Dud Identification Collective Knowledge.

[stasis]

Silliest thread continues unabated. Great Arcane info not related to what You are fighting..

You should hear the California Dispensaries blame twisted leaves etc., on TMV, and other Viruses. Then I produce a 60x scope, and show 'em what the problem is. We see moltings of the Broads, and eggs. The insects themselves are very difficult to see unless One knows what One is looking for.

OK, back to the contentiousness and dealing out of negative rep to anyone who dissents - in This soon to be closed regularly scheduled Argument. I have never received Neg Rep until this nasty thread - in years.

I chuckle. By extreme Due diligence, and study right here on IC - I got rid of a roomful of Duds. To get a great and sticky result. Was sure I was done for.

 

[Storm Shadow]

Sam, no suprise here..... has been the only person who has made any sense ...keyword people WITCHES BROOM aka PHYTOPLASMA

This has nothing to do with the sour dub, or genetics... Microorganisms Are The Issue

 

[dank.frank]

Yeah I don't think it has anything to do with the genetics either - I was just clarifying for Mofeta.

The only way it would be genetic is if what Chimera was talking about in the link that Mofeta provided:

https://www.icmag.com/ic/showpost.php?p=4610321&postcount=12



dank.Frank

 

[gaiusmarius]

Silliest thread continues unabated. Great Arcane info not related to what You are fighting..

You should hear the California Dispensaries blame twisted leaves etc., on TMV, and other Viruses. Then I produce a 60x scope, and show 'em what the problem is. We see moltings of the Broads, and eggs. The insects themselves are very difficult to see unless One knows what One is looking for.

OK, back to the contentiousness and dealing out of negative rep to anyone who dissents - in This soon to be closed regularly scheduled Argument. I have never received Neg Rep until this nasty thread - in years.

I chuckle. By extreme Due diligence, and study right here on IC - I got rid of a roomful of Duds. To get a great and sticky result. Was sure I was done for.

with the greatest of respect i was inclined to neg rep you myself in this thread. whats silly about this thread? why do you not add your info without the snide comments? you are usually not so grumpy, how about laying it out for people where they are wrong and why you think so or know so. it's not really helpful to say; oh you are all not getting it, i know how to take care of this, why dont you all too?

would be much more helpful to explain yourself. not everyone here is familiar with these issues, but with people chiming in about their knowledge on this we will slowly get the whole picture. thats the whole point. get the collective experience of all the growers here and use it to our advantage. so instead of dissing why not get explaining and adding to the knowledge base on this subject. coming to the right answer is a process of elimination in these situations, so even wrong theories are not a loss as they can be checked off as wrong that way.

 

[high life 45]

Loving all the contribution from various members here. No matter what your view is, a contribution is a contribution.

Silliest thread continues unabated. Great Arcane info not related to what You are fighting..

I have never received Neg Rep until this nasty thread - in years.

Still waiting for you share something, hopefully something we dont know about bms. Or just to share something.

Alot of us are absorbing new info, the only thing nasty about this thread, besides your view on it, is the nasty pathogens that are being discussed.

Take a long hard look at these pic and PLEASE tell me how you think bms caused this?

Nodeless branches/witches broom like growth.

Notice that in the years of the broad mite epidemic which so many of us have had to deal with, that not one person has even mentioned seeing growth like this before. Not one person.

On the bright side, I got some samples off with an old friend. No promises on the labs acceptance of the sample. Still waiting to hear back from a few other potential lab avenues.

Either way I will SHARE the results, or lack there of.

 

[Backyard Farmer]

Endophytic refers to a fungi or bacteria that for a time can lay dormant inside the plant and arise at a later time.

Systemic refers to the ability to travel through the vascular system of the plant

Big up

 

[Cep]

@Dankfrank
Endophyte is a broad term that is commonly used for symbiotic organisms i.e. mycorrhizal fungi because they actually penetrate cells of plants. The term is broad though and because pathogens also live within plant cells they can be endophytes.

Eventually I found this paper:

Genetic and Epigenetic Effects of Plant–Pathogen Interactions: An Evolutionary Perspective

This is an absolute fucking gem of a paper. I was going to quote a few especially tasty nuggets from it as a teaser, but the whole thing is just so excellent that I would end up just c&p the fulltext! lol!

Potentially permanent genetic changes or a fungal pathogen has infected the plant up to the point where tissue is cut for a clone.

