led prices irational

[woogille]

just something that makes me curious lately,

why does all thoes led retailers/lamps' manufactueres put all these high prices to their products ?

i mean - take a look at this http://www.dutch-passion.nl/en/cannabis-seeds/product/led-grow-light/
it's a 190-210w lamp with 'epistar' and 'epidled' chips, tiwanian/chinese cheap leds, maybe not that bad, but definatly not better than americans bridgelux for example (m i right?).
price is -330 euros [about 460 us dollars].

now - theres nothing special really about that lamp, no digital light control, dimmer or anything, just a bunch of leds mounted into a heatsink and power to make a lamp.

now most lamps i saw at the last 3-4 months were pretty much like this one -
price is high,
nothing special except a bunch of leds+heatsing+power+fans.
leds themselfs might vary - usually it's either bridgelux or chinese, sometimes cree or phillips.

while all that time, theres one ebay store (actually there was 2 or 3 but they are closed), a chinese company that uses 'bridgelux' leds and like all the others - only assambles them onto a heatsink with fans and power, but the real issue is the price -
their price for a 180w lamp is about 115 us dollars, http://www.ebay.com/itm/JoyHydroGro...Seed_Starting_Hydroponics&hash=item19e1aeb8ea
a 300w lamp would be about 160-165 us dollars (while actually at an ebay auction you could get it a little cheaper), http://www.ebay.com/itm/JoyHydroGro...1598049?pt=US_Hydroponics&hash=item1c3663dae1

now this thing is kinda bugging me,
i mean - why are they the only ones that doesnt afraid of low prices ?
it looks like they are barely making any profit,
but why does everybody else go skyrocketing with their prices, while their lamps are all pretty much the same ?
not to mention the free worldwide shipping

edit -
an oh yea -
probably the best featur of theirs - they can custoumise your led's colors

 

[stoned-trout]

theres a sucker born every minute........led are hot product at the moment so big$$$$$.I am waiting till the prices come down before I jump in ...

 

[woogille]

theres a sucker born every minute........led are hot product at the moment so big$$$$$.I am waiting till the prices come down before I jump in ...

a sucker or not -
they deserve anyone buying only from them with thoes kind of prices.

 

[FunkBomb]

It's a combination of a new technology, demand, and profit motive. People don't go into business, work really hard (or not) to just break even. If you can charge more and sell the same or more number of units then why not? One thing all of these companies won't tell you is how monetary devaluation and inflation play into their prices.

I don't agree with some of the prices I see for new LED lights, nor do I agree with the flimsy justifications for the prices. I don't work in the industry so my opinion carries little weight.

Just look at 60 watt incandescent replacement LED light bulbs; They are $10 right now. In a few years that price will be far less.

-Funk

 

[aridbud]

In part, higher price it due to the longevity of the panel.....properly handled....lasts 50,000-70,000 hrs without bulb fade (reduction in lumens). Ballasts and HID bulbs wear out needing replaced before the 50,0000 hr.+ mark.

And LEDs have more of the light spectrum than regular cfl bulbs.

I'm not saying that justifies the price, but that's probably the price (embedded) due to those issues. Just sayin'....

I've used all....HID, fluorescent tubes (cool white back in the day), cfl's, T 5's....cool/warm with red/blue spectrum. I like the way the chlorophyll is darker with LED's....from the entire light spectrum. Yeah, I gulped when I first bought them....but happily pleased with results.

To each their own....

 

[HyDroid]

Also, these retailers give in to principles of supply and demand. They make some units and try to sell them at a high price. They cannot sell all of their units at that price and will have surplus. When they release the next model, what happens to the old units? They put them on sale, probably still netting a decent profit.

I got lucky and found some 150 watt units in the configuration I wanted just as they were going on sale. And they were at a price that I considered to be reasonable. Of course, it would be hard to stock a commercial operation that way.



But, if it is true that assembling an LED unit is a simple matter of placing LEDs in a housing with a current controller, fan and heat sink, then anybody after commercial quantities should be able to fill their own needs or hire their trimmer friends to help assemble the units. The necessary skills could be taught in about an hour.

