PH problems

[coxnox]

Hi,

i get a problem with my drain ph, since i switched for the bloom AB (canna cogr) i get the ph who get allways down(for exemple i water my plants at 6 and not even a week later i get the drain PH at 5 or even less), and of course the drain EC get up.

So i did change my phosphoric acid for nitric acid as canna did explain, and it did work, my drain ph was going up, but now i get the opposite, i can water my plants at PH5.5 and get the drain a PH6.5 in less than a week.

My water is high alkanality, and can be called hard water, but i use hard water nutes so i really don't understand why it doesn't work as it should.

Does anybody know what can i do to keep my PH of the substrat stable ?

ps: i allready read allmost every thread with hard water problems, and the only answer i found is a RO system, but i can't use one here so i need another solution.

 

[Midwest Toker]

Are your plants showing problems or are you just over thinking the drain ph should be the same as your nutrient solution? In 6 years of using coco I have never checked my run-off ph. My water is hard also 350ppm (80% calcium carbonate,20% ferrous iron)and a ph of 7.8. It takes 5ml of gh ph down to get my water to a ph 6.5 after adding nutes it bring it down to between 5.8- 6.2 .
I have never used canna coco or nute line up so I really can't tell you anything about how it acts with your water,

 

[coxnox]

Of course they show signs, you clearly see that they allmost can't feed...
and even show signs of over fertilisation when the ph go down, and my solution is a 1.0 with 0.56 of tap water, so 0.44 of nutes.

When the ph is in the good range i allways have a ec drain inferior to my solution(so no salt build up with 30% drain daily), or at least the same value... when it going off the range it's begin slowly to get up until silly value...even if i drain at 50% i still have salt build up.

 

[Granger2]

I too have very hard water. Are you using a Ca supplement and a Mg supp.? I would switch pH down to Citric Acid. You can get pure Citric at a brewing store or you can use Earth Juice pH down. Just pH your water, add nutes and I never have checked drain pH. Use the recommended Canna additives. Good luck. -granger

 

[Snow Crash]

Healthy plants typically increase the pH of the media they are in by increasing the potential hydrogen available through their osmotic process of intaking nutrition. Your plants being unhealthy what to expect when the pH is dropping like this.

When I'm not sure what the problem is I tend to start at basics.

The water, it's alkaline and hard. But how alkaline and how hard? 8.6pH and 0.9ec and it's no wonder you're seeing issues. But 7.6pH and 0.5ec and that's not the issue with the correct nutrient formula.

If the water is within limits then I have to assume that the coco is improperly charged. CoGr goes through it's own preparation that needs to be done when expanding them. You may need to flush the coco and recharge it per Canna's instructions for the slabs. Re-establishing the CEC of the media is essential for the uptake of nutrients and an imbalance is the most likely suspect.

Finally, it could be bacterial. The wrong kind of bacteria could be feeding on your nutrients and blooming with the feed cycle, then dying off and washing out their acidic little bodies. This limits nutrient availability to the roots and decrease the pH to unhealthy levels. When flushing the media you may want to use an agent like hydrogen peroxide to help render your media inert/hydroponic again.

 

[Midwest Toker]

Well I'm sorry, I don't see any pics so how is a person too know. And are you running anything else? I see from your other journals you where running GH nutes. with several supplements are you still using those also?

 

[coxnox]

I too have very hard water. Are you using a Ca supplement and a Mg supp.? I would switch pH down to Citric Acid. You can get pure Citric at a brewing store or you can use Earth Juice pH down. Just pH your water, add nutes and I never have checked drain pH. Use the recommended Canna additives. Good luck. -granger

Hi,
No ca no mg supplement, just AB from canna. nothing other as most additives make shit(glunk) in my rez.

Citric acid isn't stable for ph the water, does it work well for you ?
how long your ph is stable in the rez with this citric acid ?

i don't check my drain when no problems, but when you see your plant no eating anymore, getting leaf burned like to much nutes when you only give 1.2EC(with 0.6 tap water)you know you have to look somewhere to find from where it comes.

Healthy plants typically increase the pH of the media they are in by increasing the potential hydrogen available through their osmotic process of intaking nutrition. Your plants being unhealthy what to expect when the pH is dropping like this.

When I'm not sure what the problem is I tend to start at basics.

The water, it's alkaline and hard. But how alkaline and how hard? 8.6pH and 0.9ec and it's no wonder you're seeing issues. But 7.6pH and 0.5ec and that's not the issue with the correct nutrient formula.

If the water is within limits then I have to assume that the coco is improperly charged. CoGr goes through it's own preparation that needs to be done when expanding them. You may need to flush the coco and recharge it per Canna's instructions for the slabs. Re-establishing the CEC of the media is essential for the uptake of nutrients and an imbalance is the most likely suspect.

Finally, it could be bacterial. The wrong kind of bacteria could be feeding on your nutrients and blooming with the feed cycle, then dying off and washing out their acidic little bodies. This limits nutrient availability to the roots and decrease the pH to unhealthy levels. When flushing the media you may want to use an agent like hydrogen peroxide to help render your media inert/hydroponic again.