(see Epigenetic Control of Effector Gene Expression in the Plant Pathogenic Fungus Leptosphaeria maculans) breaking its "dormancy", and causing it to (through various mechanisms) twist the "control dials" on the epigenome of the pot clone, in ways that are not normally encountered in typical plant growth. This would result in transmissible, heritable irregularities that could end up being solidified in the genome, by both inheritance of somatic mutation and homologous recombination.

GG4 inheriting a dudding trait from sour dubb is possible. I think we would see duds all over the place if that were the case and not just a few growers. In the case of dormant pathogens its possible that you can have a healthy plant holding them at bay but when you take a clone, then mistreat it the pathogen takes the upper hand. I'm sure that the 4 days my gg4 cut spent in a box didn't help it any...

Personally I think that if these dud problems are not pathogen related, they are a very extreme example of a recessive SOUR phenotype. Sour diesel is one of the only plants I've ever had that I have grown mother and clone out side by side and seen different phenotypical expressions from them. One typical sour diesel, the other a more sandlewoody, spicy, long spear cola growing pheno. The smell and flavor are almost non existent comparatively and I would consider that representation a "dud", but it occurred side by side with other healthy versions of the same clone.... so is the dud phenomenon a recessive sour trait? if so it can be grown out of the way tom and Sam suggested.

What you are describing is possibly phenotypic plasticity. For example I've run the same plant in coco, soil inside, and soil outside and each treatment is very different. A NYC Diesel plant thrived and absolutely reeked in a coco set up but its structure and smell were very different outside.

 

[Storm Shadow]

Lets keep this thread on topic... here is more info on the problem we are all identifying as "DUD"

http://apsjournals.apsnet.org/doi/abs/10.1094/PDIS-91-2-0227C

February 2007, Volume 91, Number 2
Page 227

http://dx.doi.org/10.1094/PDIS-91-2-0227C

Disease Notes
First Report of Witches'-Broom Disease in a Cannabis spp. in China and Its Association with a Phytoplasma of Elm Yellows Group (16SrV)

Y. Zhao, Q. Sun, R. E. Davis, and I.-M. Lee, Molecular Plant Pathology Laboratory, ARS-USDA, Beltsville, MD 20705; and Q. Liu, Shandong Institute of Pomology, Taian, P.R. China, 271000


Hemp fiber plants (Cannabis spp.) spread naturally in almost every climate zone in China and have a long history of cultivation in the country (1). While hemp stalks provide high-quality fibers for making ropes, clothes, and paper products, hemp seeds are a rich source of edible oil. During the summer of 2004, a disease characterized by witches'-broom symptoms was observed in wild hemp fiber plants growing in suburban Taian, Shandong, China. The diseased plants developed clusters of highly proliferating branches with much shortened internodes and leaves on the affected branches were significantly reduced in size. Phytoplasma infection was suspected in this hemp fiber witches'-broom (HFWB) disease because of the typical symptoms and because of its geographic location where other phytoplasmal diseases such as jujube witches'-broom (JWB), paulownia witches'-broom (PaWB), paper mulberry witches'-broom (PMWB), and Chinese wingnut witches'-broom (CWWB) diseases were previously reported (3,4). Total DNA was extracted from leaves of four diseased and four nearby healthy looking hemp fiber plants. Nested PCR were carried out on the DNA samples using phytoplasma universal 16S rDNA primers (P1A/16S-SR and R16F2n/R16R2) (2). Results revealed that all examined diseased plants were infected by phytoplasma, whereas nearby healthy looking plants were phytoplasma free. Subsequent restriction fragment length polymorphism (RFLP) analysis of the PCR-amplified 1.25-kb 16S rDNA R16F2n/R16R2 fragment indicated that the phytoplasma associated with HFWB disease belongs to subgroup 16SrV-B of the elm yellows (EY) phytoplasma group. Nucleotide sequence analysis of the cloned HFWB phytoplasma partial rRNA operon (GenBank Accession No. EF029092), spanning a near full-length 16S rRNA gene and a partial 16S-23S rRNA intergenic spacer, suggested that HFWB phytoplasma is most closely related to JWB and PMWB phytoplasmas, both members of subgroup16SrV-B. To further characterize the HFWB phytoplasma, a genomic segment covering full-length ribosomal protein genes rplV and rpsC was PCR-amplified using primer pair rp(V)F1A/rp(V)R1A (2), cloned, and sequenced (GenBank Accession No. EF029093). The nucleotide sequence of the HFWB phytoplasma rplV and rpsC locus is nearly identical (99.9%) to that of JWB phytoplasma. To our knowledge, this is the first report of a phytoplasmal disease in Cannabis spp. Since HFWB and JWB phytoplasmas share extremely high sequence identity and share the same eco-geographic location, further investigation is warranted to determine whether these two phytoplasmas are actually one species that can infect both plants, an issue having important implications in managing both diseases.

