Question to runoff wisperers

[AloeRuss]

Hello
As I mentioned this is my first grow in coco, that is why I am paying attention to everything.

I always had somewhat of an issue reading runoff properly, now more then ever, so please help. (just to mention, I still have 5 buckets with sunshine mix growing in the same room)

I fed my plants tonight. Ph going in was 5.9; ppm was 950
Runoff from coco was - ph 6.1; ppm 1950
Runoff from peat moss- ph 6.0; ppm 1550

Please help me desypher it and help me learn on your readings.

Coconutz - this is not my first rodeo. I am just trying to learn things, and really mean no harm to you in any way, so if you can help I welcome it.

Thank you all

 

[Snow Crash]

Hello
As I mentioned this is my first grow in coco, that is why I am paying attention to everything.

I always had somewhat of an issue reading runoff properly, now more then ever, so please help. (just to mention, I still have 5 buckets with sunshine mix growing in the same room)

I fed my plants tonight. Ph going in was 5.9; ppm was 950
Runoff from coco was - ph 6.1; ppm 1950
Runoff from peat moss- ph 6.0; ppm 1550

Please help me desypher it and help me learn on your readings.

Coconutz - this is not my first rodeo. I am just trying to learn things, and really mean no harm to you in any way, so if you can help I welcome it.

Thank you all

The runoff readings in a snapshot don't tell you much, if anything. It's more about collecting the data and building a pattern, or model, over time that can be used to better tune the system from grow to grow.

PPM is a terrible way of communicating nutrient solution strength. Firstly, it's a total guess; a conversion based on the electrical conductivity of a simple salt solution. Some conversions used are 0.44, 0.5, 0.6, 0.66, and 0.7. I don't know what conversion you are using, or how that compares to my own conversion. But the EC on my meter is the same as the EC on your meter. So stop using PPM and start using EC when talking about nutrient strength. Even then... Chelates and organic molecules can further skew comparisons from one grow to another. While 950ppm seems outrageously high for a coco grow to me, that's because I think in a "0.5" conversion and imagine you using 1.9ec solution. If you're on a 0.7 conversion then that'd be more like 1.36ec which is very reasonable. So here... it's impossible to really say if what you're doing is correct because I just don't have the right information to use.

The pH readings of your runoff are not valuable. Some elements go into the coco, some elements come out, but they will all impact the output solution in a way that is not representative of the pH of the media. To accomplish this you will need to do a "slurry test." Run a google search for "coco slurry test" (canna nutrients has a good one). Slurry tests are also an accurate look at the EC as well, but they are time consuming and invasive of the roots so you want to minimize them whenever possible and use it only when the plants look unhealthy and you cannot understand why.

It has been my experience that when the runoff EC is more than 30% stronger than the solution EC then I tend to have issues with my plants soon afterwards. So if I were to use a 1.0ec solution then the highest runoff I would want is 1.3ec. If I notice my EC climbing every day. 1.1ec runoff on monday. 1.2ec runoff tuesday, 1.3ec runoff wednesday... Then that's indicating the amount of food I have been feeding has been too much for that time of growth. Now, it's hard to say on Thursday if I should really change my schedule. The plant is larger after 4 days of growth... maybe 1.0ec is perfect for Thursday... So that's why its important not to react too aggressively to runoff.

At that point, when the pattern indicates a little excess food, I make a note in my notebook to avoid this the next time around and I also increase my runoff volumes for a few days to maintain my nutrient strength and ratios but help eliminate some of the buildup in the media to keep the chemistry in better balance.

In your case I am seeing 2x the volume of elements washing out in your runoff compared to what is going in. This is a representation of the buildup of elements in the media. Collecting extra runoff (30%-50% of what is used) at your next feeding is a good method to prevent these readings from getting any higher. The measurements you are getting might be an indication that either your coco started with a very high charge of elements (decomp/pretreatment) or that your nutrient strength has been excessive for a time. In either case though, more runoff with a balanced nutrient solution is going to remedy the buildup without starving your plants. Ideally, before any negative health symptoms appear as a result of the condition of your system.

