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Dud Identification Collective Knowledge.

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Storm Shadow

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http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0042682205007798


A new eriophyid mite-borne membrane-enveloped virus-like complex isolated from plants


Abstract

A decade ago, a new mite-transmitted disease was described on wheat (Triticum aesativum) and maize (Zea mays) that due to its geographical location was referred to as High Plains Disease (HPD). To determine the etiology, we established colonies of HPD pathogen-transmitting eriophyid wheat curl mites (Aceria tosichella) on wheat plants for maintenance of a continuous source of infected material. Analyses of nucleic acid obtained from infected plants showed the presence of HPD-specific RNAs ranging from 1.5 to 8 kilobases, but comparisons between the sequence of cDNAs and the databases did not reveal any clear identity with known viruses. We demonstrate that a diagnostic HPD-specific 32-kDa protein that accumulates in plants is encoded by a small RNA species (RNA-s). Upon infestation of upper wheat parts with viruliferous mites, the RNA-s encoded protein becomes detectable within a few days in the roots, indicative of an effective virus-like mode of transport. Membranous particles, resembling those observed in thin sections of infected plants, were isolated and shown to envelope a thread-like ribonucleoprotein complex containing the RNA-s encoded 32-kDa protein. This complex was associated with single-stranded (−)-sense RNAs, whereas free (+)-sense RNA was only detected in total RNA of infected plants. Based on the collective properties, we conclude that HPD is caused by a newly emerged mite-borne virus, for which we propose the name Maize red stripe virus (MRStV).


 

Storm Shadow

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http://www.scirp.org/journal/PaperInformation.aspx?PaperID=43623

Alpha-Tomatin against Witches’ Broom Disease

ABSTRACT
Several plants use secondary metabolites against insects and pathogens attack. Among such metabolites known glycoalkaloids are the most studied. Plants from Solanaceae Family are the most abundant on those alkaloids. Despite alfa-tomatine is a known glycoalkaloid, its specific action against Moniliophthora perniciosa, fungi responsible for witches broom disease in cocoa plantations was obtained in this work. Alfa-tomatine was infusion-extracted from Solanum lycopersicum leaves, and its action against the fungi growth was shown on the bioassays. In these tests, M. perniciosa growth was totally inhibited but other fungus tested, the inhibition was not totally, or did not present effect on growth, showing in this way, the specificity of alfa-tomatine to M. perniciosa. The advantages of work with a natural molecule for the fungi control is the stability of the molecule, its resistance to high temperature and pressure and for its use, the simple method of extraction used. The confirmation of the alfa-tomatine molecule was done by High Performance Liquid Chromatography and Mass Spectrometry in comparison to the Sigma standard.

Conclusion​
The glycoalcaloid alfa-tomatine, present in S. lycopersicum leaves is able to inhibit growth of Moniliophthora
perniciosa
fungi as a excellent bio compound to be used for the control of this important phytopathogen, showing
important characteristics as an easy extraction method in water, high stability in aqueous media, thermic resistance and selectiveness
 

Storm Shadow

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Crown Gall ... This sounds very interesting

look at post #363

https://www.icmag.com/ic/showpost.php?p=6369564&postcount=363



http://www.plantmanagementnetwork.org/pub/php/research/2012/fig/

Spatial Distribution of Crown Gall in a Commercial Nursery of Weeping Fig

Abstract
Agrobacterium larrymoorei causes tumors on weeping fig. The association between propagation and pathogen spread in mother trees and daughter branches was studied in a commercial nursery. The mother tree planting was scouted for tumors prior to and after propagation. Branches selected for propagation were tagged to track disease development. The spatial distribution of crown gall in the mother tree planting was characterized with runs, join-count, and spatial autocorrelation analyses. The association of disease in mother trees and daughter branches was characterized with cross-correlation analysis. The incidence of crown gall in the mother tree planting increased from 7% prior to propagation to 32% eight months after propagation. Of the 4193 daughter branches monitored, 3.8% developed tumors. Runs analysis indicated significant clustering of diseased mother trees. Significant cross-correlations between mother trees and daughter branches with symptoms of crown gall were detected out to a distance of two plants from the source. Although pruning shears were routinely soaked in a disinfectant in this nursery, the degree of sterilization achieved apparently was not sufficient to prevent pathogen transmission. This study suggests that alternative sanitation measures should be sought and that infected mother trees and their neighbors should be avoided for propagation.
 