References: (1) S. Hong and R. C. Clarke. J. Int. Hemp Assoc. 3:55, 1996. (2) I. M. Lee et al. Int. J. Syst. Evol. Microbiol. 54:337, 2004. (3) Q. Liu et al. Plant Dis. 88:770, 2004. (4) Q. Liu et al. Plant Dis. 89:529, 2005.

 

[Storm Shadow]

http://scialert.net/abstract/?doi=ppj.2011.161.167

Plant Pathology Journal Year: 2011 | Volume: 10 | Issue: 4 | Page No.: 161-167
DOI: 10.3923/ppj.2011.161.167

Characterization of Stolbur (16SrXII) Group Phytoplasmas Associated with Cannabis sativa Witches'-broom Disease in Iran Fereshteh Vali Sichani, Masoud Bahar and Leila Zirak
Abstract: A new disease of hemp plants characterized by witches'-brooms and stunting symptoms was appeared in Yazd province in the centre of Iran. Phytoplasma infections were detected in symptomatic hemps by polymerase chain reaction (PCR) amplifications using phytoplasma universal primer pair P1/P7 followed by R16F2n/R16R2 in nested PCR. Restriction fragments length polymorphism (RFLP) analysis results using CfoI restriction enzyme confirmed that the hemp witches'-broom phytoplasma isolates are related to stolbur group. Also, virtual RFLP analysis revealed that hemp witches'-broom phyutoplasmas in Iran are different from members of other 16SrXII subgroups. Sequence analysis of partial 16S rRNA gene indicated that the phytoplasmas associated with hemp in Iran shared high similarity with ‘Candidatus Phytoplasma solani’ and other phytoplasmas related to stolbur group. This research is the first report of hemp infection with phytoplasmas related to stolbur group.

 

[Storm Shadow]

http://www.degruyter.com/view/j/jppr.2014.54.issue-1/jppr-2014-0001/jppr-2014-0001.xml

Characterization of Phytoplasmas Related to Aster Yellows Group Infecting Annual Plants in Iran, Based on the Studies of 16S rRNA and RP Genes


Fereshteh Vali Sichani1 / Masoud Bahar1 / Leila Zirak1
1Division of Plant Pathology, Department of Plant Protection, College of Agriculture, Isfahan University of Technology, 84156, Isfahan, Iran

Abstract

Several annual field crops, vegetables, ornamentals, oilseed crops, and weeds showing phytoplasma diseases symptoms were collected to detect phytoplasmas related to ‘Candidatus Phytoplasma asteris’. The collecting was done in the central regions of Iran. For general detection of phytoplasmas, 16S rRNA gene fragments were amplified using phytoplasma universal primer pair P1/P7 in polymerase chain reaction (PCR) followed by primer pair R16F2n/R16R2 in nested PCR. Then, for finer detection of phytoplasmas related to ‘Ca. P. asteris’, DNA samples were used to extend the rp and tuf gene fragments by PCR using aster yellows group specific primer pairs rp(I)F1A/rp(I)R1A and fTufAy/rTufAy, respectively. Restriction fragment lenght polymorphism (RFLP) analysis of rp gene fragments using digestion with AluI, MseI, and Tsp509I restriction enzymes indicated that aster yellows group related phytoplasmas in these Iranian regions, belong to rpI-B subgroups. Sequence analysis of partial 16S rRNA and rp genes from representative phytoplasma isolates confirmed the RFLP results. This research is the first report of annual plants infected with phytoplasmas related to subgroup rpI-B in Iran.

