flower development stops

[theother]

Saw some signs of discomfort in the plants that were just brought in, definitely saw some more of the downward cupping with the tips bent even further. Grabbed a pic of one leaf because it looked to me like it had a bit of a cal deficiency as well. All others look exceptable (the curl cupped tip is going on throughout, but nothing but this shows the ca? def look). These got worse since the pic was taken and that's why I changed the co2.

turned off the co2 and dropped temps to between 74 and 75. This is the temp range I am used to so its easier for everything to balance. Don't really think it was the determining factor in these things stopping (still suspect too many feeds), but it was hard to balance the temp RH with co2 on, running that hot. I don't have a separate day night setting on the controller, so I was forced to set the dehu to a higher RH than I was comfortable with at night. Seems like it was too dry during the day and to humid at night. Have dehu set at 50% now, won't really come on during the day because air exchange handles it, and it should keep my temps and RH almost the same during the night now.

 

[Snow Crash]

Thought I should take the opportunity to run this past you, how does this look for a 5-6 week res to you.

6 mls AB
6 mls hydroplex
0.7 gram epsom
1 gram Big Bud powder

I am coming up with
N 82
P 116
K 202
MG 46
S 54
CA 71

I am seeing this as a 1-3-3 (approximately) ratio once I add back the oxygen to P&K

I think its going to be near impossible to hit the phos dominant ratios with the nutes I currently have on hand, without going like 10 mls per of hydroplex (what scares me their is the additives, not sure they would be safe at that concentration) I am just still kind of gun shy of swapping out the base, as so far I have very much enjoyed the clean qualities of the canna meds. I know I will have to bite the bullet eventually and swap out for ripe or something similar, will make it much easier to hit the ratios.

Looks not bad. I might tweak it a little for myself but I know my plants and environment and you know yours...

I might recommend more like 5ml of A+B and 5ml of the Hydroplex at that point though. The PPM on both the Nitrogen and Phosphorus seem just a touch high, but genetic dependent... So, it's really nuanced and impossible for me to totally dial in from afar.

Be back in a bit. It's lunch time

 

[drknockbootz]

First off I think what helped in the slowing down was your canopy heat. Anything above 80 can stagnate flower formation. Once passed week 3 keep temps in the 70s. Also no need to go over 1200 ppm in co2

I agree with everyone saying backoff the amount of times you water. You said 12 plants in 2.5 gallons from that alone it tells me theres definitely no need to water that often. If you want to water that often cut it with some aeration medium.

Also why are u using two bloom boosters? I think your original NPK was closer to the target ratio then the latest npk your running. Look up a poster by the name of yosemite sam for proper ratios.

Wondering why dont you just use the a/b and a few additives that dont change npk too much?

 

[stihgnobevoli]

looks like they were doing good up through week 5. one thing i noticed in the pictures you posted is they look like they're having a lot of nitrogen for that stage of flower. btw you'll wanna show off the most fucked up lookin leaves if you want us to spot the deficiency. looks like K on those leaves(burned edges) and you should probably expect a micro def based on the variegation(half turning yellow other half green) on those leaves. have you grown this strain before? i had a plant that grew with fan leaves hanging straight down like that before. only one in the room, i never figured it out, i just chalked it to either genes or too humid.

all in all next grow i would halve the number you have there for nitrogen with this strain after week 4 and see if it goes better. if thats loo low just work your way back up.

 

[michaelswines]

You need to back down the feeding to 1 to 2 times a day max in 2.5 gallons, remember you only feed coco once 50% of the moisture has been consumed (literally pick up the plant to make judgment). Make sure to always have 20% run-off with coco. Your plants are so over intoxicated with fertilizers its not even funny. A lot of growers forget what they growing, you are growing flowers not leafs and stems per se. Over fertilization does a wonderful job of growing super dark green leaves, but the goal is a lime green color. 1.3 EC should be max, and only experienced during week 6 of a 8 week strain, other than that, maintain around an EC of 1.0-1.1 thru the flowering cycle. Good luck!

 

[theother]

Looks not bad. I might tweak it a little for myself but I know my plants and environment and you know yours...

I might recommend more like 5ml of A+B and 5ml of the Hydroplex at that point though. The PPM on both the Nitrogen and Phosphorus seem just a touch high, but genetic dependent... So, it's really nuanced and impossible for me to totally dial in from afar.