xxxstr8edgexxx

Active member
Veteran
Crown Gall ... This sounds very interesting

look at post #363

https://www.icmag.com/ic/showpost.php?p=6369564&postcount=363



http://www.plantmanagementnetwork.org/pub/php/research/2012/fig/

Spatial Distribution of Crown Gall in a Commercial Nursery of Weeping Fig

Abstract
Agrobacterium larrymoorei causes tumors on weeping fig. The association between propagation and pathogen spread in mother trees and daughter branches was studied in a commercial nursery. The mother tree planting was scouted for tumors prior to and after propagation. Branches selected for propagation were tagged to track disease development. The spatial distribution of crown gall in the mother tree planting was characterized with runs, join-count, and spatial autocorrelation analyses. The association of disease in mother trees and daughter branches was characterized with cross-correlation analysis. The incidence of crown gall in the mother tree planting increased from 7% prior to propagation to 32% eight months after propagation. Of the 4193 daughter branches monitored, 3.8% developed tumors. Runs analysis indicated significant clustering of diseased mother trees. Significant cross-correlations between mother trees and daughter branches with symptoms of crown gall were detected out to a distance of two plants from the source. Although pruning shears were routinely soaked in a disinfectant in this nursery, the degree of sterilization achieved apparently was not sufficient to prevent pathogen transmission. This study suggests that alternative sanitation measures should be sought and that infected mother trees and their neighbors should be avoided for propagation.
a local soil company here bout an entire orchards worth of mulch that was culled for crown rot. as you can imagine it spread. outdoor growers used lots of it and then started investigating the companies source when they diagnosed the issue. the company reimbursed the growers and gave source material info transparently. bummer
 

xxxstr8edgexxx

Active member
Veteran
Ok he may be being really rude (it's obvious he wouldn't dispute this) but I will say, his info is very well researched. So before we let someone's attitude bait us into petty dispute it would be good to not let this thread devolve into infighting. Not saying anyone should feel entitled to be dickish I'm just saying don't let their attitude initiate you to contribute to it. Storm shadow if you want participate,I would argue that your input is valuable, it would be incredibly helpful if you remain civil to others on this thread even if you don't value Thier contributions. I think this site has always been a conglomeration of growers of all levels of skill and of various styles and scale. All serious and thoughtful post weather correct or on a wrong track can be acknowledged respectfully as such or ignored. I think everyone should feel like anything they observe or experience should be at the least tolerated without being told they aren't worthwhile or insulted. Friendly humorous disagreements and light heckling aside we don't need to engage in insults that make people feel unwelcome. I'm not totally innocent in this. but this is an important topic that warrants extra care to not turn this into a shark tank where others with valuable but contradictory info, opinions or observations would shy away from for fear of being attacked. RESPECT on a basic level regardless of differing thoughts on this could go along way towards the inclusiveness that this thread needs to source a wide range of folks who have experiences. even if they are at times painfully anecdotal or misplaced. Let's treat each other with dignity and respect. I'm an asshole too but there's a time to put that shit on check. And this is starting to teeter on the edge of a shitshow let's reel it back in. things are just starting to get interesting and hopefully productive.
 

Sam_Skunkman

"RESIN BREEDER"
Moderator
Veteran
One thing that would help besides common courtesy to everyone is to stay on the subject of the thread, to try and help to discover the core reason or more then one reasons that make dud Cannabis plants, how to ID duds, that can not veg right, flower properly, and can lose vigor and yield and potency and smell and resin, change phenotypical expression expression, and can spread their problems to other plants and just maybe how they can be saved from some problems?
IDing all pests like BM, CM, RM, nematodes helps, as the viruses, bacterial and fungal or other pathogens that can be mixed up with other serious pests or diseases that attack Cannabis and can create duds or dud like symtoms.
-SamS
 
Last edited:

mofeta

Member
Veteran
Yeah a more cooperative spirit would help this thread.

I also think that a more focused approach would be preferable to the current disorder.

It seems that the consensus now is that this thread is going to be about all the myriad various problems in clonally propagated lines, instead of the specific "Sour Dubb Dud" phenomenon. If this is the case, I would recommend a classification scheme to impose order on the process, with a mind towards speeding the results.

Criteria helpful in categorizing a particular problem could be suggested. Diagnostic tests could be suggested that would be appropriate for the category.

