloi]

I've had mixed experience with European breeders. My success has been better with British Columbian breeders, but that may just be luck. The problem for us buyers is that these breeders could tell us anything, and we'd never know.

Assume you place an order for 10 "Northern Lights #5" seeds. They germinate, they grow, they flower well, and after 9 weeks you've got good bud. Is it really NL5? You have no way of knowing. And if the results are good, you probably don't care. You certainly won't complain. You're more likely to give a nice endorsement of the breeder. But you might have grown out 10 mostly-indica anything. "NL5" in that case was just a marketing ploy.

I've ordered seeds from Europe where the plants that grew were not as described. I'm suspicious the breeder packaged whatever it had laying around and called that good enough.

In addition, the genetics in the past 20 years have gotten all mixed up, crossed, forgotten, reformulated, etc. etc. So if you grow out "Skunk #1" today, it may not produce anything like Skunk #1 from 1999. And you have no way of knowing what genetics are in those seeds you bought.

My solution has been to chuck pollen to create my own seeds out of plants I like. Then do inbred crosses to progressively select for the qualities I want. That way I don't have to rely on the seed banks and breeders except when I want to inject some fresh genetics. But when I do that, I don't have any certainty that what I'm buying is what is advertised. Could be bag seed for all I know. Even "reputable" breeders operate behind a black curtain behind which I cannot see.

In my view, the world's breeders would benefit from creating a voluntary organization that would inspect and certify the seeds being distributed. It would be expensive for the breeders, but it would increase the value of their beans.

 

[sensibuds]

I've had mixed experience with European breeders. My success has been better with British Columbian breeders, but that may just be luck. The problem for us buyers is that these breeders could tell us anything, and we'd never know.

Assume you place an order for 10 "Northern Lights #5" seeds. They germinate, they grow, they flower well, and after 9 weeks you've got good bud. Is it really NL5? You have no way of knowing. And if the results are good, you probably don't care. You certainly won't complain. You're more likely to give a nice endorsement of the breeder. But you might have grown out 10 mostly-indica anything. "NL5" in that case was just a marketing ploy.

I've ordered seeds from Europe where the plants that grew were not as described. I'm suspicious the breeder packaged whatever it had laying around and called that good enough.

In addition, the genetics in the past 20 years have gotten all mixed up, crossed, forgotten, reformulated, etc. etc. So if you grow out "Skunk #1" today, it may not produce anything like Skunk #1 from 1999. And you have no way of knowing what genetics are in those seeds you bought.

My solution has been to chuck pollen to create my own seeds out of plants I like. Then do inbred crosses to progressively select for the qualities I want. That way I don't have to rely on the seed banks and breeders except when I want to inject some fresh genetics. But when I do that, I don't have any certainty that what I'm buying is what is advertised. Could be bag seed for all I know. Even "reputable" breeders operate behind a black curtain behind which I cannot see.

In my view, the world's breeders would benefit from creating a voluntary organization that would inspect and certify the seeds being distributed. It would be expensive for the breeders, but it would increase the value of their beans.

Boy did you nail this one to the floor brother.

Many to this day have "exclusive" cuts that are actually something different than what the believe they have.

Unfortunately many feel they can grow a strain and rename it, or give it a false background. To make themselves look cool or feel better? You be the judge.

Would it be worth gathering some of the last pure strains and have them genetically tested so we have something to go off of? I think so!

 

[Wayzer]

You can find many good seeds out there..... Sometimes it's luck of the draw.... when you are buying 10 seeds for 100$ it's not always a guarantee u get what u are looking for....
When i started buying seeds 10 years ago, i thought the more money i spent, the better the genetics/chances/strain..... but being here on icmag proved this not to be true....
ill give u a most recent example of mine, just so u understand..
I just finished 1 year popping and testing these genetics that i bought from seedbay/seedboutique over the last 9 years:
True Blueberry by Dj Short 180.00$CAD 10 seeds
Sour Diesel IBL by Rezervoir 160.00$CAD 10 seeds
BlueMoonRocks (BMR) by BOGrower 80.00$CAD 10 seeeds
Prophet by Grndhouse 80.00$CAD 16 seeds
SSSDHxSS by MrM 45.00$CAD 10seeds
Grapefruit by Female Seeds 25.00$CAD 4 seeds

Which do u think had my personal favorite pheno? Out of 37 females i had.... the 2 i enjoyed the most..... Grapefruit and SSSDHxSS.......

I'll just add this. if u are new to buying seeds and growing these foreign genetics, u will have to somehow be aware of your current experience with canabis. Meaning, that if u have been hanging around ppl who smoke elites and run crazy shit, u may not be very easily impressed.... Just do your homework, and usualy that doesnt matter too much, but it will at least guide you to the more RELIABLE breeders....
Good Luck

 

[komboloi]

Boy did you nail this one to the floor brother.

Many to this day have "exclusive" cuts that are actually something different than what the believe they have.

Unfortunately many feel they can grow a strain and rename it, or give it a false background. To make themselves look cool or feel better? You be the judge.

Would it be worth gathering some of the last pure strains and have them genetically tested so we have something to go off of? I think so!

