Terpene profile: Sinsemilla v.s. seeded

[Only Ornamental]

I hope this isn't a re-post...

I was wondering if there's a difference in the terpene profile (and maybe the amount of cannabinoids) of sinsemilla buds versus seeded ones.
There's a thread (unfortunately, I can't find it again) explaining the different glands and their purposes. So I thought that maybe the cannabis plants, because they realise whether or not they've been pollinated, change the secondary metabolite composition of the trichomes on their flowers after pollination or during seed maturation. Seems logic because the needs (p. ex. for protection by the calyces) of early flowers and seeds are different.
If so, that might explain why the trip of old school weed was allegedly different than the one of modern hybrids...

What do you think? Is there literature to back it up?

 

[shaggyballs]

Yes I agree.....When a female goes unfertilized it will ooze more resin to insure reproduction.
Once it has been pollinated it will put it's effort into seed production instead of resin ect.
Less resin usually = less terpenes

The same strain full of seeds will not taste as good or be as potent as the not pollinated version.
This I have seen for myself!!!!

Take some bag weed , find the bud with the most seeds , then find one with none at all.
Both buds should be approximately the same shape and size.
Roll one of each ......I bet you could tell the difference blindfolded.

If you want to know why.......I cant help as I have no notes on the subject.

Terpenes are usually for a defense mechanism and may remain unaffected by pollination.
But if you lose resin than terpenes are lost by default.
This hinges on the common belief that terpenes are found in the resin glands of cannabis!

Here is some good info on terpenes.
https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=275717

 

[Only Ornamental]

Hi Shaggy,

'When a female goes unfertilized it will ooze more resin to insure reproduction.
Once it has been pollinated it will put it's effort into seed production instead of resin ect.
Less resin usually = less terpenes'
I know that it will produce more flowers for that purpous and, with enough seeds on the plant, stop producing more and use its resources for the seeds. I'm not that sure whether an unpollinated flower will have more trichomes on the corresponding calyx.

The same strain full of seeds will not taste as good or be as potent as the not pollinated version.
This I have seen for myself!!!!
Take some bag weed , find the bud with the most seeds , then find one with none at all.
Both buds should be approximately the same shape and size.
Roll one of each ......I bet you could tell the difference blindfolded.
Can't say that from my experience... Additionally, most imported hash and charas comes from seeded plants. If there'd be such a difference, people would probably go for sinsemilla production.

If you want to know why.......I cant help as I have no notes on the subject.
I always want to know why .

Terpenes are usually for a defense mechanism and may remain unaffected by pollination.
The 'may' or 'may not' is precisely my question. The defense mechanism of or the threat for a flower are likely not the same than for seeds. Often, biology/evolution takes that into account and adapts in the best way (maybe by changing resin composition?).

But if you lose resin than terpenes are lost by default.
This hinges on the common belief that terpenes are found in the resin glands of cannabis!
Belief? It's a fact that the resin glands contain the highest amount of terpenes. I'm not after the amount of resin or terpenes within but the composition and relative amounts of the different individual constituents.

Here is some good info on terpenes.
You may not know this, but terpenes are part of my educational knowledge... Although, how and if they have a THC trip modulating activity (i.e. in vivo effect) has yet to be proven. I suppose, based on several facts, that monoterpenes play a negligible (if at all) role. Maybe it's sesqui- or diterpenes or minor cannabinoids?

Thanks anyway for the reply

 

[peacebrother]

I grew several plants last round the had seeded branches , the seeded branches were covered in trics . The smoke was just as good as the non seeded buds from the same plant, I could not tell if there was a terpene difference.

 

[Only Ornamental]

I grew several plants last round the had seeded branches , the seeded branches were covered in trics . The smoke was just as good as the non seeded buds from the same plant, I could not tell if there was a terpene difference.

AFAIK already a few dozen seeds, even when just on one branch, will trigger a response (i.e. less new flowers) in the WHOLE plant. Therefore, the chemical composition of all the trichomes on the plant should change accordingly... at least, that's my theory...