Hi,

my water is ph 8.5 and EC 0.6
It's not the preparation as it would have make problem since day one, or at least in the 1month...it hasn't.
Only since i switched for the bloom nutrients.

the bacteria things you said is interesting, because i have some collembola, but many of them. could it be that ? i never heard it's a big issu to have them, and many coco grower have them.
But if it's that, why the ph rise when i use nitric acid, and go lower when phosphoric acid, it make no sense to me...

Well I'm sorry, I don't see any pics so how is a person too know. And are you running anything else? I see from your other journals you where running GH nutes. with several supplements are you still using those also?

No i only use canna cogr AB nothing other.
but i had similar problems with GHE, since i switch for the bloom nutes profile i get in trouble !!

here are some pictures(but i don't think pictures will help here):








edit: if needed i can buy an aquarium water test, i found one that test that:
PH, GH(Hardness), KH(hardness carbonates? i don't know if this is the righ translation), NO2 (nitrites?), NO3(nitrates?), CL2(chlorine)...is that good or ?

 

[stoned40yrs]

Them plants look like they have the Borg. Have you scoped the leaves for them sum bitches? Maybe it's just me as I see the Borg everywhere after reading the thread on Broad mites.

 

[Snow Crash]

The upward curling isn't very borg-esque. Usually it's the other way (rams horn/eagle claw style) as the mites spin their silk on the bottom of the leaf pulling the edges together.

This actually appears to me to be transpiration stress. There can be several causes for the issue but typically it is a high leaf temperature with low relative humidity that causes it. Insufficient potassium can also cause this issue as it is important to the plants ability to transpire to keep leaf tissue cool. Additionally, old HPS bulbs, or bulbs run on a dimmed ballast can provide more IR light than they did when new. The IR can mess with leaf temperature even when the room is good, and pulling the light back or replacing the bulb are the best options.

If you temps are above 25c (77f) and your relative humidity is below 60% then you have a Vapor Pressure Deficit that needs to be addressed. If your environment is good then I'd look into a potassium specific supplement for Bloom, and/or increase the use of Cannazym to full strength 4ml/liter.

 

[coxnox]

Them plants look like they have the Borg. Have you scoped the leaves for them sum bitches? Maybe it's just me as I see the Borg everywhere after reading the thread on Broad mites.

i don't know what is broad mites but there is no mites here

The upward curling isn't very borg-esque. Usually it's the other way (rams horn/eagle claw style) as the mites spin their silk on the bottom of the leaf pulling the edges together.

This actually appears to me to be transpiration stress. There can be several causes for the issue but typically it is a high leaf temperature with low relative humidity that causes it. Insufficient potassium can also cause this issue as it is important to the plants ability to transpire to keep leaf tissue cool. Additionally, old HPS bulbs, or bulbs run on a dimmed ballast can provide more IR light than they did when new. The IR can mess with leaf temperature even when the room is good, and pulling the light back or replacing the bulb are the best options.

If you temps are above 25c (77f) and your relative humidity is below 60% then you have a Vapor Pressure Deficit that needs to be addressed. If your environment is good then I'd look into a potassium specific supplement for Bloom, and/or increase the use of Cannazym to full strength 4ml/liter.

Hi,
interesting what you say, temperature is ok, from 23 to 26°C, but i have very low HR around 40%, it get slowly up now but winter alwways had that low HR without noticing this problems, at least not like here.
about the potassium issue i think you're right, but the thing is when i try to add a PK it get even worse...i mean not the leaf, i mean the ph issue.

does anybody know a good and cheap aquarium test to test the water quality ? and what should i look for ?

 

[coxnox]

So does anybody have an idea of why it get down with ph-bloom and up with ph-vegetative ? i'm the only one who get such problems ?

 

[stoned40yrs]

The upward curling isn't very borg-esque. Usually it's the other way (rams horn/eagle claw style) as the mites spin their silk on the bottom of the leaf pulling the edges together.

I'm talking about broad mites not spider mites. The leaves can curl up wards with broad mites. Look here:

https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=228387&page=175

 

[stoned40yrs]

i don't know what is broad mites but there is no mites here

It doesn't matter where you are because broad mites are every where. They travel right on Marijuana SEEDS Look at these pictures from the broad mite thread and compare them to your pictures:

https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=228387&page=175

Now I'm not saying you have broad mites I hope you have ph problems. Goodluck finding out your problem mate.

 

[coxnox]

It doesn't matter where you are because broad mites are every where. They travel right on Marijuana SEEDS Look at these pictures from the broad mite thread and compare them to your pictures:

https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=228387&page=175

Now I'm not saying you have broad mites I hope you have ph problems. Goodluck finding out your problem mate.

i mean there is not any here, on the plants that i did show on the pictures ! i'm 100% sure i have no mites(broad, red or any other bug).

 

[stoned40yrs]

i mean there is not any here, on the plants that i did show on the pictures ! i'm 100% sure i have no mites(broad, red or any other bug).

