any new lights out to see?

[habeeb]

Habeeb, you know how I feel about LEDs, I think. Like Positivity, most of my interest lies in lighting (well, and the various control components.....). I've been a little reluctant to draw the comparison between LEDs and the CDM lamps because of how much time, energy, money, etc, that I have invested in them, but I haven't seen anything that will touch the results from the 315. I've been running that same Purple Crack clone for over four years now, and these buds are easily double the size of any that I've grown before and they still have about 3 weeks to go. And this is with the "wrong" lamp.

Fucking amazing, I think.

rives, I do think I know where you stand, for sakes you taught me everything I know about led

I can't say I know the answer either. but I do know watt per watt I'm getting better results for the led panel. I still have some testing to do on each of the sides though, and LED is far more expensive, and the time involved to build, that clear winner goes to CDM.

now lets think, I believe this year??? cree comes out with more products, and I believe the 10 watt replacement to the XM-l2. now with pressure for someone to become king ( maybe there never will be considering how many led companies there are now ) but right now I would say were sitting at 120 lpw, and by the end of this year I would expect 135-140 , samsung just released a 143 lpw 5000k cobb ( veg ), and 130 lpw at 3000k ( flower ).. now we know the CDM is like 105 lpw, with a fantastic spectrum,, but let's admit how long cdm can keep up with led tech, I think not very long...

I think the obvious main problem here is many things with led.. no one has built with newest chips, as the chips keep changing, and voltage requirements change, as does size of the chips, making it , if anyone undertook it a very very hard project to sell as you would have to make a panel that could accommodate these changes, and have customers who would switch out to the newest, along with wiring to plug and play hopefully.. then we get into things like optics, as no one really knows, and general testing of spectrum, maybe along with added individual colors to full in or add to the spectrum..

now, from what I've been seeing, we have a predicament off what power to run the led, the higher the more your blasting an area, so you pull up, well that costs you lumens, run a smaller chip, you need more and then we talk of penetration... as it's going though, I think were going to end up with 4-8 cobbs in some built reflector.. that's how I see this ending in terms of commercial products for people.

now how I got my results, which I think is more demanding, is first building a led with fans, I've tested, and no fans do lose you some light. I also had my lights about 1 inch from the tops, making the most of the light, but you have to move the lights everyday, sometimes twice in the first set of flower stretch.


sorry, I have much time invested in led's.. but I think the main answer to all of this is outdoor, free powerful sun. let'ss admit, all this lighting, is doing nothing good to our environment / planet / pollution... for our own greed of controlling plants in a indoor environment...

my end idea is to have supplemental led lighting in greenhouses / cold frames / mini outdoor setups.. which is why I've also been expanding outdoor knowledge / growing, as maybe in our lifetime people will be forced outdoor based on maybe many factors ( cost of electric, mindset, encouraged by governments, world catastrophe, call to the wild... .... )

anyways I'll end it there.. I think in a proper right setup, even un-known to me right now LED can surpass CDM, and will do so easier and easier as time goes on..

please remember, my opinions only

This is what the xml l2 are doing. Pic was day 35 I think..lots more to grow still. Uv running 12hrs is yellowing the closest plants to the fixture at the top of picture. Pretty good..high quality dense nugs. Still room for improvement with penetration, gotta try them with lenses again one day.

dude, what's that light or bar your using? I WANT TO KNOW.. haha .. is it just a makersledd heatsink?

also what wattage are you running right now with that setup?

 

[positivity]

About 350w on the heatsink USA t slot. Been changing leds around trying different things. Added some luxeon es blues and exotic violet to the original all 660 on my 700ma channel. Works great so far..don't see myself buying a commercial light anymore

 

[rives]

Interesting that you are getting better results per watt with LEDs - that isn't my experience at all. I'll be very interested to see how this Purple Crack run comes out, but looking at the number of plants and size of the buds, I wouldn't be surprised if it is pushing close to double my previous best runs with LEDs. And the amazing thing to me is that there is obviously still some being left on the table!