@Shaggy
A problem why seeded buds may be less 'comfortable' to smoke are tiny immature seeds and resin loss due to pulling seeds out bare-handed.

 

[shaggyballs]

terpenes are part of my educational knowledge

When we were in conversation I could tell your statements were backed by a good education!
But I had no idea, what a useful tool to have.
Me I am uneducated and stumbling through things with a lot of help from powerful minds like yours.

@Shaggy
A problem why seeded buds may be less 'comfortable' to smoke are tiny immature seeds and resin loss due to pulling seeds out bare-handed.
That makes good sense!
You got me thinkin now!!

Often, biology/evolution takes that into account and adapts in the best way (maybe by changing resin composition?).
Interesting!

Plant defense is strange:
I read that a plant in distress will send out a signal to attract the appropriate predator to relieve the distress.

This hinges on the common belief that terpenes are found in the resin glands of cannabis!
Belief? It's a fact that the resin glands contain the highest amount of terpenes. I'm not after the amount of resin or terpenes within but the composition and relative amounts of the different individual constituents.

That is my opinion also..but another member stated :
If this were the case then dry sift kief should taste almost like the weed.
That got me thinkin too!

I hope you can get something out of this.
It is above my pay grade.
Shag

 

[Only Ornamental]

If this were the case then dry sift kief should taste almost like the weed.

Why? It's not just the essential oil that gives the smoke its taste. Additionally, the scent of an essential oil is not just determined by the nature of its constituents but by their absolute and more importantly relative amounts. And 'most' may be everything above 50%, so there's still a bit in the other parts. Also, the intensity of a smell does not strictly correlate with the amount. Some terpenes smell extremely strong whilst others are nearly odourless. Also, the aroma may change with the quantity; floral in weak concentrations and plain disgusting in high ones.

THANKS A LOT FOR THE PDF!!

 

[shaggyballs]

Why? It's not just the essential oil that gives the smoke its taste. Additionally, the scent of an essential oil is not just determined by the nature of its constituents but by their absolute and more importantly relative amounts. And 'most' may be everything above 50%, so there's still a bit in the other parts. Also, the intensity of a smell does not strictly correlate with the amount. Some terpenes smell extremely strong whilst others are nearly odourless. Also, the aroma may change with the quantity; floral in weak concentrations and plain disgusting in high ones.

THANKS A LOT FOR THE PDF!!

Hope it helps.
Thanks for the FACTS on the subject!
This has been enlightening
Thank you
Shag

 

[TommyJay]

Now I am not a scientist I'm just going off of intuition here but, I would think that a seeded plant would produce a wider range of terpenes to protect the developing seeds from pests and the environment i.e intense uv rays from the sun and HID lights. Also cannabis has evolved for the purpose of reproduction... Just like every other organism on the beautiful planet has. So in my humble opinion unseeded cannabis is missing something, including certain terpenes it might not produce in unseeded bud. If terpenes add to or modulate the high in some way then this statement from Dj Short will back this up somewhat...

I do tend to favor the experience provided by seeded vs. seedless herb, this includes the hash made from either. There are a number of reasons for this—I’ve had experience with both having raised a fair amount of seeds and sinsemilla, and the best herb I’ve ever experienced was seeded (and hermaphroditic). We must differentiate between ‘herb’ and ‘hash’.

First, the hash: I am not certain about the Afghani or the Nepalese, but I recall that Moroccan and Lebanese hashes were both made from seeded herb. I imagine that most commercial hash is produced from outdoor-grown or wild plants that would have at least a few seeds. But the best domestic hash I’ve yet to try definitely came from seeded herb.

