Genetic Drift

[theother]

Was gonna post this in the thread about moms, but figured it would kind of be a hijack.

What is the general consensus on genetic drift? I have found that for myself personally when I keep moms for a long period of time, I tend to have problem. I feel like these problems could be considered genetic drift, but I don't think they are. I have some clone only's that have been alive for almost as long as I can remember. When they stay a long time in a pot they tend to go kind of red stem lockout looking after a good length of time. What i have found is that if I take cuttings in the peak of health, I never experience a degradation in the performance of the strain.

I have found that when I do have a plant go bitchy on me from having what I consider an old rootmass, I can reverse it by taking a rooted cutting, blowing it up in coco, taking another cut at what I consider the peak of health (probably two weeks from being potted) and doing this a few times, before long the problem seems to go away.

Open to what others have to say on this, and curious if others have found the same thing I have.

 

[DJXX]

i take a copies of one i want to keep when i put it in flower...i don't keeps moms per say...but make sure i have a back up copy on everything i want to keep ...like backing up a computer ...after they have vegged long enough and look vigorous, with normal leaves shooting out of her then she is a strong donor...when you keep moms there is a whole maintenance regiment needed...and if she is not maintained she will give you off spring that shows it...hope that made sense...DJXX

 

[idiit]

i think genetic drift does happen in some cases.

genetic drift probably is a long way from being understood.

i follow some of the alien/nwo/free energy devices/meditation/structured water type of stuff. there are a lot of posts on some of these sites that dna is not fixed, rather is capable of changing; some intentionally.

basically, the idea is that dna is capable of morphing in a living organism.

in cannabis genetic drift is sometimes referred to as "the clone running out". it's used in what i've read for when a clone lots some of its desirable attributes. lots of speculation as to the basic question of clones changing dna wise. then, for those that believe a clone can change dna wise what's the cause.

 

[Daub Marley]

I am not an expert in biology by any means, but I do know that there are switches that can affect the outcome of the DNA despite not actually changing the DNA coding at all. These switch can turn the function of genes on or off and are probably the cause of genetic drift. Say for instance the world jumps CO2 level to twice what they are today. Even though a clone would have the exact same DNA as the parent, if it were exposed to the higher CO2 levels it might grow larger stoma's to take advantage of the increased CO2. This is because it still has the switches from millions of years ago that responds to these signals. Again, I could be wrong on many details, so you should confirm for yourself, but the general consensuses seems to be that if the environment between the mother and the clone is the same then no genetic drift will occur.

 

[theother]

Interesting thoughts, thanks for weighing in. Were I come from there is a general,opinion that after x number of generations from seed the plants loose much virility etc. I have never subscribed to that theory but want to hear what some of the experts have to say. A lot of what I work with was old when I got it, and it's much older now. I'm curious if the loss of virility does exist however it just happened before I started working with the plants. I can't absolutely say one way or another honestly. Me and many others keep things for an extended period of time generation after generation with out any apparent harm. What do breeders do with there old strains? Do they keep moms for many many years? Seems like it would be bound to end badly as the root mass aged.

 

[jayjayfrank]

Mother Plants grow old.

It's an old story... the Grower can't understand why the last three batches of clones from his mother plant 'Old Reliable' keep getting lower and lower potency values "....no matter how I change up the lighting, micro-nutrients, etc... originally my plants tested 15% CBDA & 6% THCA, now they are down to 9% CBDA & 4% THCA."

Then I asked "And the plants themselves, how do they appear compared to earlier clones off the same mother plant?" The answer "Not as robust as they used to be, and more mildew problems."

Like I said, it's an old story, and it's all about old proteins and old DNA. All living organisms have a built-in clock, their 'Circadian Clock', which pretty much starts at Zero the day they/it are born/hatch/sprout. As you grow older, so do the proteins and DNA in your body, and as they get older, they breakdown, first slowly, yet over time the cumulation of damage starts to have appreciable effects on the organisms survivability.

The older an organism is when you clone from it, the more damage that is transferred into the new clones, therefore clones from the mother plants first year contain many less damaged proteins than clones taken during the mothers 3rd year. Bottom line: the longer you keep a mother plant, the poorer quality the clones will statistically be, and there is no way around it if you keep using the same mother plant.