Be back in a bit. It's lunch time

The mix came out at 1.5 ec, ended up diluting down to just over 1 ec as it is pretty clear they are not using much if anything right now. Still stumped as to whether they are salt bound or not. No signs of burning etc, but there seem to be some tell tale signs to me, not bad but it may be a contributing factor. Flushed 25 gallons through 12 of them about 4 days ago.

First off I think what helped in the slowing down was your canopy heat. Anything above 80 can stagnate flower formation. Once passed week 3 keep temps in the 70s. Also no need to go over 1200 ppm in co2

I agree with everyone saying backoff the amount of times you water. You said 12 plants in 2.5 gallons from that alone it tells me theres definitely no need to water that often. If you want to water that often cut it with some aeration medium.

Also why are u using two bloom boosters? I think your original NPK was closer to the target ratio then the latest npk your running. Look up a poster by the name of yosemite sam for proper ratios.

Wondering why dont you just use the a/b and a few additives that dont change npk too much?

I think the canopy temps were definitely a mistake on my part. I thought I had a handle on co2 but it was my first time using it. The longer I spent with an IR thermometer the more I realized there were little hot pockets different places.

Totally agree that the 5x feedings was foolish. In my own defense I have never seen faster stretch and stack than I did while doing 3x waterings. I have them at 2x now, and the interesting thing is the smaller plants that just came in are drying out faster than the 5 weekers. I may stick with 3x for the veggers and then back them down to 2x after stack.

As far as the npk feed schedule, I have been hooked on the canna stats calc for figuring out where I am at. For the most part it has been fantastic, I can use canna and still by right at the h3ad ratios or anything else I like. I do agree with you though, in light of everything that has gone on this run, I am tempted to simplify the whole thing.

looks like they were doing good up through week 5. one thing i noticed in the pictures you posted is they look like they're having a lot of nitrogen for that stage of flower. btw you'll wanna show off the most fucked up lookin leaves if you want us to spot the deficiency. looks like K on those leaves(burned edges) and you should probably expect a micro def based on the variegation(half turning yellow other half green) on those leaves. have you grown this strain before? i had a plant that grew with fan leaves hanging straight down like that before. only one in the room, i never figured it out, i just chalked it to either genes or too humid.

all in all next grow i would halve the number you have there for nitrogen with this strain after week 4 and see if it goes better. if thats loo low just work your way back up.

Thanks for the insight on those varigated leaves, that is kind of a new one for me. It is a trainwreckxhawaiin and its just kind of a weird plant. I really enjoy the meds though, so im gonna give her some space.

As far as the 5 week plants, the biggest problem with them, is they look almost exactly as they did at 3 weeks when vertical growth stagnated. I think the answer is pretty universal from the community here, and I don't think I will be trying the 5x thing again. They do look quite green and a bit extra waxy to me, all photos are taken through a pair of method seven glasses so it may not be completely true to the actual colors but it is pretty close.

As far as actual defficient looking leaves and stuff, the worst thing I notice in the there (besides the sagging leaves different places) is this. I know when it happened though, it was smack in the center and it dried out one day (I added an extra dripper to centers to fix it) but it popped this heat stressed rusty looking deal.

You need to back down the feeding to 1 to 2 times a day max in 2.5 gallons, remember you only feed coco once 50% of the moisture has been consumed (literally pick up the plant to make judgment). Make sure to always have 20% run-off with coco. Your plants are so over intoxicated with fertilizers its not even funny. A lot of growers forget what they growing, you are growing flowers not leafs and stems per se. Over fertilization does a wonderful job of growing super dark green leaves, but the goal is a lime green color. 1.3 EC should be max, and only experienced during week 6 of a 8 week strain, other than that, maintain around an EC of 1.0-1.1 thru the flowering cycle. Good luck!

I think you hit the nail on the head here. The more I think about how fast these plants moved when they were on the 1.1 ec (.2 ec tap RO mix) the more I realized It shouldn't take much more than that through flower. The funny thing is I had friends warning me that my 1.5-1.8 ec feeds where way to low LOL, just depends on the situation I suppose. I have a strong background in indoor organic gardening, did a few dirt salt runs, but wanted to get in on the coco goodness, but I definitely have struggled. One problem is these cuts always did great with organics (not heavy feeders I suppose).