Some of the best domestic hash I’ve experienced came from Switzerland where the Spice of Life crew did an R & D project with a few of my strains. The photo on the cover of my book is actually ‘Blue Satellite’ (not Blueberry as cited) and much of that hash came from that plant (seeded) and her siblings. Ice water extraction and the wastewater was amethyst purple colored with many (large) gland-heads found in the 160-micron bag, and there was a good amount from the 75- and 45-micron bags as well. The ‘ball’ was a marbled mix of blue/grey and gold/brown and was impossibly tacky at room temperature. The hash needed to be flattened between cellophane and placed in the freezer for a bit to be manageable. The experience was surreally pleasant under any conditions, very clear-headed and focused, yet with a well balanced, uninhibited detach—flavor of subtle sweet/savory/musky in a full-melt, clear-dome putty that left yellow oil found where the bubbles formed the day prior. Truly a master-crafted product!

From rubbings (finger and scissor) to ice water or dry sieve extraction, the concentrate from the seeded herb provided an experience superior to the hash from the seedless varieties. The difference is subtle and perhaps requires an acquired taste, but I do tend to appreciate the product from the seeded vs. seedless herb. Ways to describe it are; ‘broader’, ‘more complex’, usually more ‘calming’. Another aspect would be that seeded product causes a more ‘even’ experience, while the seedless seems to have more ‘peaks and valleys’ to its spectrum of effect. (Incidentally, the issue of ‘spectrum of effect’ is an important means by which to judge herb and hash—more on that another time.) Therefore, the experience from the hash made from seedless herb tends to be a little ‘narrower’, ‘less complex’, and usually a little more ‘up’ (depending on strain), and the experience from the seeded product tends to be ‘broader’, more evenly spread, more ‘mellow’ and complex. Again, please realize that these differences are subtle, yet in my experience valid.

Peace and love!!

 

[Only Ornamental]

Now I am not a scientist I'm just going off of intuition here but, I would think that a seeded plant would produce a wider range of terpenes to protect the developing seeds from pests and the environment i.e intense uv rays from the sun and HID lights. Also cannabis has evolved for the purpose of reproduction... Just like every other organism on the beautiful planet has. So in my humble opinion unseeded cannabis is missing something, including certain terpenes it might not produce in unseeded bud. If terpenes add to or modulate the high in some way then this statement from Dj Short will back this up somewhat...

First of all: Nice quote! Was looking for something like that.

Now to your statements (don't take my nitpicking criticism personal):

'a wider range of terpenes to protect the developing seeds'
The plant is likely to protect flowers too (or produce tremendous amounts to be sure some survive, the way cannabis produces pollen in excess). A gamete is way more fragile than a dark coloured, thick-shelled seed and also require its share of protection. Maybe a gamete (or a flower) needs more protection from UV and chemical challenges whereas a seed needs protection from predatory birds. This doesn't imply a wider range of different terpenes but maybe a completely different resin composition. A hypothetical example would be: During flowering cannabinoids and myrcene agains UV and fungi, during early seed maturation limonene agains caterpillars and in late seed maturation caryophyllene and cineole to repel birds and attract beneficial insects like ladybugs. (This example is made up and has no scientific value!)

'intense uv rays from the sun and HID lights'
Intense UV from common HIDs: ROFLMFAO (no further comment on that one)

'So in my humble opinion unseeded cannabis is missing something, including certain terpenes it might not produce in unseeded bud.'
Yes, in a biological way it is missing something but that lack may push the plant to intervene. It already produces a lot more flowers and may also change resin content. I don't see why it should lack terpenes though; a well seeded plant could also decide that 'life is good and nothing needs to be done', so save the effort and stop producing resin LoL.

'If terpenes add to or modulate the high in some way...'
Right, but it may also be that the lack or exchange of a certain constituent causes the seeded herb to please DJ Short better. Who knows? And maybe someone prefers the trip of sinsemilla and thinks that seeded one is crap?

 

[TommyJay]

Lol yeah the intense UV rays from HID lights wasn't thought out properly, I dig your criticism tho..it helps me expand my knowledge on this subject that I find very fascinating! I enjoyed your hypothetical example it is good food for thought.