For example, say one of the categories was "phytophagus mites", or maybe more broadly, "very small hard to see bugs". Say the plant in question really seemed like it had BM or CM or something similar, but scoping revealed no visible infestation. "Maybe it's a bug that is too small for the scope, or it inhabits a part of the plant is not scopable?" you might think. Well, one simple way to find out if a plant is infested with little animals is to nuke it with powerful chemical pesticides and see what happens. There are even agents that are pretty effective against nematodes these days. Needless to say (I hope anyway), you would have to make sure that the test plants had no possibility of being inadvertantly consumed, and are destroyed as soon as results are evident.

Likewise, if the category were "Fungi and Allies" tests with powerful systemic fungicides could be revealing.

The so called "Plant Activators" of various types could be used to probe suspected infection by microorganisms. If Phytophthora or Pseudomonas, etc seems to be at work, use of these agents could help in the diagnostic process. The various categories of activators (SAR, ISR, etc.) could be used. I suspect the SAR inducers would be the most useful. Most (maybe all?) of these are salycylic acid analogs, like Acibenzolar-S-methyl (ASM) or probenazole. Actigard and Tiadinil are two well know commercial SAR inducers. And yes, aspirin is an excellent source of pure salycilic acid, the key player in the SAR system in plants. If you dissolve an aspirin in warm water, the acetylsalicylic acid rapidly decomposes into salycilic acid. ISR on the other hand is mediated by ethylene and jasmonic acid. Although of limited use, the antibiotics used on bacterial pathogens, like streptomycin and oxytetracycline, could be useful.

This method would rely heavily on exclusion, the ruling out of various causes.

Things can get kinda complicated, as Sam alluded to earlier. A problem can be a combination of a microorganism, vectored by a arthropod, enabled by specific cultural conditions. Or, it could be a synergistic effect of two or more separate pathogens.

Of course, the category of most interest to me would be "Extreme Phenotypic Plasticity Due to Epigenetic and/or Genetic Processes". Subcategories would be "Pathogen Induced" and "Innate" and "Heritable" or "Not Heritable" or "Reversable".
 

Storm Shadow

Well-known member
Veteran
spray your clones with foliar applications of Eugenol Oil...

I make a mix a Clove, Cinnamon, Eucalyptus.... I have found this to be very effective with this current problem... this is what made me want to try it out...

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23852671

J Sci Food Agric. 2014 Mar 15;94(4):677-82. doi: 10.1002/jsfa.6304. Epub 2013 Aug 9.
Eugenol enhances the resistance of tomato against tomato yellow leaf curl virus.

Abstract

BACKGROUND:

Tomato yellow leaf curl virus disease (TYLCVD) causes severe to economic losses in tomato crops in China. The control of TYLCVD is based primarily on the use of synthetic insecticide to control its vector whitefly (Bemisia tabaci). To look for an alternative method for disease control, we investigated the effect of eugenol on controlling TYLCVD. The potential of eugenol to trigger systemic acquired resistance (SAR) in tomato (Jiangsu 14) plants against TYLCV was also investigated.
RESULTS:

In greenhouse experiments, eugenol significantly reduced disease severity when applied as a foliar spray, thus demonstrating a systemic effect. The disease spread rapidly in control plants and by the end of the experiment almost all control plants showed severe symptoms. Eugenol also induced H₂O₂ accumulation in tomato plants. Activities of peroxidase (POD), polyphenol oxidase (PPO) and phenylalanine ammonia lyase (PAL) were significantly induced compared with those of control plants. As further consequences, increase of salicylic acid (SA) levels and expression of PR-1 proteins, a molecular marker of SAR in tomato, could also be observed.
CONCLUSION:

This is the first report of eugenol as an elicitor and its ability to suppress plant virus diseases under greenhouse conditions. It is suggested that eugenol has the potential to be an effective biocontrol agent against TYLCV in tomato plants.

http://www.ccsenet.org/journal/index.php/jas/article/viewFile/28912/17626

Induced Changes in Phenolic Composition of Wines After Foliar
Application of Eugenol and Guaiacol Solutions to Grapevines