Sadly, though, I think it is going to be hard to do much better than $.50 / Watt when buying LEDs. It is also going to be hard to drive those LEDs for less than $.50 / Watt. So for a 300W unit you're looking at $150.00 for LEDs, $150.00 for drivers, $10 for housing, $10 for switches, cords, and heat sinks, plus time of assembly. Let's just say it's around $1.00 / W.

A company might be able to build their own drivers for a lot less, might be able to get cheaper rates on LEDs, but not by a HUGE factor. So I would say that it is a great deal to get a well cooled unit at less than $1.00 / W, and I think it's not totally unreasonable for a company to sell a unit at $1.50 / W, especially since LEDs are just coming into their own at the moment. I have no problem shelling out to support this budding tech, as it provides substantial benefits over the alternatives.

I'm probably never looking back to HID or Flouro, except possibly Flouro to supplement but I have yet to be convinced that is necessary. LEDs allow very efficient conversion of electricity to light, and allow you to generate light that is totally usable by the plant (correct wavelength), so are more efficient than broad spectrum emitters by 2 factors. And they are way more practical and scalable in terms of heat and infrastructure, safer to humans' eyes since they lack substantial IR and UV (still don't stare at them, though), and most importantly can grow top-notch bud.




On a related note, Here's something that is kind of neat. Google: 4000K T8 Retrofit LED Tubes.

 

[HyDroid]

aridbud, I've used a lot of it as well (flouros of many temps but only a little HID) and I totally agree about the darker chlorophyll with LEDs, that is something I noticed right off the bat.

 

[Phychotron]

Local LED dealers need to make much more profit than the Chinese manufacture because they will need to deal with overhead and warranty issues and stuff like that, which cost money shipping back and forth, $40+ a time. If they are serious about keeping their name they need to keep the business sustainable. Moreover, a good LED vendor is not just reselling those crappy EBAY generic look-a-likes, they're ordering them to higher standards and making sure the manufacturer is putting in the quality parts that they ordered. They also keep up with the research and update the lights as needed (in theory).

The problem with those generic resellers is that they have no commitment to anything, just trying to turn a profit. THOSE GENERIC LED"S PRODUCE INFERIOR BUDS--is at least the general trend. People want to make a profit any way they can, and claim that the light they sell is the bomb, because it has some specifications to which you've heard. Fact is it takes a little bit of skill to get the most out of an LED grow light; you can't just stick some diodes to a sheet of aluminum and call it a grow light like a lot of these generics have been doing in the past.

Diodes cost money individually, and the cost goes up fast when you have to add these higher quality diodes (bin) that can be $1-2 more PER DIODE.

One day those cheap light will work fine, but until the industry advances a few more years its hard to commit so much money into a cheap fixture. Especially after you've used a few and they don't perform very well. The industry is so flooded with that generic garbage that I don't even waste my time looking at most of the stuff that comes out--they will eventually build a name for themselves if they have any sort of quality.

 

[Jnugg]

Either way they still can't match the overall quality and quantity a good HID will provide.

 

[Phychotron]

Which LED's have you grown with?

 

[Jnugg]

Which LED's have you grown with?

None,because I know better.

Show me a grow using LED's and only LED's where the grower got 3/4 of a pound (336 grams) in a 3x3 space!

 

[aridbud]

Either way they still can't match the overall quality and quantity a good HID will provide.

I tend to disagree.

Certainly the thermal footprint is much less, electrical consumption is much less, heat factor is much less.

Have used HID for years (2 or more decades)....LED's out perform (yes, you have to get one that is powerful...one that is 3-5 w per diode chip....or higher!!) HID in light spectrum with the total color spectrum, not just 2-3 that MH/HPS uses.

And the lumen loss with the bulbs are not a factor in a well built (not Chinese knock offs) LED compared to MH/HPS's loss of lumens the longer you use it, having to replace bulbs to maintain optimum lumen output.

With LED's there's minimal lumen depreciation compared to HID, longer lifetime compared to HID bulbs...MH/HPS, directionality and durability.

One of the greatest advantages of LED fixtures is their lifetime, which reduces maintenance costs. At a ten-year lifetime (compared to two years for a metal halide bulb), thus will need to change far fewer bulbs, ballasts, and igniters. In fact, maintenance savings alone are sufficient to make LED fixtures cheaper on a lifecycle basis than conventional HID fixtures.

