Organic Magnesium Amendments? What Are You Guys Using?

[who dat is]

Forgive my ignorance but I've never known and always wondered how Epsom Salts are ok to use with organic living soil? Just the fact that it has salts in the name raises a red flag for me. Can somebody explain to me or point me in the right direction as to how this doesn't affect the microherd and beneficials? *Edit* Could somebody also elaborate on using dandelions? I have them popping up all over the damn yard and the thought that they could be turned into something beneficial for my plants is intriguing.

Thanks and sorry if I'm thread jacking.

 

[JohnathanDoe]

Forgive my ignorance but I've never known and always wondered how Epsom Salts are ok to use with organic living soil? Just the fact that it has salts in the name raises a red flag for me. Can somebody explain to me or point me in the right direction as to how this doesn't affect the microherd and beneficials? *Edit* Could somebody also elaborate on using dandelions? I have them popping up all over the damn yard and the thought that they could be turned into something beneficial for my plants is intriguing.

Thanks and sorry if I'm thread jacking.

If I'm understanding things correctly(someone let me know if I'm not), it's a "salt" due to it's composition and being an ion that dissolves in water? The name used to raise a red flag for me to, but then I kept reading When you looks at it as what it is, which is Mg,S, and O, it seems a little easer digest for me personally. In looking at it like this, I get why it doesn't harm the microherd. And the elements are used in so many different processes at the cellular level, that I can't help but to think of it as a something that could only be good, but in moderation, as it dehydrates cells.

It's also acceptable for use in organics in certain situations, like when you notice a Mg. def. Tho I've read it's not acceptable to use when you don't have one? Confusing.

But thanks for adding to the discussion.
I'm looking for help in all forms But dandelions?
There's gotta be a thread for that haha
Just kidding, someone mentioned it earlier.
I can't tell you how to use dandelions sorry

 

[Gelado`]

Originally epsom salts were naturally mined--nowadays it is simply synthesized. Exactly the same chemical either way; magnesium sulfate, and once dissolved in water, magnesium and sulfate (both common in nature). Our own bodies are full of natural salts in solution.

 

[who dat is]

Originally epsom salts were naturally mined--nowadays it is simply synthesized. Exactly the same chemical either way; magnesium sulfate, and once dissolved in water, magnesium and sulfate (both common in nature). Our own bodies are full of natural salts in solution.

So what effect do these minerals have on the microherd?

 

[JohnathanDoe]

LOL...it seems that Kelp may have traces of Mg, but there appears to be more Mg in Fossil Shell Flour (food grade DE), Sea-90 (Sea Minerals) and rock dust (earth minerals).

Maxicrop Kelp 0.213%
Neptune Kelp 0.5-1% (hmmm odd, different #s for the same kelp...just different distributors)
GrowMore Seaweed Extract 0.04-0.073%
Perma-Guard Fossil Shell Flour 0.3618%
Agrowinn Rock Dust 1.79%``
Ocean Water 3.91%
Sea-90 (sea minerals) 1.44%

IMHO, these are not significant sources for Mg...but when some of these are used together...they do add to the total number of Mg.

BTW, one major drawback with Kelp Meal is the breakdown time and it consumes Nitrogen. After 28 days from application, Kelp Meal will have only decomposed 14% while consuming 6% of it's Nitrogen. Now compared to Seaweed Extracts--which after 28 days is 38% decomposed/breakdown and consumed 0% Nitrogen (nor was any provided). Hmmm, at 28 days which do I want in my garden? Something that is 14% decomposed vs 38% and that provided -6% vs 0% Nitrogen. Hmmm, not rocket science for me.

Now before all the Kelp Meal fanatics neg rep me...I am not saying Kelp Meal is bad, just saying in my garden and the benefits I seek from Ascophyllum nodosum seaweed...Seaweed Extracts work better for me; I obtain faster results, less Nitrogen is consumed, and the liquid form is much cheaper/affordable than the meal variety. As to quality--I have seen nothing to persuade me that one variety is superior over the other; both provide similar benefits.

Cheers!

No Mg for me in the DE bud.
Within mine is only "Silica, amorphous, Diatomaceous Earth (uncalcined)".
Here's a link to the data sheet

http://milkyspore.com/Labels%20and%20MSDS/Insect%20Dust/mdiatomaceous.pdf

 

[Gelado`]

Both Mg and sulfate ions are already present in healthy soil. In tiny doses? Probably nothing.

 

[JohnathanDoe]

So what effect do these minerals have on the microherd?

Not sure what answer you're looking for. Maybe be a little more specific and someone can help you.

 

[who dat is]

Both Mg and sulfate ions are already present in healthy soil. In tiny doses? Probably nothing.

Not sure what answer you're looking for. Maybe be a little more specific and someone can help you.

I think Gelado answered it even thought it sounds like speculation. My main concern with using something like that would be that it would have a negative impact on the beneficial microbes and fungi, that's what I meant by "microherd". In an organic living soil system you are feeding the microherd and not the plant directly. If something were to negatively impact the beneficials the efficiency of the soil system would go out the window and your plants would suffer. That is why you can't (or at least shouldn't) mix synthetics and organics. You are just shooting yourself in the foot in that scenario. Not saying that that is the case with epsom salts but that is what I'm trying to determine.