So as far as the lime green thing, then this pic of these plants looks exceptable?

 

[Wingnutt]

It has already been stated that you were watering too often, I agree.

I also think that you have too much runoff. I have been using coco for years and ran into this problem a while ago. While you do need runoff, too much runoff creates an imbalance in your medium. You didn't have this problem with peat because peat doesn't care about cation exchange. I can't give you the science behind it but I can almost guarantee if you back off your runoff to max 10% each watering you'll be better off.

You also might consider not flushing twice a week, back it off to once. Flushing can mess with cation exchange and unless you see evidence of burning I would keep to to every week or two.

Hope it helps.

 

[drknockbootz]

Im going to have to disgree respectfully. 1.5-1.6 ec is perfect in my opinion. 1.2 ec is good as well, but
Going off what I seen in my rooms(strain dependent) when running 1000w over 4x4 with co2 fed multiple times a day....1-1.2ec has been on the low end and my plants end up looking hungry.

As longs as your feedings dont go over 2.0ec you should be fine. But more importantly you should be more focused on the actual ec and ph of the MEDIUM, not the input. So whats your runoff? That would give a better idea of what REALLY going on.

I see you like playing with the calculator and playing with npk's. But your ratios seem off.......like not enough calcium too much P and K.
Something around these numbers :

N.....80
P.....60
K....100
Ca..100
Mg...50

 

[theother]

It has already been stated that you were watering too often, I agree.

I also think that you have too much runoff. I have been using coco for years and ran into this problem a while ago. While you do need runoff, too much runoff creates an imbalance in your medium. You didn't have this problem with peat because peat doesn't care about cation exchange. I can't give you the science behind it but I can almost guarantee if you back off your runoff to max 10% each watering you'll be better off.

You also might consider not flushing twice a week, back it off to once. Flushing can mess with cation exchange and unless you see evidence of burning I would keep to to every week or two.

Hope it helps.

I had a friend telling me the same thing about runoff, not sure if I am on board yet but will definitely consider it. Certainly I will never run as much water as I have these last two times, because it clearly did not work. I will have to set an alarm for 4 am and see how much runoff i am getting at that watering, would be interesting, would like to heft the pots and see how much lighter they are at that point also.

The actual flush of 25 gallons for 12 plants happens only every other week. I was using the organic (guano, carb) feedings as like mini flushes, putting maybe 5 gallons through (unfortunately I wasn't stopping the regular feedings on those days) I think this may be even more of a contributing factor to the whole issue. Not only does the root zone become anerobic and water logged, but I was adding a bunch of organic material at the same time (its kind of like I wanted to deal with pythium in retrospect).

Im going to have to disgree respectfully. 1.5-1.6 ec is perfect in my opinion. 1.2 ec is good as well, but
Going off what I seen in my rooms(strain dependent) when running 1000w over 4x4 with co2 fed multiple times a day....1-1.2ec has been on the low end and my plants end up looking hungry.

As longs as your feedings dont go over 2.0ec you should be fine. But more importantly you should be more focused on the actual ec and ph of the MEDIUM, not the input. So whats your runoff? That would give a better idea of what REALLY going on.

I see you like playing with the calculator and playing with npk's. But your ratios seem off.......like not enough calcium too much P and K.
Something around these numbers :

N.....80
P.....60
K....100
Ca..100
Mg...50

I was definitely on board with your logic up until these last two runs. I don't think your wrong either, I think to a certain extent it is strain dependent, the first thing I did in coco was a heavy feeding hybrid and it blew up like no other! Everything after that has been a nightmare (also been kind of picky kushes)

I will have a look at the runoff tonight and get a EC number. Up until now it has always been lower than the incoming feed (1.3 going in, .9 coming out) Unfortunately that was the case last time as well, and that run definitely turned out to be salt bound (tasted like sucking on a fucking penny!)

I will do a slurry test for PH also.