 

[Storm Shadow]

http://www.climatologynews.com/link...=Crop parasite may spread with global warming

Crop parasite may spread with global warming

Scientists from the John Innes Centre on Norwich Research Park have shed new light on a plant pathogen that causes yield losses in crops worldwide.
Global warming could increase the threat from leaf hoppers – tiny sap-sucking, highly mobile and opportunistic agricultural pests.
Certain species can acquire and transmit plant pathogens including viruses and phytoplasmas, which are small bacteria. They cause severe yield losses to sugar beet, oil-seed crops, fruit trees, vegetables, maize and grapevine among other crops.
Dr Saskia Hogenhout and her team focused on a phytoplasma strain called Aster Yellows Witches’ Broom, isolated from infected lettuce fields in North America. It causes deformity in plants and prevents flower formation so the plant does not produce seed, becoming sterile.
“It is timely to better understand phytoplasmas as they are sensitive to cold and could spread to new areas as temperatures rise through climate change,” said Dr Hogenhout.
Aster yellows phytoplasmas and other phytoplasmas have become an increasing problem in northern Europe, because the insect vectors are able migrate northwards with rising temperatures.
Infected plants grow clusters of multiple stems which can look like a witches’ broom or in trees like a bird’s nest. This makes them more attractive to insects for egg-laying, increasing the number of insects that can spread the parasite further.
As the phytoplasma needs both the leafhopper and the plant host to stay alive it cannot be maintained independently, making it difficult to study. Fortunately the John Innes Centre is home to its own insectary for research on crop pests.
Leafhoppers are exotic plant disease vectors so were kept under quarantine. They are also very active, so carbon dioxide was used to temporarily put them to sleep to move them onto the plants used in the experiment.
It was already known that pathogens can alter their hosts, for example malaria parasites can make humans more attractive to mosquitoes, but how they do it has remained a mystery. This study is the first time that scientists have identified a specific molecule from a parasite that manipulates plant development to the advantage of the insect host.
“Our findings show how this pathogen molecule can reach beyond its host to alter a third organism,” said Dr Hogenhout.
The scientists sequenced and examined the genome of the witches broom phytoplasma and identified 56 candidate molecules, called effector proteins, which could be key to this complex biological interaction.
They found that a protein effector SAP11 reduces the production of a defence hormone in the plant that is used against the leafhopper. As a consequence, leafhoppers reared on plants infected with witches broom laid more eggs and produced more offspring.
The higher reproductive rate is probably matched by a similar increased rate in transmission of the witches broom phytoplasma by leafhoppers to other plants.
“Phytoplasmas that can enhance egg-laying and offspring numbers in leafhoppers are likely to have a competitive advantage,” said Dr Hogenhout.
“If we can interfere with these processes, then plants could become more resistant.”
The research was funded by the Biotechnology and Biological Sciences Research Council (BBSRC) and The Gatsby Charitable Foundation.
For many phytoplasmas, the insect vectors have not been identified so it is not understood how they spread. Dr Hogenhout is a taking part in and EU-funded project to control phytoplasma epidemics in Europe.
She and her EU research colleagues will sequence the genomes of multiple phytoplasmas in collaboration with The Genome Analysis Centre on Norwich Research Park. This information will help with the detection and identification of phytoplasmas in insect vectors and plants.

 

[Storm Shadow]

http://iijfmt.indianjournals.com/ijor.aspx?target=ijor:ijsr1&volume=2&issue=4&article=024

Witche's Broom and Phyllody Like Symptoms of Diseases in Acalypha indica L. and Cannabis sativa L.- A New Report from Champaran, North Bihar

During the survey of aromatic and essential oil plants of Champaran, We recorded witche's broom and phyllody like symptoms of diseases in two plants - Acalypha indica (Euphorbiaceae) and Cannabis sativa (Cannabinaceac). Acalypha indica exhibited severe symptoms of witche's broom with numerous leaves ofreduced size, shortening ofinternodes and emergence of several branches from a single point, giving appearance of witche's broom. In Cannabis sativa both phyllody and witche's broom symptoms were noted, where flowers of apical region of branches were highly reduced and were of sterile nature, and in most of the flowers, floral parts were converted into green and leafy structures. Causal organism of these diseases has recently been known and it is prokaryotic Phytoplasma, which lacks cell wall. The detection of Phytoplasma in vitro is difficult, however, PCR technique recently developed by molecular biologists is an unique tool for its identification and confirmation. Recently, near about 600 plant species have been reported, affected by Phytoplasma.

 

[Storm Shadow]

No cure for this problem.... just hardcore sanitation practices

As the world gets smaller... problems will get bigger

 

[Cep]

^^^Nice. Not only journals but cannabis specifically in the study. If my cut shows this growth I'll submit a sample to any lab that will take it and do the appropriate pcr. It might take a few months.

Have you or do you know any anyone who has submitted any samples Storm Shadow?

