The growing large plants, outdoors, thread...

[GreenHands13]

Imho I beleive its always best to use whats native to your area for example if your in the cascades lava rock is plentiful and should be utilized if you in the sierras dg is everywhere and should be utilized. No perlite pumice or lava rock for me im at 4600 on the east slopes of the sierras I have dg everywhere so my holes are cut with 25% dg. The reason I believe this is because in order for plants to properly uptake trace minerals they have to be chelated in order to be chelated you have to have the proper ligands in your mix. Native soils that are high in trace minerals contain all the ligands necessary for chelation. Keeping it local if you can is your best bet imo.

 

[NorCalDreaming]

Imho I beleive its always best to use whats native to your area for example if your in the cascades lava rock is plentiful and should be utilized if you in the sierras dg is everywhere and should be utilized. No perlite pumice or lava rock for me im at 4600 on the east slopes of the sierras I have dg everywhere so my holes are cut with 25% dg. The reason I believe this is because in order for plants to properly uptake trace minerals they have to be chelated in order to be chelated you have to have the proper ligands in your mix. Native soils that are high in trace minerals contain all the ligands necessary for chelation. Keeping it local if you can is your best bet imo.

OK so I'm lost with the ligand thing and will need to research a bit more so can't comment. I think one of the best reasons to use local materials when possible is lower cost and better use of natural resources (ie burning fuel to harvest/mine/etc. and ship). Also no reason to import something if something local works just fine. Seems part of your position is when using native soil. If analyzing native soil you can see what you're starting with and how to amend it to get the desired end mix. For the most part I do not see growers using native soil in their mixes and basically starting from scratch for pots, mounds, raised beds and trenches buying from local soil manufacturers, nurseries or bagged stuff like Ocean Forest or Black Gold. Under these growing conditions the medium is so isolated from native soil what does it matter if you're using native materials or not. Still though the mix will only be as good as formulated and what other materials such as top dressings, teas, foliars, etc. are used through the growing season. It doesn't make sense to import basalt if local decomposed granite will do the job and if not then have to figure out what else to add to make up for any inadequacies.

 

[OrganicBuds]

I thought all the big outdoor growers recycle their soil? You guys adding mounds, or not recycling? To me the winning soil mix is a balanced mix with lots of organic matter, 5 years old, in a no till garden. Why is everybody reinventing their soil mixes?

 

[GseeG]

I thought all the big outdoor growers recycle their soil? You guys adding mounds, or not recycling? To me the winning soil mix is a balanced mix with lots of organic matter, 5 years old, in a no till garden. Why is everybody reinventing their soil mixes?

the couple hundred yards that ive got going over the years is going to be the platform for the new pots to sit on. beats the shit outta clay and should allow for a beautiful cover.

with that being said im not that happy with the mix i got last year, so i will be building my own and only have myself to blame.

 

[NorCalDreaming]

I thought all the big outdoor growers recycle their soil? You guys adding mounds, or not recycling? To me the winning soil mix is a balanced mix with lots of organic matter, 5 years old, in a no till garden. Why is everybody reinventing their soil mixes?

I didn't say people were reinventing their soil mixes. Mainly was saying where I see a lot of people start from. I agree the best scenario is to build and adjust your soil over time. The point I was attempting to make was that I don't think it matters if you're using local mineral sources such as granite, basalt, etc. if your mix is balanced properly to take into consideration ANY imbalances/inadequacies with what you're using.

From what I understand Full Circle Compost in Nevada has done about 1,000 soil test on native soil in their area and adjusted their mixes to take into consideration local inadequacies/imbalances. A soil test doesn't care if it's lava, granite, basalt or Azomite.

 

[GseeG]

A soil test doesn't care if it's lava, granite, basalt or Azomite.

I do and understanding how they will act, especially on the long term is very important to me.

 

[NorCalDreaming]

I do and understanding how they will act, especially on the long term is very important to me.

I totally hear that and good point. I was talking to someone here in the Organic thread some time back under a different handle and the subject was greensand. He was telling me that greensand lasted X years in soil so not good to use for relying on certain elements/minerals present. I talked to John Kempf and he said that's true if you're biological activity in the soil is low otherwise elements present will be available much faster and in much higher concentrations.