 

[whatthe215]

i always make sure my runoff is lower than my feed. if things are chugging along perfectly and they're really eating, i like to see ~.9EC runoff from a 1.4EC feed.

often it's just .1EC lower than what i feed, but it's definitely never higher. if runoff is higher EC than your feed, you've got salt buildup. could be caused by too high of an EC or something else. are you feeding the sunshine and coco the same? they should be fed differently.

i don't check pH, if ppms are in line than i know ph is fine. but when i do check, it's always ~6.2-6.4. i swing my ph 5.6-5.9 all week.

 

[willyweed]

i would start with a slightly lower ph ,the range is 5.5- 6.2 ph .so by starting yours at 5.9 i would guess it is a little high! when plants are feeding normally the ph will swing up as they dry out a bit . i aim for 5.6 -5.7 start ph and then it will just swing up a bit over time which is what you want to happen! also i would get a bottle of cal mag and h202 ,just incase of emergencies ! the run off should tell you the same story. all the best .ww

 

[papaduc]

The only time you should be checking your run off is when you buy your coco and are checking it before you use it. You fill a small 1L pot and you run through some ph checked water. What comes out of the bottom should be in a good range for growing in. That tells you it's properly rinsed and buffered. If your supplier says the coco is not pre-fertilised, the ec should also be low. For example if they guarantee a 0.2ec and give you a guaranteed analysis, it should be 0.2 ec that comes out. No more than a 0.1 rise anyway.

If it's pre-fertilised then all you're doing is checking the ph.

If run off figures were a sound mathematical guide to plant problems, the simple and blunt truth of it is that those people who check them religiously would never see even a bit of tip burn in their garden.

You can check your run off once in a while if you're curious about it, but don't use it religiously to guide you from feed to feed.

You judge what you feed only by what your plants look like, and if you can do that accurately you'll never need to check your run off for anything.

 

[Coconutz]

Hello
As I mentioned this is my first grow in coco, that is why I am paying attention to everything.

I always had somewhat of an issue reading runoff properly, now more then ever, so please help. (just to mention, I still have 5 buckets with sunshine mix growing in the same room)

I fed my plants tonight. Ph going in was 5.9; ppm was 950
Runoff from coco was - ph 6.1; ppm 1950
Runoff from peat moss- ph 6.0; ppm 1550

Please help me desypher it and help me learn on your readings.

Coconutz - this is not my first rodeo. I am just trying to learn things, and really mean no harm to you in any way, so if you can help I welcome it.

Thank you all

Hey homie! I mean no harm when I talk shit! Just trying ta help!
I see snow and papa have already stopped by so Im sure they have led you in the right direction.
All I can add is that I never check my runoff because everything runs so smooth when I just keep it simple.
Honestly I dont get very much runoff. I just make sure the pots get wet. If I dont see a little drip out I will hit them with a little more water.
When I first get new coco I rinse it with 1/2 strength nutes just to start from a clean slate and not second guess anything. That way if issues arise I can eliminate several possible causes right away. Diagnosing the issue immediately is critical in a fast paced growing cycle. We have little time to build the plants and put weight on them without them getting too big. Shit has to be dialed by flower because the clock is ticking!
Ive had problems in coco when I was feeding at the strength you are feeding. When I checked my runoff it was also very high like yours.
I used to think 900ppm was light enough, but its not! Especially not with additives...
I feed closer to 1.2ec 6oo ppm and only use silica.
When I give my plants a PK blast its usually about 1.5ec or 750 ppm and I only do that like 3-4 times in the plants entire life.
In veg Ive found that anything much more than 1.0-1.2ec is too much and cause drooping plants and fucked up issues.
5.5ph is where I aim for, but if its at 6.0 I dont always adjust it. I dont spend much time playing with nutes.
Keep your coco wet to avoid salts drying up and spiking your ec and ph

 

[Coconutz]

The runoff readings in a snapshot don't tell you much, if anything. It's more about collecting the data and building a pattern, or model, over time that can be used to better tune the system from grow to grow.