This is why it is wise to seed out a small portion of one of your early clones, then safely store those seeds for long term storage, so you have a ready supply of new mother plants. Of course, bio-diversity being what it is, different seeds will sprout to form different phenotypes, so you will need plenty of seed to get the new phenotypical mother you are interested in. If the phenotype just happens to be the common phenotype, then this is easy since 50% of the seeds will be that common phenotype. If on the other hand, what you want is a rare phenotype, then your probability of getting what you want is much less (1/4, 1/8, 1/16/1/32, etc), so you will need a larger quantity of seed to find your desired plant.

Hope that helps explain it.

I don't think the circadian clock (rhythms) have anything to do with apoptosis in cells or the transcription of errors in RNA/DNA. That's more about sleep cycles.

As for propagation of DNA defects - that's most certainly true over time but free radicals do most of the damage to DNA and most of that is from UV radiation.

Also has a lot to do with telomere reduction on the end of the chromatids over time.

notes on mother plants

 

[Storm Shadow]

Virus/Disease

 

[theother]

notes on mother plants

Thank you for the quotes. That is interesting and I feel like it kind of supports my experience. I don't feel like i lose anything generation to generation of clones, but I do feel like an old mother will eventually turn out schwaggier clones, or at least slower to root etc.

Im very open to opinions though as I do not have much experience with popping seeds and keep a 1st or 2nd generation mother, so I am sure my opinion is effected by that.

 

[Dropped Cat]

I have a Thai Haze x Skunk from Skunkman.

The first flower from seed produced a pure black pepper
scent.

Since reveg and subsequent grows, both in soil and coco,
have not produced the black pepper scent.

Sam himself has no explanation. It's still a strong pleasant
bud, going on five years now.

 

[theother]

I have a Thai Haze x Skunk from Skunkman.

The first flower from seed produced a pure black pepper
scent.

Since reveg and subsequent grows, both in soil and coco,
have not produced the black pepper scent.

Sam himself has no explanation. It's still a strong pleasant
bud, going on five years now.

Just a guess, I have zero experience with re veg, but I would save it for an emergency. My experience has been that after a stress event they can kind of be bitchy for a couple generation. Again this is not from any kind of controlled experiment, just my general reaction to dealing with them.

 

[Weird]

differentials in secondary metabolites do not indicate genetic drift

I have run identical genetics in multiple locations simultaneously using the same tech and nutrient inputs different gardeners and different rooms and secondary metabolite production is dissimilar.

Happens all the time in the circles I am part of also.

i have also seen cuts lose serious vigor and have brought them back to their original stature

I have seen a rare few cuts seeming loose luster and structure while others from the same era are exactly the same

i think with some genes state of maturation at time of cloning may effect its future structure (taking a cut in 12/12 for example)

I recall at least one plant that never stacked colas the same way again after talking late cuttings

 

[Betterhaff]

This has nothing to do with genetic drift. Genetic drift is a population genetics dynamic related to the alelle frequencies in subsequent populations.

 

[theother]

This has nothing to do with genetic drift. Genetic drift is a population genetics dynamic related to the alelle frequencies in subsequent populations.

Genetic drift is just what they call it out here, it's probably used incorrectly.

 

[Storm Shadow]

Your plants have a Virus in them...and once they get it...its really really hard to get rid of

Moms can last forever...once they get infected...the steady decline starts

 

[Daub Marley]

This has nothing to do with genetic drift. Genetic drift is a population genetics dynamic related to the alelle frequencies in subsequent populations.

lol. It somehow got got called genetic drift, and while the name does logically represent the mechanism it is already in use. So let's take it back to square one.
What is the name and definition of what we are talking about?

 

[kg beans]

after growing/keeping motherstock under lights for a few years i find that a growing season under natural light(yes the sun!)does wonders for renewed vigour in old stock,just take cuts for a "new" mum before the solstice..kgb

 

[Betterhaff]

lol. It somehow got got called genetic drift, and while the name does logically represent the mechanism it is already in use. So let's take it back to square one.
What is the name and definition of what we are talking about?

Not sure what it would be called scientifically but it may have something to do with keeping an annual plant alive by maintaining a constant and extended life cycle (by light cycle) to never reach it’s natural senescence…maybe a very slow prolonged senescence, lol.