 

[GreenHands13]

I didn't say people were reinventing their soil mixes. Mainly was saying where I see a lot of people start from. I agree the best scenario is to build and adjust your soil over time. The point I was attempting to make was that I don't think it matters if you're using local mineral sources such as granite, basalt, etc. if your mix is balanced properly to take into consideration ANY imbalances/inadequacies with what you're using.

From what I understand Full Circle Compost in Nevada has done about 1,000 soil test on native soil in their area and adjusted their mixes to take into consideration local inadequacies/imbalances. A soil test doesn't care if it's lava, granite, basalt or Azomite.

Your right a soil test doesnt care but you can have a soil test done that shows an optimal amount of trace minerals but if those trace minerals dont have the ligands to make them available the soil test means nothing. If your in an area that has no basalt or pumice native to that area how can you be sure that the ligands necessary to make thoses traces available are present? The same thing goes for your soils microherd certain microbes dont thrive in some areas and do great in others. Your native soil has whats called champion microbes microbes that survive and thrive in your area. This is why imo buying beneficials to add to soil or tea is unnecessary brew teas with the soil your plants are growing because the champion strains on beneficals are already there adding microbes not from your area will cause the microherd in your soil to fight eachother for colonization. If the champion beneficials dont have to fight off all sorts of other microbes they can spend more time feeding the plant and keeping down bad fungi and bacteria. Of couse this is just mho. I also believe using native compost and soil promotes a self sustainable garden and thats what I think we are all trying to accomplish.

 

[Cep]

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[NorCalDreaming]

Your right a soil test doesnt care but you can have a soil test done that shows an optimal amount of trace minerals but if those trace minerals dont have the ligands to make them available the soil test means nothing. If your in an area that has no basalt or pumice native to that area how can you be sure that the ligands necessary to make thoses traces available are present? The same thing goes for your soils microherd certain microbes dont thrive in some areas and do great in others. Your native soil has whats called champion microbes microbes that survive and thrive in your area. This is why imo buying beneficials to add to soil or tea is unnecessary brew teas with the soil your plants are growing because the champion strains on beneficals are already there adding microbes not from your area will cause the microherd in your soil to fight eachother for colonization. If the champion beneficials dont have to fight off all sorts of other microbes they can spend more time feeding the plant and keeping down bad fungi and bacteria. Of couse this is just mho. I also believe using native compost and soil promotes a self sustainable garden and thats what I think we are all trying to accomplish.

That makes a lot of sense, can get my head around it and excellent info...thx. Those local microbes are acclimated to the climate and general soil composition. It would seem the further you get away from the local soil with mixes the less important the local microbes are. Since canna is not native to any area in the US maybe at least part of what peeps should do is make teas based on local wild herbs using the whole plant to take advantage of the benefits of the local culture. Maybe foliar applications, at the least, would be helpful in supporting a healthy phyllosphere even though canna is not native to any area in the US. If doing soil applications and the local champions get beat out then they are not best suited for the man-made mix the grower has created.

 

[NorCalDreaming]

GreenHands13 you might have some experience with this. I used to hang out with a grower who was at about 2,500' in the Sierra foothills. One season a friend of his grew the exact same cut of White Rhino at about 5,000'. The smoke from 5k grown basically using the same nute program was head and shoulders above the lower elevation stuff. I vaguely remember a Swiss study that showed higher elevation grown cannabis had a higher THC concentration while the lower elevation samples yielded higher. This goes to some of what Rev at Skunk believes which is plants are programmed for a certain amount of resin production. Less plant material ='s a higher ratio of cannabinoids then you also have the extra UV thing up higher.

Fast forward to dealing with a friend in CO who grows at 7,000' and he said adjustments are necessary in nute formulas at that elevation just like baking bread.

Any input?

 

[GreenHands13]

That makes a lot of sense, can get my head around it and excellent info...thx. Those local microbes are acclimated to the climate and general soil composition. It would seem the further you get away from the local soil with mixes the less important the local microbes are. Since canna is not native to any area in the US maybe at least part of what peeps should do is make teas based on local wild herbs using the whole plant to take advantage of the benefits of the local culture. Maybe foliar applications, at the least, would be helpful in supporting a healthy phyllosphere even though canna is not native to any area in the US. If doing soil applications and the local champions get beat out then they are not best suited for the man-made mix the grower has created.