The plant is likely to protect flowers too (or produce tremendous amounts to be sure some survive, the way cannabis produces pollen in excess). A gamete is way more fragile than a dark coloured, thick-shelled seed and also require its share of protection. Maybe a gamete (or a flower) needs more protection from UV and chemical challenges whereas a seed needs protection from predatory birds. This doesn't imply a wider range of different terpenes but maybe a completely different resin composition. A hypothetical example would be: During flowering cannabinoids and myrcene agains UV and fungi, during early seed maturation limonene agains caterpillars and in late seed maturation caryophyllene and cineole to repel birds and attract beneficial insects like ladybugs. (This example is made up and has no scientific value!)

 

[chappie]

Seems like something a simple side-by-side using clones would answer rapidly. Myself, I have never noticed a difference between seeded and unseeded herbs of the same cut. I do not think I have DJ's super-tasting abilities though. I tend to observe that sinsemilla yields more product, but I also am not afraid of seeded herb; it is definitely not automatically weak or underflavored.

 

[Only Ornamental]

Problem with the side-by-side is the different time for maturity of seeded versus sinsemilla weed paired with the terpene profile which anyway changes over time and with proceeding maturity...
If we'd knew what changes and when (how fast after pollination) one could imagine to grow sinsemilla and lets say pollinate two weeks prior to harvest to have on one hand a 'seeded terpene profile' and on the other hand all the advantages of sinsemilla buds .

 

[TommyJay]

Myself, I have never noticed a difference between seeded and unseeded herbs of the same cut.

Indeed same here although my experience on the matter is very limited. I just find the subtle aspects of this wonderful plant very mysterious and delightful. As I only cultivate the herb for my personal head stash I strive for the best effects and taste/scents.... And I feel that those 2 criteria may somewhat be two sides of the same coin if that makes sense? Here is another quote from Dj short on the matter...sorry for all the Dj quotes I just find his ideas really resonate with my views on this plant!!

Regarding a clue to the equatorial "Holy Grail" such as the Highland Oaxaca and Santa Marta Gold (South and Central American varieties) a certain, unmistakable flavor comes to mind: that of incense cedar/frankincense/burgundy/floral with spicy/savory undertones. Coffee, chocolate and fine tobacco were also present, but the sweet incense cedar is what I most recall from the Highland Oaxaca and Colombian Gold varieties. The Thai was more complex with more spicy/savory aspects atop a finely distilled burgundy (probably more from the cure) and sort of a "dying" floral, sickly-sweet aroma that was unmistakeably Thai herb (sometimes from Hawaiian as well).

It also might be fruitful to sift through Sam the Skunkmans posts as I know he has done similar research with terpenes in the past.

The fear of seeded cannabis may come from the fact that at one point we have all more than likely scored a bad bag of schwag and associated the poor quality to the seeds in there. When it was more then likely other factors contributing to the bad quality. I could be way off tho!

Peace and love!!

 

[chappie]

Seeds are a hassle when you are purchasing herb to roll up, and in the past indicated sloppy growing... but as someone who vapes, I don't mind them anymore. They are easy to filter out while grinding, and even if some seed material slips in, its not nasty like combusting seed is.

I also deeply resonate with DJ's writing. I would love the day to come when rigorous science can be applied to his philosophies (and I think his colleague Chimera is doing this kind of work as we speak).

 

[BredForMeds]

instead of all this talking. how about some 1 does a side by side. n has them tested.,. full plants 1 with 1 without seed.. not that I pollinated a branch shit.. I have made hash from my seed runs. and from my sensi .. couldn't tell a difference.. sept the seeded was lil more couchlock. but I think kuz I waited till the seeds were ALL DONe.. so went a lil longer.

 

[Only Ornamental]

...a side by side. n has them tested...

Easy, every ICMAG grower has a UPLC-MS or a GC-FID with the whole range of standards at home .