Eugenol is a phenylpropanoid while guaiacol is a phenylpropanoid derived. Both compounds are also products​
of the secondary metabolism of the plants and they are present in grapes and wines. Phenylpropanoids are a large​
group of plant volatile compounds that play multiple roles in the structure, the plant protection against pathogens​
(Gang et al., 2001) and they have important effects on product qualities such as flavour and color (Dixon, Lamb,​
Masoud, Sewalt, & Paiva, 1996). Due to the fact that plant phenylpropanoid pathway is responsible for the​
synthesis of a wide variety of secondary metabolic compounds, including lignins, salicylates, coumarins,​
hydroxycinnamic amides, flavonoid phytoalexins, pigments, and antioxidants (Dixon et al., 1996), it could be​
suggested that any modification in the concentration of any compound could change the content of their products.​
In addition, it is also known that eugenol is a phenylpropanoid involved in defense mechanisms of the plants,​
whereas other phenolic compounds are related to the quality of wines. However, there is scarce literature about​
guaiacol implication in this role in plants.​
The above evidences suggest that exogenous eugenol and guaiacol solutions applied to the grapevines could​
affect the secondary metabolites content of grapes such as the phenolic compounds and, as a consequence, in the​
produced wines. So, the aim of this study was to examine how the foliar applications of exogenous eugenol and​
guaiacol solutions to grapevines affect to the content and evolution of the main phenolic compounds in wines,​
such as phenolic acids, stilbenes, flavanols, flavonols and anthocyanins.


http://en.cnki.com.cn/Article_en/CJFDTOTAL-NYZZ201201014.htm

Mode of Action of Natural Compound Eugenol on Tobacco Mosaic Virus Disease

The aim of this research was to study mode of action of eugenol on tobacco mosaic virus disease.[Methods] The preventive and therapeutic effect of Eugenol on tobacco mosaic virus disease was determined.The influence of eugenol on TMV virions was observed with electron microscope.The effect of ugenol on polymerization of TMV coat protein was also determined.[Results] The results showed that eugenol had a better preventive and therapeutic effect.The TMV virions treated with Eugenol showed ruptures and abnormality.Eugenol had an inhibition effect on polymerization of TMV coat protein.[Conclusions] Eugenol as a newly reported antiviral compound could be used to control plant virus diseases.

http://www.ccsenet.org/journal/index.php/jas/article/viewFile/26923/16923

Essential Oils and Latices as Novel Antiviral Agent Against Potato
Leaf Roll Virus and Analysis of Their Phytochemical Constituents
Responsible for Antiviral Activity

[FONT=TimesNewRoman,Bold][FONT=TimesNewRoman,Bold]
Abstract​
The present work was aimed to limit the practice of using pesticides in the managing program of the potato leaf​
roll disease on potato plants as the misuse of some pesticides had caused severe problems. The study was​
focused to find compounds nontoxic and safe for the biome. The antiviral activity of essential oils and latices​
tapped from different plants was investigated against potato leaf roll virus (PLRV). Essential oils from​
[FONT=TimesNewRoman,Italic][FONT=TimesNewRoman,Italic]
Eucalyptus citriodora​
[/FONT]​
[/FONT]​
leaves, Clove buds, and Fennel seeds were extracted. Latex of [FONT=TimesNewRoman,Italic][FONT=TimesNewRoman,Italic]Aloe vera, Calotropis[/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=TimesNewRoman,Italic][FONT=TimesNewRoman,Italic]
rocera​
[/FONT]​
[/FONT]​
and [FONT=TimesNewRoman,Italic][FONT=TimesNewRoman,Italic]Ficus elastic [/FONT][/FONT]were collected. Essential oil and latex spray solutions were prepared at 5 and 10%
concentration. All the sprayings were done at 7 days interval. Inhibition of viral replication was monitored by​
amplification of PLRV capsid protein gene and mRNA expression using RT-PCR technique. Results depicted​
inhibitory potential of all the tested essential oils and latices against PLRV infestation and also the effect was​
found concentration dependent. Our data showed that​
[FONT=TimesNewRoman,Italic][FONT=TimesNewRoman,Italic]Aloe vera [/FONT][/FONT]latex and clove essential oil caused maximum inhibition viral mRNA at 10% concentration. Qualitatively analyzed Tannin, Phlobactanins, Saponin, Flavonoids, Sterols and Terpens from essential oils and latices gave positive results in most of the oils and lesser content in plant latices. In the GC-MS analysis, high contents of some bioactive phytochemical compounds identified were Eugenol in Clove buds, Eucalyptol, D-Limonene and L-Limonene both in Eucalyptus leaves and Fennel seed oils and Fenchone in Fennel seeds. As this research work illustrates, there is innumerable potential of plants essential oils/latex waiting to be evaluated and exploited against genetically and functionally diverse plant viruses.