Thanks

 

[JohnathanDoe]

I think Gelado answered it even thought it sounds like speculation. My main concern with using something like that would be that it would have a negative impact on the beneficial microbes and fungi, that's what I meant by "microherd". In an organic living soil system you are feeding the microherd and not the plant directly. If something were to negatively impact the beneficials the efficiency of the soil system would go out the window and your plants would suffer. That is why you can't (or at least shouldn't) mix synthetics and organics. You are just shooting yourself in the foot in that scenario. Not saying that that is the case with epsom salts but that is what I'm trying to determine.

Thanks

Ok i see.
Once the Epsom Salt is dissolved, it's Mg and SO4.
I'm looking at these ions and thinking that my soil will adsorb the Mg and the SO4 will react with something else in the soil.
I get what you're saying tho, becuase I've added everything else to my soil thinking to feed the micros as well.
This doesn't seem to be one of those things. It's something that will be in the ionic form once dissolved, rather than needed to be processed by micros, if that helps.
At least thats how I'm seeing in.
Hopefully someone who knows for certain can add to this for us.

Thanks

 

[Gelado`]

Gypsum is calcium sulfate...nobody freaks out about that in organic soil. Just because it's a synthetic chemical, it doesn't mean it will kill your microherd--in solution it is identical to mag sulfate from any other source. The only issue from an environmental standpoint is how MgS04 is manufactured.

 

[JohnathanDoe]

Gypsum is calcium sulfate...nobody freaks out about that in organic soil. Just because it's a synthetic chemical, it doesn't mean it will kill your microherd--in solution it is identical to mag sulfate from any other source. The only issue from an environmental standpoint is how MgS04 is manufactured.

Good post thanks Something I hadn't thought about

 

[EclipseFour20]

No Mg for me in the DE bud.
Within mine is only "Silica, amorphous, Diatomaceous Earth (uncalcined)".
Here's a link to the data sheet

http://milkyspore.com/Labels%20and%20MSDS/Insect%20Dust/mdiatomaceous.pdf

Johnny, your DE has Mg (whether you want it or not...lol).

See the analysis of Perma-Guard's Fossil Shell Flour in the attached pdf file. Notice there is 0.6% MgO by weight. To convert MgO to Mg you multiply MgO by 0.603....hence my conclusion that Fossil Shell Flour has 0.3618% Mg (0.6 x 0.603). Those MSDS are not the most accurate documents...gotta look at the lab analysis.

Cheers man!

BTW...I also attached Perma-Guard's MSDS...not too enlightening either.
AND...the third pdf is a more detail Analysis of Perma-Guard's FSF measuring 28 elements...this chemical analysis (not by weight) indicates Mg to be 0.15315%...and Silicon to be 0.217117%.

 

[JohnathanDoe]

Hello all,

Just wanted to say for the last time, thank you all for your help and input!
In the end I decided to go with an all-purpose 4-4-4 organic fert with a little Ca/Mg within, at 1/2cup per cu ft, vs. the Epsom Salt alone.
I told myself that it would be better to add something with a little bit of everything, versus the MGSO4.
But thanks for all your time and input.
See you all around the place!

 

[Granger2]

Most Gypsum is mined. -granger

 

[Gelado`]

Yup, but mined or not it's the same thing once it hits water! The OP was worried about MgSO4 hurting his microflora. Mined or synthetic doesn't make an iota of difference to your plants when talking about simple sulfate salts.

 

[Coba]

the OP wanted reassurance that using Epsom Salt was OK for organic gardening. yes, it is ... in an oopss i dun it again sorta way organic amendment ...

what real organic farmers use for Mg was clearly illustrated by Lost, Backyard and Verdant Green.

I hope your garden flourishes JD.

Respect

 

[Gelado`]

Cute, Coba, but in my case it is THE way to get my Mg without excess Ca (dolomite lime, which I can't even get) or K (KMag, kelp, molasses) in organic coco indoors. No pH worries either. I could just grow in peat, but coco's a lot better for the environment since it's a waste product, cheaper to transport (dry bricks) and it provides great aeration to boot!

In my case epsom salts are not a band aid...I planned on using them weekly from the very start of this cycle and it's working a treat.

 

[JohnathanDoe]

Thanks for all your help gentlemen

 

[JuniorDavis]

Crazy question but what if I boiled spinach and used the green liquid from boiling it (after straining).

It says spinach boiled (180g) has 157mg magnesium. I believe the dosage would be a lot lower in the liquid compared to the food.

I understand it would be alkaline (I only use poland spring water as my water base for feeding my ladies) but with the GO vegan food I don't adjust PH.

I feel the Calcium is the same in humans as the plants. Too much Calcium you get stunted growth.

The magnesium is so important for the plant to absorbed the nutrients.

Another crazy question is what if I grind up magnesium malate pill and used that?

 

[CaliGabe]

I feel the Calcium is the same in humans as the plants. Too much Calcium you get stunted growth.

Another crazy question is what if I grind up magnesium malate pill and used that?

One of the bigger problems I've seen with growers, at least those working with soil blends, compost and testing is excess K which will interfere with Ca uptake.

Not so crazy a question. If you look at Albion Labs they offer amino acid chelates for use in human and plant nutrition. Don't know how readily available a malate is though.