I'm not a LED salesperson....I just know what works best in my/our own situations.

If you desire more heat build up, more thermal detection, more utility use ($$$)....definitely use HID!!!

 

[Jnugg]

I tend to disagree.

Certainly the thermal footprint is much less, electrical consumption is much less, heat factor is much less.

Have used HID for years (2 or more decades)....LED's out perform (yes, you have to get one that is powerful...one that is 3-5 w per diode chip....or higher!!) HID in light spectrum with the total color spectrum, not just 2-3 that MH/HPS uses.

And the lumen loss with the bulbs are not a factor in a well built (not Chinese knock offs) LED compared to MH/HPS's loss of lumens the longer you use it, having to replace bulbs to maintain optimum lumen output.

With LED's there's minimal lumen depreciation compared to HID, longer lifetime compared to HID bulbs...MH/HPS, directionality and durability.

One of the greatest advantages of LED fixtures is their lifetime, which reduces maintenance costs. At a ten-year lifetime (compared to two years for a metal halide bulb), thus will need to change far fewer bulbs, ballasts, and igniters. In fact, maintenance savings alone are sufficient to make LED fixtures cheaper on a lifecycle basis than conventional HID fixtures.

I'm not a LED salesperson....I just know what works best in my/our own situations.

If you desire more heat build up, more thermal detection, more utility use ($$$)....definitely use HID!!!

I'll quote myself since you missed it...

None,because I know better.

Show me a grow using LED's and only LED's where the grower got 3/4 of a pound (336 grams) in a 3x3 space!

 

[aridbud]

Show me a grow using LED's and only LED's where the grower got 3/4 of a pound (336 grams) in a 3x3 space!

Happy for you, bro.

 

[Jnugg]

I'm happy too because that was all with five very different/various bagseed plants (always loved bagseed) utilizing a 400w HPS hung barebulb down the center of my 3x3 tent.

Monocropping five cuts of my keeper mom and I bet I'll hit a pound,possibly even a pound plus.

Unfortunately I have yet to see similar results from ANYONE growing with LED's and LED's only.

I'm not hating on you guts,just saying that they simply do not compare to HID's when it comes down to overall crop quality AND quantity.

 

[Phychotron]

Your seriously bragging about 37g/sq-ft? got 49 off the last crop in a 4x6 area. Thats 42 ounces btw. All LED.

 

[Jnugg]

A 4x6 area (24 square feet) is alot bigger than a 3x3 area (9 square feet).

 

[Phychotron]

hence the math

 

[poindexterous]

Like most I'd love to try LED's, either stand alone or to supplement my HID's, but find the prices painful.

A brief search of a popular electronics supply website had 3W led's at $4 ea in bulk, so if that were typical(?) a 300w fixture would have $400 in led's alone, add another 50%(total guess) for the other parts and labor, so $600, then double that to make a profit, so $1200 retail? This little formula is me totally winging it with only the most superficial research and estimates, so maybe I'm WAY of, however I could see the shocking cost of them representing typical manufacturing cost and profit numbers? LED's are pretty expensive! I mean if someone could do it way cheaper wouldn't they? They'd get a lot of business. Happy to be corrected if I'm way off here.......

Brands like Hydrogrow seem to roughly fit my formula, while Lighthouse/Blackstar units are about half that cost, yet still some dough to spend for a decent size grow. Not sure which to go with. Guess I'm still too cheap for either for the moment. Haven't noticed much real price drop over the years, any reason to believe it's coming any time soon?

Thanks,
P

 

[Jnugg]

With five very different bagseed plants around a 400w vert barebulb...Oh,and in soil!

I bet with five monocropped cuts of the same mom I do a pound to a pound plus.

In a 4x6 area I would have to use 2x 600w HPS's and bet I could do 1.5+ pounds per light.At only 1.5 pounds per 600w HPS in a 4x6 that's 48oz....6 more ounces than your harvest.

At 1.75 pounds per 600w HPS that would be 56oz...That's 14oz better than your yield.

If you want to get into math that is.