 

[whatthe215]

damn I was waiting for Storm to weigh in. I'm gonna call the lab that has my samples and ask them to run tests for these phytoplasma.

Thanks for finally sharing SS.

Hey HL45, check this out from the Wikipedia article on Phytoplasmas:

"A common symptom caused by phytoplasma infection is phyllody, the production of leaf-like structures in place of flowers. Evidence suggests that the phytoplasma downregulates a gene involved in petal formation (AP3 and its orthologues) and genes involved in the maintenance of the apical meristem (Wus and CLV1)"

 

[Sam_Skunkman]

Check out my post #23 in this thread for bacterial Witches Broom references.
Anyone seen this? With or without fusarium or BM, CM, RM? Maybe with a virus?
I would not be surprised to find more then one pathogen and or pests. At least on some real problem duds.
-SamS

 

[xxxstr8edgexxx]

No cure for this problem.... just hardcore sanitation practices

As the world gets smaller... problems will get bigger

have you heard of anyone trying tissue culture of the isolated meristem cells as they emerge (microtip tissue culture as opposed to normal tissue culture). id be surprised if that wasnt the answer. it is the standard for virus and misc pathogen elimination in strawberries rasberries blackberries etc.

 

[SourSmoke]

My Experiences.

My Experiences.

[Ack how do I format with paragraphs?] I have a few data points to add in which I think might be helpful. This is sort of a drawn out explanation of my experience, which probably mirrors a lot of you, feel free to skip to the end for what I think is an important point. Sour Dub used to dud out on me occasionally just like everyone else. There would be one or two in the mix out of a tray. Eventually it seemed the dud phenomenon worked its way out. For quite a long time I was completely dud free with strong beautiful dub. I eventually picked up broad mites, root aphids, and ??? from an individual and entered the 7th level of dud hell. After dealing with the root aphids and BM every sour dub variant that I had was now dudding out on me. adub, dubtech7, odub, and sour dub... all consistently duds. Even with no BM present. [It's interesting to note that the original dudding sour dubs always looked like healthy plants to me but these new round of duds post BM + ??? now mostly had leaves with a speckled look and hooked leaves] - I kind of suspected the BM were not completely gone even though I couldn't find any on the scope and was not seeing the telltale fried pistols or leaves. That is when I thought some sort of residual toxin was responsible. I started treating moms with aspirin per retro's suggestion. I eventually discovered a fast moving microscopic mite in the coco by placing potato slices on top of my pots over night. This brought the mite to the surface and if you stared at the potato long enough you could barely make out a little pin head size specks buzzing around. I was about ready to throw in the towel and chop all moms and start over but decided to fight a bit longer. I drenched all my mother's coco using Eclipse's lower dose orthene/riptide mixture. My mothers were about at the end of their rope but the orthene/riptide treatment seems to have them looking healthy again. I culled any mom with the mottled leaf look. I have not flowered any of the moms yet that seemed to have bounced back. A FEW IMPORTANT POINTS: While I was growing out sour dub duds post BM I was taking cuts from multiple dub mothers in the same tent sharing the same ebb/flow res. I consistently was have 25% of the dub turn out smashing and suspected there might be one mother that had never been infected. I eventually localized that mother and culled the others. It has continued to put out 100% stellar dub. I think perhaps the aspirin has helped it to push out better than I have ever seen. So if in fact we are dealing with some sort of easily transmittable bacterial infection of the root zone, that one particular Dub mom would have also received the same disease in the tent. It's odd. In regards to this being something primarily effecting the double genetic line. I had a few other non sour moms for sure effected by the BM + ???, which never dudded out. Felt nice to write it all out. Thanks for reading.

 

[whatthe215]

^^^^ google image search Bulb mites. is that what you had?

anyone think bulb mites might be involved? 2 hydroshops told me they had bulb mites coming in with their rockwool and it was causing a slow drop in yield over the course of a year for a few RW grower friends of theirs, until they figure out it was bulb mites and treated with Pylon drenches.

 

[Cep]

Check out my post #23 in this thread for bacterial Witches Broom references.
Anyone seen this? With or without fusarium or BM, CM, RM? Maybe with a virus?
I would not be surprised to find more then one pathogen and or pests. At least on some real problem duds.
-SamS

Sorry Sam, I missed that somehow. I wonder if, given the longer internode spacing, the plants in high life's pics are infected. Maybe the difference in light intensity on the plant in your pic?