 

[Sam_Skunkman]

Yet to be proven? To whom, you? Ask anyone that has tried terpene's like me.
The reason I know about the effects terpenes have in modulating the high is simple. I smoked 100% pure THC maybe 15 years ago, and found the high lacking, as RCC said if this was the Cannabis high he would not bother to smoke Cannabis. Anyway I then put the same total weight as the pure THC but this time I added some of my dry sift, (which is terpene rich), 1/2 of the same weight. The effects were obvious to all who tried the tests, maybe a dozen serious smokers like me and RCC.
The same weight gave much much better high, even though the THC levels were lower in the 100% pure THC/resin maybe 50% THC mix. That made me feel that I was right about my feelings that terpenes help modify the effects of THC.
I then got the 100% pure THC and mixed in just a very tiny amount of a terpene, I tried the top 12 and found several that made THC stronger and some like Myrcene made the THC high more narcotic, couchlock, stronger then 100% pure THC. Some like limonene contribute to the up , clear, speedy, psychadelic effects.
This was confirmed by an organolepctic test of 100 questions before and after the tests which were for one THC/terpene combo a day. The testing was double blind.
Every single smoker was in general agreement abut the modulation of the THC.

Think another way, most western bred Cannabis is only THC, where do all the different effects found in Cannabis come from? I say THC+ terpenes, over 130 have been found in Cannabis so far.

I realize everyone I told this to found it hard to believe terpenes could modify the THC effects so much, but many many people now have confirmed that terpenes are the key to more potent THC.

Also terpene production is cut in half by seeding, here is the proof:

http://www.internationalhempassociation.org/jiha/jiha5107.html

-SamS

.internationalhempassociation.org/jiha/jiha5107.html

Hi Shaggy,

'When a female goes unfertilized it will ooze more resin to insure reproduction.
Once it has been pollinated it will put it's effort into seed production instead of resin ect.
Less resin usually = less terpenes'
I know that it will produce more flowers for that purpous and, with enough seeds on the plant, stop producing more and use its resources for the seeds. I'm not that sure whether an unpollinated flower will have more trichomes on the corresponding calyx.

The same strain full of seeds will not taste as good or be as potent as the not pollinated version.
This I have seen for myself!!!!
Take some bag weed , find the bud with the most seeds , then find one with none at all.
Both buds should be approximately the same shape and size.
Roll one of each ......I bet you could tell the difference blindfolded.
Can't say that from my experience... Additionally, most imported hash and charas comes from seeded plants. If there'd be such a difference, people would probably go for sinsemilla production.

If you want to know why.......I cant help as I have no notes on the subject.
I always want to know why .

Terpenes are usually for a defense mechanism and may remain unaffected by pollination.
The 'may' or 'may not' is precisely my question. The defense mechanism of or the threat for a flower are likely not the same than for seeds. Often, biology/evolution takes that into account and adapts in the best way (maybe by changing resin composition?).

But if you lose resin than terpenes are lost by default.
This hinges on the common belief that terpenes are found in the resin glands of cannabis!
Belief? It's a fact that the resin glands contain the highest amount of terpenes. I'm not after the amount of resin or terpenes within but the composition and relative amounts of the different individual constituents.

Here is some good info on terpenes.
You may not know this, but terpenes are part of my educational knowledge... Although, how and if they have a THC trip modulating activity (i.e. in vivo effect) has yet to be proven. I suppose, based on several facts, that monoterpenes play a negligible (if at all) role. Maybe it's sesqui- or diterpenes or minor cannabinoids?

Thanks anyway for the reply

 

[Sam_Skunkman]

Here is some good info on terpenes.
You may not know this, but terpenes are part of my educational knowledge... Although, how and if they have a THC trip modulating activity (i.e. in vivo effect) has yet to be proven. I suppose, based on several facts, that monoterpenes play a negligible (if at all) role. Maybe it's sesqui- or diterpenes or minor cannabinoids?

Thanks anyway for the reply

Wrong, monoterpens, like Myrcene and Limonene do modify the Cannabis THC high.
Maybe it is time to go back to school?
I do know this.
It has been proven over and over, just not in print in an science article you can find..
-SamS

 

[Sam_Skunkman]

I do. And a couple of HPLC's.
-SamS

Easy, every ICMAG grower has a UPLC-MS or a GC-FID with the whole range of standards at home .