 

[michaelswines]

I am super glad you use Canna, for that is what I stand by as well, to answer your question (from picture), no, the lime green to slightly darker green needs to be even throughout the foliage, if you have Canna available, feed them according, and watch what happens to the leaves after four days of feed. Feed around 1.1 pH at 5.8, make sure to recalibrate your meter at least once a week. I want to also address your stretch comment. Just bare with me for a moment, your goal should be minimal stretch, if you feed right, and keep your day and night temperatures in check, your distance of internodes will stay closer, which is our goal for achieving higher yields. Super stretching plants indicate improper feeding and incorrect temperatures, which is stress, which in returns lowers yield and quality. I know it sounds a lot, but soon it becomes second nature. Hang in there, you will be okay soon.

 

[drknockbootz]

I had a friend telling me the same thing about runoff, not sure if I am on board yet but will definitely consider it. Certainly I will never run as much water as I have these last two times, because it clearly did not work. I will have to set an alarm for 4 am and see how much runoff i am getting at that watering, would be interesting, would like to heft the pots and see how much lighter they are at that point also.

The actual flush of 25 gallons for 12 plants happens only every other week. I was using the organic (guano, carb) feedings as like mini flushes, putting maybe 5 gallons through (unfortunately I wasn't stopping the regular feedings on those days) I think this may be even more of a contributing factor to the whole issue. Not only does the root zone become anerobic and water logged, but I was adding a bunch of organic material at the same time (its kind of like I wanted to deal with pythium in retrospect).



I was definitely on board with your logic up until these last two runs. I don't think your wrong either, I think to a certain extent it is strain dependent, the first thing I did in coco was a heavy feeding hybrid and it blew up like no other! Everything after that has been a nightmare (also been kind of picky kushes)

I will have a look at the runoff tonight and get a EC number. Up until now it has always been lower than the incoming feed (1.3 going in, .9 coming out) Unfortunately that was the case last time as well, and that run definitely turned out to be salt bound (tasted like sucking on a fucking penny!)

I will do a slurry test for PH also.

For plants in mid flower runoff below 1.0 ec is really low. That bad taste could be many other factors other than ec. I look at it this way. Your over 60w per sq ft, your running co2, multiple feeds your pushing your plants pretty hard but your ec runoff is below 1.0 ec. It doesnt match your other inputs. The weak link in the chain possibly.

 

[theother]

I am super glad you use Canna, for that is what I stand by as well, to answer your question (from picture), no, the lime green to slightly darker green needs to be even throughout the foliage, if you have Canna available, feed them according, and watch what happens to the leaves after four days of feed. Feed around 1.1 pH at 5.8, make sure to recalibrate your meter at least once a week. I want to also address your stretch comment. Just bare with me for a moment, your goal should be minimal stretch, if you feed right, and keep your day and night temperatures in check, your distance of internodes will stay closer, which is our goal for achieving higher yields. Super stretching plants indicate improper feeding and incorrect temperatures, which is stress, which in returns lowers yield and quality. I know it sounds a lot, but soon it becomes second nature. Hang in there, you will be okay soon.

I like your comment about stretch, that is absolutely true most of the time. The system I am using here is just a bit different though. I don't really have room to veg big so I give them 2 weeks under a 1k MH. Most of this time is spent developing roots, I bring them in when they are about 8" tall and flip them like that. What I really enjoy about that is that I end up with a nice even 3' high canopy. I know in a perfect world I would bring them in about 2' tall and just stack nodes for another foot, but I just don't think that will fit my current situation exactly. I do actually keep pretty close to even temps though, I think I may be between 5-10 degrees lower during their night. The dehu does a good job keeping the temps up in the dark.

For plants in mid flower runoff below 1.0 ec is really low. That bad taste could be many other factors other than ec. I look at it this way. Your over 60w per sq ft, your running co2, multiple feeds your pushing your plants pretty hard but your ec runoff is below 1.0 ec. It doesnt match your other inputs. The weak link in the chain possibly.

It makes sense, I really am gonna have a hard time convincing myself to feed these plants more though. I think at this point it is all about salvaging what I can. I absolutely agree that somewhere I have weak link, and it could well be the ec of the feeds. I guess the problem is its just easier for me to lower the room temp, lower the co2 and back off the waterings per day. I don't think I was completely lost in the multiple feedings high temps cranking the co2, it is a FACT that it works for some people, just doesn't seem to be working for me (and my weak link could absolutely have been my feed strength.

I don't think anyone will argue that I am fucking up what I am trying to do, so probably for now going less aggressive is a better plan for me. Coco has pretty much ruined me at this point, and I really want just get back on track. I think it would have been wise for me, coming from an organic background, to not have gone to absolute razors edge of performance (since I am yielding about what a 6th grader would growing bagseed in a sandbox).