[/FONT]
[/FONT]
 

Storm Shadow

Well-known member
Veteran
Rotate that with Clarified Hydrophobic Extract of Neem Oil aka Triple Action Neem Oil 70%

Which can be found at any Lowes or Home Depot.... Duds will hate you for it
 

mofeta

Member
Veteran
Hi Storm Shadow

Man you are like a research machine! I'd like to have the time to digest it all, but I don't, it would be like the proverbial "drinking from a fire hose" lol.

Maybe you could summarize your thoughts on the subject for me? I have a couple of basic questions for you:

1) Do you think there is more than one cause of duds? It seems like you do as you have posted about several types of pathogen.

2)If it is only one cause, what is it?

3)If it is multiple causes, what are the most common ones? The rarest?

I would appreciate it if you took the time to answer my questions, and thank you in advance.

And off topic here, you lift, don't you? The recent discoveries that resistive training and larger muscle mass flips gene expression switches that basically make the body younger has made me decide to start lifting. I'm in pretty good shape already, but just do calisthenics. I haven't lifted for 35 years (high school). Would you mind if I PM you for some advice on equipment and technique? I would also like to know what you think about Mark Rippetoe.

Thanks again
mofeta
 

whatthe215

Active member
Veteran
DOES STORM SHADOW EVEN LIFT?!

thanks for all the info SS! Keep it coming, perhaps a small 'guide' on your treatment regimen would be cool.
 

mojave green

rockin in the free world
Veteran
sour sage dud from seed

sour sage dud from seed

here she is. 75 days flower. 4 days drying on the vine. no detectable pests/diseases/pathogens. branches are sturdy. all companion plants in the linked bucket system were/are healthy and produced solid results.
picture.php
picture.php
picture.php

compared to the other sour sage pheno i ran:
picture.php
picture.php
 

RetroGrow

Active member
Veteran
here she is. 75 days flower. 4 days drying on the vine. no detectable pests/diseases/pathogens. branches are sturdy. all companion plants in the linked bucket system were/are healthy and produced solid results.
View Image View Image View Image
compared to the other sour sage pheno i ran:
View Image View Image

So send the "dudded" one into a lab, and get it assayed, for the collective knowledge & benefit of all.
 

Sam_Skunkman

"RESIN BREEDER"
Moderator
Veteran
Mojave green, sour sage dud from seed.
Looks like root problems if I had to guess from the photo, how do the roots look? Normal or off color and less roots?

Send it to which lab? Anyone know of state Agriculture labs or private labs that will test for Cannabis pathogens?
The only ones I have used and worked with were in the Netherlands.
I am sure there are labs in California, Colorado, Washington, that will work with Cannabis, as well as maybe more states. Some labs may insist you are a local state resident, or a medical user, or a licensed state producer, whatever. If anyone has used a plant pathology lab that will work on Cannabis, let us know who they are and where they are. I will make a list of them all, by state and city.
Then we will start to get answers to all the questions.
-SamS
 

mofeta

Member
Veteran
Yeah that is for sure root stress. The severe epinasty and premature leaf senescence are from a massive excess of ethylene. When roots are under stress or damaged they produce a compound called ACC, that is translocated to the rest of the plant, where it is turned into ethylene. The most common cause of this is hypoxia.

It seems like I misunderstood the term "dud". I thought it described a specific phenomenon. Apparently it refers to a plant that doesn't produce right for any reason?
 

yortbogey

To Have More ... Desire Less
Veteran
OLYMPIA, WA - A Yakima laboratory is now state certified to test marijuana.
The lab is run by the testing company Analytical 360 and is the first to receive state authorization.

The state Liquor Control Board is setting up a highly regulated market requiring independent labs to test marijuana for potency and contaminants. Those finding will be submitted to the state as part of the process to track the drug from seed to sale. Labels will tell customers the potency of what they are buying.

Analytical 360 says it plans to open the 22,000-square-foot lab on Monday. The Liquor Control Board says several other companies will likely soon receive authorization.

Washington state and Colorado both legalized the use of recreational marijuana in 2012. Sales have already begun in Colorado but sales in Washington aren't expected to start until July.
 