Plants adapt to their enviornment for example sativa's adapted to lower elevations indicas higher elevations. As well as im sure every year you have to acclimate your plants outside right? Acclamating to your ecosystem your growing in is always going to be better than introducing outside organisms that fight with the established ones.

 

[GreenHands13]

[QUOTENorCalDreaming;6150284]GreenHands13 you might have some experience with this. I used to hang out with a grower who was at about 2,500' in the Sierra foothills. One season a friend of his grew the exact same cut of White Rhino at about 5,000'. The smoke from 5k grown basically using the same nute program was head and shoulders above the lower elevation stuff. I vaguely remember a Swiss study that showed higher elevation grown cannabis had a higher THC concentration while the lower elevation samples yielded higher. This goes to some of what Rev at Skunk believes which is plants are programmed for a certain amount of resin production. Less plant material ='s a higher ratio of cannabinoids then you also have the extra UV thing up higher.

Fast forward to dealing with a friend in CO who grows at 7,000' and he said adjustments are necessary in nute formulas at that elevation just like baking bread.

Any input?[/QUOTE]


There is a few theriories on the subject one is Cannabis has whats called genetic potential when factors like higher co2 levels come into cannabis' s enviornment it produces more plant material but genetic potential doesnt allow it to produce more thc only more plant material another is that thc is a uv protectent for the flowers. I believe both these factors are why higher elevation cannabis is more potent there are a lot of other factors like longer days and higher temps in low elevations play a role in it to. Imo

 

[NorCalDreaming]

Plants adapt to their enviornment for example sativa's adapted to lower elevations indicas higher elevations. As well as im sure every year you have to acclimate your plants outside right? Acclamating to your ecosystem your growing in is always going to be better than introducing outside organisms that fight with the established ones.

Basically that's what he does. For sure though the lower oxygen levels at higher elevation plays a part with soil microbial activity. I've said use this or that soil formula and he says it doesn't work. He starts new seeds now, on this full moon, in his sunroom and they go through some pretty cold periods. Not much makes it outdoors. Seems the best outdoor genetics, so far, are PoisonThunderfuck 99 which is (Alaskan/Matanuska Thunderfuck old school clone only x Durban Poison) x C99 male. The plants are done Sept 1, yield about 4 lbs each and very nice up smoke. The Durban influence helps the plants trigger early and the C99 helps with a short flower period and nice fragrance/flavor. He's finally getting a greenhouse and will get out of the CO clay/mud with his holes so I'm expecting his yield to kick up a notch this year.

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]There is a few theriories on the subject one is Cannabis has whats called genetic potential when factors like higher co2 levels come into cannabis' s enviornment it produces more plant material but genetic potential doesnt allow it to produce more thc only more plant material another is that thc is a uv protectent for the flowers. I believe both these factors are why higher elevation cannabis is more potent there are a lot of other factors like longer days and higher temps in low elevations play a role in it to. Imo[/FONT]

About basically what I understand. Thx for the confirmation.

 

[milkyjoe]

Imho I beleive its always best to use whats native to your area for example if your in the cascades lava rock is plentiful and should be utilized if you in the sierras dg is everywhere and should be utilized. No perlite pumice or lava rock for me im at 4600 on the east slopes of the sierras I have dg everywhere so my holes are cut with 25% dg. The reason I believe this is because in order for plants to properly uptake trace minerals they have to be chelated in order to be chelated you have to have the proper ligands in your mix. Native soils that are high in trace minerals contain all the ligands necessary for chelation. Keeping it local if you can is your best bet imo.

Ligands or organic acids are one way to make minerals from rock available. Another is bacteria which solubalizes the minerals and then shit them out chelated with amino acids instead of organic acids.

A biologically active soil will handle this for you.

 

[NorCalDreaming]

OK so just figured out/remembered a way for my friend at 7,000' to deal with the lower oxygen levels and could benefit all farmers. I started chatting with Tom Hill via PM a few years back and revealed he was using H2O2 to adjust the ORP value of his waterings/fertigations. Basically you stop getting any lag in growth after watering due to soil O2 level drops. I remember using Chemetrics tests for O2 levels when I was running hydro. Never got an O2 meter. Started looking at Leubkes and relative humus and stuff in relation to ORP and I got lost.