The LPW is an interesting figure and a good benchmark, but it misses being a good measure of reality from what I see. The overall spectrum and intensity appear to be much more important to yield. One of the biggest reasons that LEDs initially appealed to me was that they theoretically enable you to target precisely the spectrum that the plant utilizes. The red/blue NASA model grows some pretty damn nice plants, but at the expense of needing other lighting to see what is really going on with your plants and making in difficult to enjoy your time with them because of the resultant weird colors. Additionally, the 2-color fixtures don't really seem to completely fulfill the plant's potential. Unfortunately, trying to find the other colors that are needed to round out the spectrum has become a matter of flinging shit at the wall to see what sticks - companies using 8, 10, 12 colors of LEDs to get there seems counter-productive to me. It's like trying to do a wall-sized mural in needlepoint - it can be done, but why? My suspicion is that the companies are making these fixtures available with little to no testing. The only fixture that I've seen that really enables the necessary testing is the Radiant that Oneshot ran, and it would take years of rigorous side-by-side testing to arrive at an answer.

With my Lumigrow or my Hybrid fixture, I was using from 330w to around 400w +/- to cover a 30" x 30" scrog screen. Getting the screen filled properly took a good bit of effort and careful attention to timing. The Lumi would barely cover the area, and worked better with a couple of 55w PL-Ls filling out the short sides of the light pattern, so the total wattage went up to 440w. I'm still trying to find the limits of the 315, which at the moment is dealing very well with (5) 3-1/2' tall plants in a 4x4 tent. I would bet that if I had used smaller pots (they need to fit over my catch pan), I could have put 9 plants in there without much reduction in per-plant yield. All from a single 315, which operates at an agreeable spectrum for my eyes and brain. With some careful Ebay sourcing, the cost of putting the 315 together was pennies on the dollar in comparison to the Hybrid. The Bell hood was a little frustrating to deal with, but nothing in comparison to building the Hybrid. It has the additional benefit of actually being easier to control the temperature with - while the LEDs don't put out much heat, there is no easy way to duct it out of the tent other than wholesale air exchange.

Interesting stuff!

 

[Hammerhead]

I know there making LED'S with the new 10w Cree leds now. a small unit with these 10w in it was being demos at my local store. have not seen any on the shelf yet.

 

[positivity]

Very good points rives. Eventually I'll try a cmh out, if the quality meets or exceeds led then it will be time to put leds on the back burner. Thanks for sharing how well they work

 

[rives]

Very good points rives. Eventually I'll try a cmh out, if the quality meets or exceeds led then it will be time to put leds on the back burner. Thanks for sharing how well they work

If you decide to head that direction, make sure that you get the 315w CDM Elite lamp rather than the standard CMH gear. While I have run MH extensively in the past, I had never tried CMH prior to this, but other people have found the difference between the older-style CMH and the CDM to be profound.

 

[habeeb]

Interesting that you are getting better results per watt with LEDs - that isn't my experience at all. I'll be very interested to see how this Purple Crack run comes out, but looking at the number of plants and size of the buds, I wouldn't be surprised if it is pushing close to double my previous best runs with LEDs. And the amazing thing to me is that there is obviously still some being left on the table!

yeah it is odd, I think, as my one guess what would work, does, so i could only imagine tweaking would make it better.. which I am slowly getting to..

I agree to that also, I think there is room to grow on my led and cdm knowledge . testing . understanding.. I running a overloaded cdm run, and will be interesting to see the results compared to last run, as it's the same strain, different setup ( many many topped single plant with about 30 tops accessing the light )

The LPW is an interesting figure and a good benchmark, but it misses being a good measure of reality from what I see. The overall spectrum and intensity appear to be much more important to yield. One of the biggest reasons that LEDs initially appealed to me was that they theoretically enable you to target precisely the spectrum that the plant utilizes. The red/blue NASA model grows some pretty damn nice plants, but at the expense of needing other lighting to see what is really going on with your plants and making in difficult to enjoy your time with them because of the resultant weird colors. Additionally, the 2-color fixtures don't really seem to completely fulfill the plant's potential. Unfortunately, trying to find the other colors that are needed to round out the spectrum has become a matter of flinging shit at the wall to see what sticks - companies using 8, 10, 12 colors of LEDs to get there seems counter-productive to me. It's like trying to do a wall-sized mural in needlepoint - it can be done, but why? My suspicion is that the companies are making these fixtures available with little to no testing. The only fixture that I've seen that really enables the necessary testing is the Radiant that Oneshot ran, and it would take years of rigorous side-by-side testing to arrive at an answer.

agree. which is why I think I can achieve more with the led given it's so damn close, the cdm is not run 1 1/2 inches away.. as is the led, making the most efficient use of the lamp possible.. how much closer could I get it???