Amen, brother. The technology exists to do genetic testing, and it's not that expensive for a lab that has the equipment. University agricultural departments do this all the time. Don't count on breeders to bother, though. Most of them would be appalled at what they really have and are passing off as something else, and they don't want to be embarrassed. Plus 95% of all stoners buying seed will fall for the marketing of seed companies anyway, so why bother?

But long term, the seed producers would benefit from some sort of trade group that performs testing and certification. Grass seed breeders do it. Corn breeders do it. Wheat seed breeders do it. And this isn't Monsanto. It's the seed producers, because they understand that their product is much more valuable if their product has been tested and certified.

 

[harry74]

They aren't... most seedbanks, especially Serious and Sensi seedbanks no longer have their parent plants, it's well known they have changed many strains. This is also the case with many other dutch seedbanks and why they become worse since the 2000s, when the Dutch laws changed and big grow operations to produce seed were banned. So everything become closet-produced lol. Nowadays, most stuff is produced in Spain by amateur breeders in bulk so it's even worse. But they live from their big names and fame.

This is why people is always looking for Pre-2000 dutch elites.

Do you know if Sensi Seeds has changed the parents of Early Grl?

Thanks.

 

[evertking]

So, are they allowed to grow out large numbers for selection in Spain? That's a shame that the dutch seeds are not what they were. So buying Dinafem would be a better option than.. Say... DP to Paradise. Hell.. Dinafem may produce for them. Hmmm What about Mr Nice? They were in Amsterdam or Swiss?
I know a lot of people rag on GHS for this and that but from their vids they are able to grow out large numbers. Like GHS or not... That's a good thing for the buyer.. Hopefully who ever is in charge of the breeding can pick a diamond from a turd.

 

[komboloi]

Don't ignore the Canadian breeders. I've had good results from seeds acquired from the British Columbia Seed Company, Dr. Atomic, and Jordan of the Islands. The Vancouver Seed Bank carries a nice selection, ships worldwide, and has never let me down on a shipment. I don't believe they contract out their pollination like so many Dutch breeders, but rather do it onsite by themselves.

Did I get the exact genetics that were advertised? I have no way of knowing. But the seeds germinated and produced good plants that produced good bud approximately as advertised. That's about as much as we can expect when buying from breeders whose operations are uninspected and uncertified. At least when I produce my own seeds, I know what I'm getting, even if I can't be sure that the original seeds that started that line had the exact genetics stated by the breeder at the time I purchased those foundational seeds.

I remember watching a documentary about the Dutch breeder Arjan Roskam of Green House Seeds. In one segment, he's telling the camera man that he's got to go around and check on the grows of people who are doing the seed production for him under contract, and he made it sound like there were a lot of them. He said he couldn't produce enough seed himself because of Dutch law. I immediately thought to myself, "No way would I ever buy seeds from this guy. He has no idea what his contractors might be doing, and I have no idea what he might be doing." I have been told (but don't know first hand) that this is the way all the major Dutch breeders operate now. I can't see any reason to purchase from them, particularly since the major ones tend to have very high seed prices. And I'm not in Europe, so there's the shipping (not a big deal, but my suppliers are closer and cheaper, and I like that).

 

[Mustafunk]

So, are they allowed to grow out large numbers for selection in Spain?

Hmmm What about Mr Nice? They were in Amsterdam or Swiss?

Unforunately not, no big fields for breeding seeds here either, that's the sad thing. The only big grows here are the illegal ones, many of them done to supply the Amsterdam shops or cannabis clubs through the back door lol.

Most seeds are done in big indoor rooms, but basically closet breeding as well, don't expect crazy parental selections of thousands of plants or epic breeding. This isn't paradise either but who needs the space? with well known elite clone and a few plants to select a male or revert another clone, that's how they do it!

As far as I know, when the dutch laws changed, Mr. Nice moved to Switzerland, it was paradise there at that time... but people become too greedy and they pushed too much, until it finally exploded and they ended reforming the laws there too!

 

[RoadRash]

I think the main thing you are buying is the 'controlled fanaticism/ enthusiasm' of the breeder.

e.g. Ken Estes (GDP seeds), or Subcool, or Bodhi. All obsessed, as far as I can tell, with making THE BEST MEDICINE possible.

I think one of the best seed deals is Freedom of Seeds Romberry, Romulan x Blueberry.

 

[2bags]

In my experience you'll have far better results with the private breeders that sell through seedbay or boutique than big name breeders.

The strains are documented on the forums so you know what you're buying rather than relying on marketing nonsense, and you can communicate directly with the breeders if any issues arise.

1

 

[komboloi]

Relying on breeders -- even small ones -- to tell us what they have is like letting vegetable farmers self-report voluntarily whether they are growing organically. Maybe they are, maybe they aren't. You'll never know. That is why "organic" or "biologique" status is certified within an inspection program. And you know who benefits most from that? The growers, because their crops are worth more if they permit the inspections and earn the certification. Think about it.

 

[evertking]

Don't ignore the Canadian breeders.

I have been looking at Peak seeds and have read good things about them. The blueberry for 40 bucks. Their was one that I always wanted to buy from.. Think it was joey weed? Stoned and can't recall but kicking myself now cause can't find his work now.