 

[FatherEarth]

OK so just figured out/remembered a way for my friend at 7,000' to deal with the lower oxygen levels and could benefit all farmers. I started chatting with Tom Hill via PM a few years back and revealed he was using H2O2 to adjust the ORP value of his waterings/fertigations. Basically you stop getting any lag in growth after watering due to soil O2 level drops. I remember using Chemetrics tests for O2 levels when I was running hydro. Never got an O2 meter. Started looking at Leubkes and relative humus and stuff in relation to ORP and I got lost.

Yea I have an ORP meter setting in the original case only used it once or twice.I also keep 30% h202 on hand at all times..Id love to try something new and put the meter to use... ... I thought T. Hill was using the ORP to dial in his foliar mixes....? A fine line using h202 in the soil and keeping a microbial herd alive and working...Im all ears.



Interested and listening,


FE

 

[Shcrews]

Cannabis Tissue Sample Sexing

Cannabis Tissue Sample Sexing

somebody recently informed me that SC Labs in Santa Cruz does plant sexing for $20 per tissue sample. You bring them a leaf from a vegging plant of any age and they can test it genetically and tell you if it's male or female. This friend of mine had a bunch of plants sexed by them.. Apparently he just brought them a cooler full of leaves, each one bagged and labelled. I dont think they have done this kind of test much because my friend said the lab technician was excited about it.

I'm not sure if SC Labs are the only ones who do this kind of test, but i thought this might be useful info for people in norcal or central cali area who are popping seeds soon, might make a new thread about it when i get my 2014 crop genetically sexed.
peace

 

[theJointedOne]

somebody recently informed me that SC Labs in Santa Cruz does plant sexing for $20 per tissue sample. You bring them a leaf from a vegging plant of any age and they can test it genetically and tell you if it's male or female. This friend of mine had a bunch of plants sexed by them.. Apparently he just brought them a cooler full of leaves, each one bagged and labelled. I dont think they have done this kind of test much because my friend said the lab technician was excited about it.

I'm not sure if SC Labs are the only ones who do this kind of test, but i thought this might be useful info for people in norcal or central cali area who are popping seeds soon, might make a new thread about it when i get my 2014 crop genetically sexed.
peace

I was just reading about this, here is the link , http://www.sclabs.com/our-advantage.html , its the 5th bullet point.

Very interesting imo.

 

[NorCalDreaming]

Ligands or organic acids are one way to make minerals from rock available. Another is bacteria which solubalizes the minerals and then shit them out chelated with amino acids instead of organic acids.

A biologically active soil will handle this for you.

Thx and as soon as he mentioned the bacteria thing the whole ligand thing made sense then. As for the 'champion' bacteria I'm wondering if they're actually archae. I know Rev at Skunk is big on Biozome and I have talked to the guy at Biozome, I think his name is Guy, some years back. From what I understand it's the archae that are really the ones responsible for a lot of the mineral solubilization. They make up a small portion of soil microbial population yet do a lot of the work.

It was Cootz here I was chatting with and he said that greensand will last about 10 years cause we were talking about it being a good/not good source of K. I believe Kempf said it lasts about 3 years in a highly biologically active soil.

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Yea I have an ORP meter setting in the original case only used it once or twice.I also keep 30% h202 on hand at all times..Id love to try something new and put the meter to use... ... I thought T. Hill was using the ORP to dial in his foliar mixes....? A fine line using h202 in the soil and keeping a microbial herd alive and working...Im all ears.[/FONT]

Yes I remember him adjusting teas and was like what?!? I have a high level of confidence he was doing soil applications. We chatted a bit about potential microbial loss in the soil and he basically said the increase in O2 levels would put the remaining bacteria into overdrive and the population would explode. I'm guessing soil fungi are a bit more resilient. I think a way to go would be to monitor sap of 2 plants, one adjusted for ORP and the other not, and watch what happens. That might help get it dialed in better.

The whole thing about using H2O2 in soil is a contentious one yet I think OK. I talked to Solvay at length about this issue and they have a powder and granular calcium peroxide product they've tested using at the bottoms of holes when transplanting trees and a lot of success. I gave some to Rev and he loved it except there was a wicked pH swing once the calcium was utilized. He had to account for the calcium in his mix and when it was gone pH crashed. I believe that type of calcium is very soluble and utilized easily. Not slow release like other sources.

According to Solvay the juice box manufacturers use a 50% H2O2 solution AND high heat to sterilize the boxes prior to filling. I think it would take a huge amount of super strong H2O2 to do some serious damage to soil microbial life.