 

[theother]

Grabbed some pics of roots, figured it would be good to get a second opinion. They look healthy to me. This is definitely one of the runts off on the side (would be impossible to get a center one high enough to get a pic.

Roots look healthy enough to me considering the abuse of the constant waterings. I suspect based on past experience that most are going to have 25-50% more than this one does based on position.

Another interesting thing is that I had to up the younger (less than a week) ones to 3x a day as the coco was pulling away from the edges of the pot and drying out. I guess it could be that the environment dictates that they dry out more than the others. They are not completely covered by a canopy the way the old ones are.

It may also be that the solution flows through the coco much easier before it is jammed full of roots.

One final thing I thought I should clear up, they are in 2 gallon pots and are only filled up 2/3-3/4 so probably more like 1.5 gallons (6-6.5 litres) would be average. Also these are nursery 2's, not sure that matters at 2 gallons but I know true 5 gallon (smart pot etc) are much bigger than a nursery 5. Not sure if that is the same with 2's.

 

[drknockbootz]

looking at those roots and the fact the containers are smaller I DONT think the 5 times a day of watering was the issue.

 

[theother]

Noticed something today, seems like the older plants just aren't using water. I have the young plant on 3x and it is lighter (almost too light honestly) every time I feel it. The plants at 45 days feel heavy at 2x (same on duration for the pump) I checked the res, and there is no malfunction the young plant is getting plenty of water and is using all of it. I turned the older plants off to see how long it takes them to feel lighter again.

Anyone have any insight on this, it seems as though they are just not using water. Doesn't seem to be the environment as the young plant in the same environment is using water quickly.

Im stumped, I know it is something happening between day 21 and day 32, because that is where they stop every time.

Here are the things that happen in that time frame

-I have been increasing the ec at that point which I guess I will do less of, may keep them around 1.2-1.4 through that point from now on, last time they were between 1.4 and 1.6 through then.

- I have also been increasing the waterings, which I will stop,

- I have been swinging the ratio towards PK at this point, nothing that in my opinion could cause this, but I am increasing PK. I have been basically using the PK to increase the total EC of the solution. I will still be increasing the pk, but I will be backing off the base to accommodate it I suppose.

- I also clean up the larfy new growth during this time, the cleanup does not coincide directly with the stopping, but it is definitely during those weeks. I don't know if this could somehow be a contributing factor? I do it slowly over the course of days, nothing too major coming off any thing at once. I have to clean them at some point, and it really has to be after flower set or they will just larf out again. The flower set has always been extremely aggressive, I never really considered it detrimental removing low growth as it was developing just about as fast as I could pull it off. and I never saw any signs of stress.

Honestly the switch from aggressive growth to pretty much complete stop is super drastic, no real signs of stress just a dying back of pistils and a maturing of tops that ends up just sitting like that for the next 3 weeks with little change. The pistils don't shrivel back like they would from damage (rubbing against them, or getting beaten up by oscillator) they just mature too quick.

One final thought is that its super frustrating, even knowing everything I know now, looking at the way that young plant is moving and using water, I would be inclined to up its feed frequency. I won't but it is just interesting that it could move through water so aggressively at 7 days. I really wonder if it is something else effecting them that stresses them out in a way were they stop using water.

 

[theother]

Just a little update, on this continuously frustrating situation. Backed way off the watering, down to 2x and actually turned off the timer to see how long it took for the pot to get noticeably lighter. It took approximately a day and half before I new there was little water left in the pot.

The problem with this is the younger plant that is literally 1/4 the size of the bigger older ones is using water incredibly quickly. I slowed down the watering on those and it has definitely slowed down growth. It looks as though there is no way they will hit the screen at this rate of growth. I turned back up there pumps to try and salvage some growth out of them and get them big enough to cover the light spread.

Can anyone think of a reason why a plant in flower would stop drinking nearly completely? All I can think is that for whatever reason during stretch and stack these plants need a lot of water at frequent intervals and for some reason around day 28-31 they need to be slowed way down and allowed to have almost full wet dry cycles?