Storm Shadow

Well-known member
Veteran
Mojave ...That is not the DUD we are all talking about

Those branches would have broken themselves off from the plant if it was the Witches Broom DuD
 

xxxstr8edgexxx

Active member
Veteran
I don't believe they test plants for plant pathogens only for human consumptive issues. Like pm or botryda. It's more for consumer oriented tests plant pathology labs are what we are looking for.
OLYMPIA, WA - A Yakima laboratory is now state certified to test marijuana.
The lab is run by the testing company Analytical 360 and is the first to receive state authorization.

The state Liquor Control Board is setting up a highly regulated market requiring independent labs to test marijuana for potency and contaminants. Those finding will be submitted to the state as part of the process to track the drug from seed to sale. Labels will tell customers the potency of what they are buying.

Analytical 360 says it plans to open the 22,000-square-foot lab on Monday. The Liquor Control Board says several other companies will likely soon receive authorization.

Washington state and Colorado both legalized the use of recreational marijuana in 2012. Sales have already begun in Colorado but sales in Washington aren't expected to start until July.
 

Storm Shadow

Well-known member
Veteran
Hi Storm Shadow

Man you are like a research machine! I'd like to have the time to digest it all, but I don't, it would be like the proverbial "drinking from a fire hose" lol.

Maybe you could summarize your thoughts on the subject for me? I have a couple of basic questions for you:

1) Do you think there is more than one cause of duds? It seems like you do as you have posted about several types of pathogen.

I think this problem was caused by Hemp Russet Mites, A lot of people were able to ID Broad Mites eggs very easy...but there were many more smooth round eggs people assumed were cyclamen mites... I think plants once infected, the problem can be spread through Fungus Gnats and dead roots

2)If it is only one cause, what is it?
I have seen all the same symptoms of Asters Yellow and Witches Broom pop in a few different rooms, different locations, different genetics etc..

I think one of the best detections from early on..... even b4 the waxy skinny leaf look in Veg, is root mass.. most DUDS, not all....have weak root systems.... which is why for a minute I thought it might be Gall Mites since they are from the same family as Russets and can also produce Virus related problems....

All in all... I think its a Phytoplasma issue and it a plan based around Systemic Acquired Resistance.. Also You have to make sure you have Zero Bugs of any sort...

Its why Kontos is superior to any product on the market, The ONLY TRUE SYSTEMIC MICRO MITE KILLER, it takes a couple of weeks to work.... these mites are so small that it is impossible to say you are clean are not... but if you rotate chemicals and mix in a lot of botanicals you will be good to go..

I have pics on here of a 24 lighter with Tahoe OG from Progressive Options... I used Triple Action Neem /Spinosad combo for a few weeks in veg b4 the flip....not 1 DUD..all super dank OG Kush Stank...

Same room next round... did Green Crack...no neem oil this round...just Pylon... fuck.... 211 duds and 4 normal plants..

I let them veg for 2 months to try and see if they would snap out of their funk... and nada... no root systems in the duds... and branches a white fly could snap if it landed on it...

Something is going on in the root zone for sure... you can have a plant that is all dank say 5 branches of just pure bomb...then one branch will be complete hay... or it can be vice versa... 5 branches of Hay and one Dank... crazy shit


3)If it is multiple causes, what are the most common ones? The rarest?

I would appreciate it if you took the time to answer my questions, and thank you in advance.

And off topic here, you lift, don't you? The recent discoveries that resistive training and larger muscle mass flips gene expression switches that basically make the body younger has made me decide to start lifting. I'm in pretty good shape already, but just do calisthenics. I haven't lifted for 35 years (high school). Would you mind if I PM you for some advice on equipment and technique? I would also like to know what you think about Mark Rippetoe.

Im 5'11 210 9% body fat .. play basketball 3-4 days a week...and lift weights 4 days a week... mon/tues...thurs/Friday...One of my best friends online is Patrick Arnold... He is the Sam the Skunkman of the Steroid/Bodybuilding world... If you can read some of his articles .. you would love it... My Buddy got drafted by the Texans many years ago...and still plays for them... Andre Johnson... anyways... he is a monster beast.... and This manual is what was handed to him the first day after being drafted..
http://assets.houstontexans.com/assets/fanzone/Texans strength manual.pdf

It seriously shits on all the bro science out there about working out


Thanks again
mofeta

Also, if you look at a lot of the post where Spurr and Myself are chopping it up about PGR's... you can get some great insight on how to help boost your plants ability to ward off all these ugly problems
 
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