I think the spectrum will be tweaked more, or multiple chip led, once they..in my mind overtake the whole growing industry, companies will target chips with say a four color setup on one chip, say 2 whites, a 660 and maybe 630 .. but when I start looking at hps graphs / les / cdm.. and we know hps yields so well, it's missing 660, and if you look at WW led, they almost look like HPS charts...

I think there so much we don't know, it's not even funny.

I'm with you, I hate the trippy look, which is why I promote DIY white led, or reds with a dimmer. and yes I think plants like more then red / blue.

agree. this testing needed would be years and years to play with colors and what influence, and what is combining with and hurting what.. I'm sure all plant scientists are shocked at HPS growth when the red is lacking... it must stun them I'm sure.

well we even saw what a flop 600 of led can do ( the radiant ) which to me is an example it matters how you setup the led ( AKA not is some tiny area to cover 4x4 tray... )

I'm not saying this as I think I have the best LED... way far from it actually, and as built using little knowledge.. I built it wanting it to be the best.. that was the intention, and intention takes us far with action.. and if I could I would build it different with my knowledge, and maybe some of it was by accident, but I used the best thermal stars ( well actually no, that's copper, I used aluminum , other sink has copper ) , I used WW only, no NW or CW. I used fans, I used a lot of heatsink, I used the best led available, I spread the led out.. this created a very good flower lamp, but as I said I can do even better now... but honestlY I'm tired after work, and can't fiddle as I use to, or maybe want to, as building led I find is better for small spaces, which I am expanding at a rapid rate, so it's not quite as lucrative to me to play around with colors, testing, this and that when my return is nil now, then what it use to be.. I tired to tell people some of these principles, but they didn't seem to listen, which made it harder to be into then.. I know of no one who has 8 different built led lamps, and still no one really listened to my advice what I gained with one run, using them.. does it sound like I want to continue?

I think 10% of the time, someone should go built, and even then, I am at a loss how to correctly lay it out.. I have some ideas, but there ideas.. actually I have shit loads of ideas for led waiting to be used, but not really like I want to just hand them over to the led manufactures.. everything they have implemented I have already thought of before they did it.. remember I was using led since the ufo came out / procyon ( thing was hot as all hell ).. but to my knowledge I would tell people you would most likely fit to buy a cdm and enjoy, only that special few would I say or recommend building a led, as really there's not much gain then being different.. it will cost you time / energy / money..

With my Lumigrow or my Hybrid fixture, I was using from 330w to around 400w +/- to cover a 30" x 30" scrog screen. Getting the screen filled properly took a good bit of effort and careful attention to timing. The Lumi would barely cover the area, and worked better with a couple of 55w PL-Ls filling out the short sides of the light pattern, so the total wattage went up to 440w. I'm still trying to find the limits of the 315, which at the moment is dealing very well with (5) 3-1/2' tall plants in a 4x4 tent. I would bet that if I had used smaller pots (they need to fit over my catch pan), I could have put 9 plants in there without much reduction in per-plant yield. All from a single 315, which operates at an agreeable spectrum for my eyes and brain. With some careful Ebay sourcing, the cost of putting the 315 together was pennies on the dollar in comparison to the Hybrid. The Bell hood was a little frustrating to deal with, but nothing in comparison to building the Hybrid. It has the additional benefit of actually being easier to control the temperature with - while the LEDs don't put out much heat, there is no easy way to duct it out of the tent other than wholesale air exchange.