PPM is a terrible way of communicating nutrient solution strength. Firstly, it's a total guess; a conversion based on the electrical conductivity of a simple salt solution. Some conversions used are 0.44, 0.5, 0.6, 0.66, and 0.7. I don't know what conversion you are using, or how that compares to my own conversion. But the EC on my meter is the same as the EC on your meter. So stop using PPM and start using EC when talking about nutrient strength. Even then... Chelates and organic molecules can further skew comparisons from one grow to another. While 950ppm seems outrageously high for a coco grow to me, that's because I think in a "0.5" conversion and imagine you using 1.9ec solution. If you're on a 0.7 conversion then that'd be more like 1.36ec which is very reasonable. So here... it's impossible to really say if what you're doing is correct because I just don't have the right information to use.

The pH readings of your runoff are not valuable. Some elements go into the coco, some elements come out, but they will all impact the output solution in a way that is not representative of the pH of the media. To accomplish this you will need to do a "slurry test." Run a google search for "coco slurry test" (canna nutrients has a good one). Slurry tests are also an accurate look at the EC as well, but they are time consuming and invasive of the roots so you want to minimize them whenever possible and use it only when the plants look unhealthy and you cannot understand why.

It has been my experience that when the runoff EC is more than 30% stronger than the solution EC then I tend to have issues with my plants soon afterwards. So if I were to use a 1.0ec solution then the highest runoff I would want is 1.3ec. If I notice my EC climbing every day. 1.1ec runoff on monday. 1.2ec runoff tuesday, 1.3ec runoff wednesday... Then that's indicating the amount of food I have been feeding has been too much for that time of growth. Now, it's hard to say on Thursday if I should really change my schedule. The plant is larger after 4 days of growth... maybe 1.0ec is perfect for Thursday... So that's why its important not to react too aggressively to runoff.

At that point, when the pattern indicates a little excess food, I make a note in my notebook to avoid this the next time around and I also increase my runoff volumes for a few days to maintain my nutrient strength and ratios but help eliminate some of the buildup in the media to keep the chemistry in better balance.

In your case I am seeing 2x the volume of elements washing out in your runoff compared to what is going in. This is a representation of the buildup of elements in the media. Collecting extra runoff (30%-50% of what is used) at your next feeding is a good method to prevent these readings from getting any higher. The measurements you are getting might be an indication that either your coco started with a very high charge of elements (decomp/pretreatment) or that your nutrient strength has been excessive for a time. In either case though, more runoff with a balanced nutrient solution is going to remedy the buildup without starving your plants. Ideally, before any negative health symptoms appear as a result of the condition of your system.

Ive found that this is impossible to take that seriously because the test isnt accurate enough to judge if its .1 or .2 higher than the last day.
There could have been more water run through, or more moisture already in the pot, it might be a different time of the day and so on and so forth... The pen could have been off slightly from one day to the next, or it could have been between .1 and .2 but showed .1 etc, etc
I just keep it simple and dont tweak out on them and learn one grow to the next where things can be simplified to improve my results and reduce the amount of workload.
Dont get me wrong, I love spending time with my plants, but Id rather be there taking care of the plants than working out a spreadsheet or tinkering with dry salts and ratio formulas.
Some things I would have missed if I didnt have every second possible to be fondling my girls!
God damn I cant imagine how people ever stick with an AN schedule. I have enough work here maintaining a clean & stable environment.
I think that company is designed to weed out the newbs! Make shit so complicated they never figure out what they did wrong and think they need another supplement to fix the issues!

 

[Snow Crash]

I've always found the "Man, I'm so smart and good at gardening. But I cannot, for the life of me, understand how to measure something and add it to water. I mean, maybe 2 or 3 bottles, but that's like, pushing it and really hard for me to understand."

lol. To each their own. Collecting available data never hurts anyone. Reducing variables should be obvious (like feeding at the same time of day and recording the volume in and volume out along with the other info). A plant that looks unhealthy (over fed) will have runoff that is high. It's a pretty simple and easy correlation to make and if you have a head on your shoulders and a little common sense avoiding ever getting to that point even as a new gardener is pretty simple to do if you keep good data. After 3-4 grows the idea is to not have to collect data because you should have a good idea of what's in there already. It takes experience, and data collection reduces the learning curve. That's all...