OK, Hope ya figure it out

 

[coxnox]

upp

 

[coxnox]

Hi,
i can buy an aquarium water test, i found one that test that:
PH, GH(Hardness), KH(hardness carbonates? i don't know if this is the righ translation), NO2 (nitrites?), NO3(nitrates?), CL2(chlorine)...is that good or ?
if not good wich test shoul i look for ?

 

[suomynona]

Hi Cox,

Snow Crash is right, you may have a bacterial ( or fungal ? ) problem. What do your roots look like?

KH is carbonate hardness or Alkalinity, which is a measure of the amount of bicarbonates and carbonates in your water ( hopefully in mg/L which is ppm). Carbonates act as a buffer to resist changing the water's pH to be more acidic.

The effect of watering with water with high alkalinity ( 100 ppm+ ) is that your plants substrate pH will rise over time, not lower. This is especially true if you don't add acid when you water your plants.

Again, look at your roots. Are they white and fuzzy or are they brown and water logged or otherwise unhealthy looking?

 

[coxnox]

Hi,

Thanks for the answer.
I will buy a KH test and see what's going on.

The effect of watering with water with high alkalinity ( 100 ppm+ ) is that your plants substrate pH will rise over time, not lower.

yeah i know that, the problem here it's rise with Nitric Acid, and lower with Phosphoric and that's the thing i don't understand !

My roots are white and look nice, i don't see any problems in my roots.

 

[suomynona]

I need a horticulturist on speed dial. Any takers?

I need a horticulturist on speed dial. Any takers?

I’m glad to hear that your roots are healthy. Sorry for missing that you understood what Alkalinity was.

I think I can still take a stab at analyzing your problem. I’m not an expert by any means, but I have been studying substrate pH management lately.

I have a hypothesis, but I’m not 100% sure I’m correct: You’re fertilizer’s Ammonium:Nitrate ratio is not properly matched to your source water. Alternatively, the fertilizer is perfectly matched and acidifying your reservoir is messing around with the alkalinity and/or NH4:NO3 enough to throw everything out of whack.

Supporting Evidence
Nitric Acid adds Nitrate, NO3, to your reservoir. While you didn’t specify the concentration or amount you add, using my waters alkalinity ( 135 ppm CaCO3/L ) and Alk Calc ( http://extension.unh.edu/Agric/AGGHFL/alk_calc.cfm ) I was able to determine that if I added enough nitric acid to reduce my pH from 8.3 to 5.8, I would be adding 30 ppm Nitrate to my reservoir.


As you may know, the Ammonium:Nitrate ratio determines if the fertilizer will acidify, alkalize, or maintain the medium’s pH.

Hard water fertilizer formula’s take high alkalinity into account and increase Ammonium. Or they just don’t include much Ca+ or Mg+. It seems that a lot of hydroponic specific fertilizers assume alkalinity isn’t a problem and use Nitrates as the primary source of N.

I do see this often repeated: The pH of your reservoirs water does not have nearly as much effect as the alkalinity of your water. However, I don’t know how to quantify the difference yet.

Chemistry Evidence

• NO3 ( Nitrate ) releases Hydroxide ions when absorbed through roots. This raises the pH of the substrate.
• NH4 ( Ammonium ) releases Hydrogen ions when absorbed through roots*. This lowers the pH of the substrate.
• Nitric Acid breaks down into H+ and NO3. This changes the Ammonium:Nitrate ratio.
• Phosphoric Acid does not change the Ammonium Nitrate ratio of your fertilizer.

* It is actually Hydronium ions that are released but I think it is safe to say that H+ == H3O+ in this context. Don’t yell out me if this is actually stupid.

Conclusion

• Why the pH trends up: The Nitric Acid adds enough Nitrate to your reservoir to change your Hard water formulated fertilizer from an acidifying to an alkalizing ratio. Therefore, your substrate pH is trending upwards using Nitric acid because the amount of Nitrate added changes the effect of the Ammonium-Nitrate ratio from acidifying to alkalizing.
• Why the pH trends down: Phosphoric acid does not change the Ammonium-Nitrate ratio, so has little actual effect on your substrate’s pH ( ok maybe some if it is neutralizing Alkalinity, I think Therefore, your substrate pH is trending downwards using phosphoric acid because your fertilizers Ammonium-Nitrate ratio doesn’t match your waters alkalinity.
• So, returning to a previous suggestion. Citric acid doesn’t add anything extra afaik. Sulfuric acid just adds sulfur and from my ( meager ) understanding, excessive sulfur isn’t a problem. Perhaps one of these acids are more appropriate for your situation.

I have a few more questions. You said you switched from a Veg formula to a Bloom one. Is the NH4:NO3 ratio different? If you include your fertilizers label information and weights, we might be able to confirm or deny my hypothesis. Also, how much Nitric and Phosphoric Acid are you actually adding? Do you know your acids concentration?

I hope I am not talking out of my ass with this stuff. Perhaps someone more knowledgeable can chime in.