Somehow this pick disappeared from my post above on the second page but I will post it again here, this was taken a week ago, they have changed since then but no real development in the flowers, just a general aging of the plant, yellowing out of the leaves and in general much more fall colors now.

Also checked the runoff last night, dropped the feed to 1.1 ec, and the runoff is coming out at 1.2 ec, this makes since since they had been getting fed around 1.3-1.4 before this.

I would also add that the plants look ever so slightly strange, the leaves are just a tiny bit more brital than normal, nothing like a real salt buildup, but just a little bit stiffer than I would have normally expected them to be, also the leaves are just a bit waxier than I would have expected them to be.

The final thing, and think possibly this might shed some light on things is that they tric-ed out faster than I would have expected, seems like right after stagnation of vertical growth (right at the end of what I consider stack) they started to tric out, pretty heavily. I feel like they always begin to develop them around then, but it is normally kind of gradual as swell takes place, in the case of these last two runs it seems as though tric development sort of takes the place of swell. I wonder if I got two high with the K and that combined with the aging coco releasing K might have cause this? That is really my only guess.

In light of everything that keeps happening here, I am strongly inclined to not really switch my ratio at the point that I have been. I think I will run my normal 1.2 ec solution of 7mls A&B 2mls hydroplex, 2mls calmag in a mix of ro and tap (trying to hit about .3 ec water) I am going to continue this until I see swell (something I haven't seen the last two runs) and then will consider starting to switch the calmag out for epsom and dropping the base and increasing the pk, but not until I see full on swell happening, as that is now my white wale.

It may be possible that I have been early in swinging the ratios etc, and somehow fuckered the development at that time.

Super frustrated, coco is ruining me, watching those little ones suck the water down, makes me think that it probably wasn't the 5x watering, I won't do it again, but I am going to have turn the timer much higher to keep them from drying out completely between waterings. I am just at a loss as to how this keeps happening. Its obviously some error on my end as it happens right around the same time on two different runs with two different strains (super similar in growth and nutrient needs, picky plants for the most part)

 

[medicalmj]

Can anyone think of a reason why a plant in flower would stop drinking nearly completely?

Yes, but it may not help you. The plant is not performing transpiration. There are varying degrees of how much water a healthy plant will use based on envirnmental factors such as heat and humidity. That aside it sounds like your plants are not using what they should for given environment. Transpiration occurs through the stomatal apertures, and can be thought of as a necessary "cost" associated with the opening of the stomata to allow the diffusion of co2http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon_dioxide gas from the air for photosynthesis.

The O2 that a plant "breathes" is actually from H20, not CO2. Oxygen (O2) is a waste product from splitting 2 water molecules. The plant uses the H proton as an electron carrier and to drive the proton pump. This basically drives the rest of plant photosynthesis. It's really interesting stuff.

 

[ozzieAI]

Can anyone think of a reason why a plant in flower would stop drinking nearly completely?

there are 2 situations where i have had this happen...root rot was one and root aphids was the other....but your plants look very healthy in that last pic that i doubt that you have rot or RA...

however can you at least inspect the roots of the suspect plants...even though you can't get a pic?

 

[theother]

there are 2 situations where i have had this happen...root rot was one and root aphids was the other....but your plants look very healthy in that last pic that i doubt that you have rot or RA...

however can you at least inspect the roots of the suspect plants...even though you can't get a pic?

Funny you should mention that! I suspect that root rot or some other form of pythium is the culprit. Its not the kind of devastating condition you see with pythium in an organic setting because I assume the roots are able to take up some of the salts despite whatever damage is occurring. It makes sense to me that this could cause the plant to slow its water intake the way these have. Also I kind of the think the organic feeds in such a wet environment just make the condition worse.

Kind of thinking to switching to a sterile root zone for awhile and seeing if that helps. Coconutz brought up SM 90 in one of these threads and I think I am going to start using it in every res for peace of mind.

Open to suggestions, but that's where I am at for now at least. Also gonna follow a lot of the other suggestions in this thread, don't think I will go all the way up to 5x and also think I am gonna keep the whole feed to no more than 1.3-1.4 maybe even not above 1.2. I am keeping the co2 off for now and keeping canopy temps down in the 70's. Will turn it back on later I guess, but not on this next one.

 

[ozzieAI]

Kind of thinking to switching to a sterile root zone for awhile and seeing if that helps.

this has always worked for me...