 

[papaduc]

I don't agree with that snowcrash and I understand where coconutz is coming from to be honest. It's not a matter of intelligence. Anyone can grow weed using even the most basic regime.

What coconutz alludes to is what you already said yourself - that run off measurements are not an accurate way of determining what is going on in the rootzone. Not to 0.1ec from grow to grow anyway.

They're a rough guide, and sometimes they're not even that, and that's the ultimate flaw in the reasoning. Sometimes run off can be as high as 3.0 and the plants can be healthy and fine. Salts can build up which are not made up of plant available nutrients. Again, this is another major factor in not being able to use them to guide as accurately as some people make out.

It's not that people haven't got the intelligence to process basic information, but that maybe they know the information isn't as reliable as that provided by the appearance of the plant.

That's a question of your chosen methods and techniques and there's nothing to say you should be checking your run off because it will improve your results.

If they were, for sure, collecting data will give you a cast iron guarantee of what to do on the next run. The fact is, variables change from one grow to the next and even the fellas hitting the highest numbers will testify to that. Sure, you aim to make them as consistent as you can, but you can't guarantee a result to mirror the last to the kind of accuracy you're implying. Not in my opinion anyway.

Like coconutz said, your ec pen might be out 0.1 from one grow to the next... or your tap water might be that much different. This is not lab grade equipment we're using.

Even the temperature of your run off has to be the same! And can easily account for a 0.2 swing. Remember that.

Data from one grow to the next is only accurate if all the other variables are the same. Even clones don't grow the same one grow to the next so what governs what's being fed and in what ratio should only be based on what the plant looks like, not data from the last grow. That's my belief anyway.

Spreadsheets don't allow for the flexibility that you need when your variables are changing week to week. In a lab environment yes, in an indoor grow, no.

I've always said this and I maintain it to this day - Once you've got good control over your plants, run off tells you no more than your plants do. Personally I'd forget about it. But each to their own way of doing things.

 

[AloeRuss]

Snow, coconutz, papa - gentleman. It is hard to assemble more knowledgable panel.
I, myself not a big "runoff measure" grower and not anal as far as numbers concern. I prefer to spend quality time with my plants and bein attentive to them on an individual basis.

The reason to my current venture into the runoff topic is because (Snow already knows this) I went from Peat Moss to Coco and this medium is complete gray to me. So I am just looking at everything.
The reason to the switch was money. I got 20 qubic feet of Tupur coco for free, but piece of mind is more expensive then $300. I knew it but I did it anyway
Thankfully enough, King Luie growing superb.
Other then those fucking gnats I have no problem.

So far 2 1/2 weeks in coco did not give me any deffitiencies or other problems whatsoever.
I just finished prunning and dressing them in tomato cages last night. I will give them 3 days to recover and then flip to bloom.
Hope for the best.

Thank you guys. Piece and Love.
PS. Coconutz. I know you are smart on gardening and I would love to get your opinions if I ever need one.

 

[papaduc]

I, myself not a big "runoff measure" grower and not anal as far as numbers concern. I prefer to spend quality time with my plants and bein attentive to them on an individual basis.

Then keep with that approach because it's the best way. There's no replacement for good hands on skills, whether you're hydro, soil or coco.

I went from Peat Moss to Coco and this medium is complete gray to me.

There are so many myths relating to growing in coco. You don't need calmag, you don't need copious amounts of run off, you don't need to pre-flush and buffer it (unless it isn't washed and buffered to begin with, which it should be)

Apart from checking the ph and ec of your feed, the exact same principles apply in regards to keeping the plants healthy. If you didn't check your run off in compost, you don't need to in coco.