I think the lumi problem is obviously now, outdated, second using too high wattage chips / too much watt in a small area.. once I found these flaw, among the noise mainly, I dumped them immediately, even though they were costly, I know it wasn't going to get me where I wanted.. I knew also led gained efficient every year, making my lamp obsolete in 1 year of purchase.

tell me,, I don't even know how much m led playing has costs me.... way to much to even want to add up.. hell I have $600 in xm-l2 WW needing a home, and countless CW xm-l2 I cant even sell on ebay, I have laying around what some people might consider gold.. to me right now it's a headache I don't want to deal with.. the cdm was pleasurable to build.. most likely to your instruction !! , and simply it's 315 easily / cheaply built.. with a great return..

I just think, our time with CDM is limited, sure they might come out with some higher wattage, keeping our interest, but I guess my bet is the future is led if any of us like it or not.. it's only limited by imagination / design / testing.. I mean this as in I don't think cdm is obsolete nest year.. I think the main problem is quality people / companies wanting to build the best led light, and might be in part with funding, I mean let's admit, the challenge is PHILLIPS, doesn't seem like an easy task to walk away with an award from.. but I do think it's doable, and even today from what I've seen, and easier and easier as time goes on..

I've actually come to dislike led from the ease of CDM, but honestly my heart lays with it even having to say that.. I believe in the brightest ideas, and I think LED will take us there.. but DIY might look like complete SHIT., so be warned.. HAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHA

Interesting stuff!

indeed

 

[habeeb]

I know there making LED'S with the new 10w Cree leds now. a small unit with these 10w in it was being demos at my local store. have not seen any on the shelf yet.

interesting, a name of the company do you know to look up?

 

[rives]

Damn that font color is hard to read!

Yep, building LED fixtures is a hell of a lot of fun and very gratifying, the frustrating part to me is how time consuming & expensive it is to upgrade them when the better widget gets introduced. And since the better widget seems to come along about every 15 minutes, perhaps my efforts should be directed to building a fixture that is easily upgradeable as one of the critical design parameters.

I think that the 315 is a direct result of pressure being put on the HID market from LEDs. HIDs have been largely unchanged for a long time now, and in order for some more development to take place they needed to lose some market share. Competition is a good thing - we will see the lighting technology leadership swap back and forth for some time to come, I hope.

 

[habeeb]

yeah sorry rivesy.. was at night, wife was sleeping, and was using the touchscreen... my apologies, I saw it after I wrote it and I cringed

completely with ya.. F'in hell to change out / expenses. I think the main thing, even for me is the hard part is the money thrown at building one and the coverage it does for how expensive they are / time put for researching and building. as I said the bigger the space the more DIY doesn't seem to fit. right now I have 8 tents, I couldn't imagine in hell switching out / upgrading / changing that many LED lights.. no way.. it's why I run 2 bought panels as I cannot build them all.

yes, I thought of this right after I wrote my last thing. I love how there is competition, it only means we profit off of it.. no matter the direction companies / consumers go, things only get better in this hobby as time goes on, that's guaranteed.

Damn that font color is hard to read!

Yep, building LED fixtures is a hell of a lot of fun and very gratifying, the frustrating part to me is how time consuming & expensive it is to upgrade them when the better widget gets introduced. And since the better widget seems to come along about every 15 minutes, perhaps my efforts should be directed to building a fixture that is easily upgradeable as one of the critical design parameters.

I think that the 315 is a direct result of pressure being put on the HID market from LEDs. HIDs have been largely unchanged for a long time now, and in order for some more development to take place they needed to lose some market share. Competition is a good thing - we will see the lighting technology leadership swap back and forth for some time to come, I hope.

 

[maxweber77]

Very interesting discussion. I follow you.
Good job.

 

[wantaknow]

can you post a picture of the 315 ?thanks

 

[rives]

can you post a picture of the 315 ?thanks

I'm not quite sure what you want specifically, but this is what the fixtures that I put together look like.

 

[kkmmbb]

Just bought three of these new COB chips. 30w 6000-6500k, around 1000-1100lm i think. Hope its succesfull, then ill use only COB in the future!

http://www.ebay.com/itm/3W-5W-7W-9W...?pt=AU_Lighting_Fans&var=&hash=item19e4ee213d